Antenna Quality vs Transceiver Wattage

[WRXD746]

Background:  I've been told that antenna quality means more than transceiver wattage.

Situation:  I live in the hills of middle Tennessee where LOS is minimal and repeaters are scarce.  I also work in the Birmingham, AL, area where the situation is the same. Actually, there are more repeaters there but LOS is still an issue coupled with the density of trees and buildings so reaching those repeaters is a pain.

Current Antenna:  Motorola NMO mounted on 6" aluminum disk for ground plane attached to roof rail on top of my SUV.

Question:  What antenna gives the best performance for my situation and how does transceiver wattage play a part in making sure that antenna actually reaches the repeaters for BVLOS communications?  (opinions don't mean much to me as I deal in actual verifiable data everyday and value that more than anything else)

Thanks in advance.

[kidphc]

For relatively flat ground look towards 5/8th over 5/8th whip antennas. Most all the antennas are going to be the same, same with the antenna physics. Just will come down to how long it lasts, this excludes repeater and tower antennas.

Also just because you don't have a visual line of sight, doesn't mean the repeater doesn't.

Ever climb a 100ft tower or go up more than 20 floors in a building. Impressive how far you can see, especially on flat (nearly) land. I love how when i go to my eye doctor (13th floor) I can see from Rockville, MD to antenna towers 20-40 miles away with ease.



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[kidphc]

The only problem/question I have with your reply is that I'm not in flat ground unless I go out west (which is 1/100th of my use cases),
I'm also a fan of low profile everything but it competes with my need for absolute best case usage. That's why I have the "ghost" NMO antenna now - which has good reviews but as I'm still new to this game, I'm not 100% sure that its the best case for my needs.  I currently use handheld radios for everything but I'm in the market for a mobile version to go in my vehicle. Which is the real reason for asking this question.  I can't help but think that 50W is going to push a signal farther than 20W. Yet I know that the antenna is what propogates/gathers that signal.  So before I drop $350 on a KG-1000G, I want to make sure I have the whole picture of the system and make sure it maximizes my use in hills/mountains/heavily treed areas with shit ton of buildings in the urban areas.

You have described my area. DC being piedmont, we have massive rolling hills. It's almost 1000 foot jagged down hill from my house to D.C. in a topographic study.

Wattage helps when you are on the fringe and especially when the leaves are wet (large amount of trees here). So a majority of the time the 20 watts are enough especially for a repeater. Running on the highway the 50 watts start shining when we start out running each other's range, it will take if from "no copy" to "i think you said".

Never had good luck with the ghost antennas on car to car, worked well with the repeaters. The gmrs repeaters out here are out of the world especially for the topography, once again thank you Washville.

Back to car to car, I try to run 5/8ths at a minimum, 5/8th over 5/8th perferred. Wife hates it because it sounds like the roof is going to rip off with all the parking garages.

Remember 20w to 50w is about 1 S unit or about 3db. Only testing will show if it is worthwhile in your use case. Wish you were closer would loan you both for about a month to determine if it was worth it.

I will say going from an ht to an ht with an external antenna is a big step up. But going to a 20W mobile with a good antenna setup is a world of difference. Almost night and day on transmit and receive. DB20G (and its clones) are cheap and relatively easy to sell. I have one setup with a DIY indoor blade antenna for a secondary base antenna to get to a local shopping mall where an ht wouldn't cut it. It gets ripped out and thrown in the van with an external mag mount for roadtrips.

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[WRXD746]

27 minutes ago, kidphc said:

For relatively flat ground look towards 5/8th over 5/8th whip antennas. Most all the antennas are going to be the same, same with the antenna physics. Just will come down to how long it lasts, this excludes repeater and tower antennas.

Also just because you don't have a visual line of sight, doesn't mean the repeater doesn't.

Ever climb a 100ft tower or go up more than 20 floors in a building. Impressive how far you can see, especially on flat (nearly) land. I love how when i go to my eye doctor (13th floor) I can see from Rockville, MD to antenna towers 20-40 miles away with ease.



Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
 

The only problem/question I have with your reply is that I'm not in flat ground unless I go out west (which is 1/100th of my use cases),

I'm also a fan of low profile everything but it competes with my need for absolute best case usage. That's why I have the "ghost" NMO antenna now - which has good reviews but as I'm still new to this game, I'm not 100% sure that its the best case for my needs.  I currently use handheld radios for everything but I'm in the market for a mobile version to go in my vehicle. Which is the real reason for asking this question.  I can't help but think that 50W is going to push a signal farther than 20W. Yet I know that the antenna is what propogates/gathers that signal.  So before I drop $350 on a KG-1000G, I want to make sure I have the whole picture of the system and make sure it maximizes my use in hills/mountains/heavily treed areas with shit ton of buildings in the urban areas.

[WRXD746]

22 minutes ago, kidphc said:

You have described my area. DC being piedmont, we have massive rolling hills. It's almost 1000 foot jagged down hill from my house to D.C. in a topographic study.

Wattage helps when you are on the fringe and especially when the leaves are wet (large amount of trees here). So a majority of the time the 20 watts are enough especially for a repeater. Running on the highway the 50 watts start shining when we start out running each other's range, it will take if from "no copy" to "i think you said".

Never had good luck with the ghost antennas on car to car, worked well with the repeaters. The gmrs repeaters out here are out of the world especially for the topography, once again thank you Washville.

Back to car to car, I try to run 5/8ths at a minimum, 5/8th over 5/8th perferred. Wife hates it because it sounds like the roof is going to rip off with all the parking garages.

Remember 20w to 50w is about 1 S unit or about 3db. Only testing will show if it is worthwhile in your use case. Wish you were closer would loan you both for about a month to determine if it was worth it.

I will say going from an ht to an ht with an external antenna is a big step up. But going to a 20W mobile with a good antenna setup is a world of difference. Almost night and day on transmit and receive. DB20G (and its clones) are cheap and relatively easy to sell. I have one setup with a DIY indoor blade antenna for a secondary base antenna to get to a local shopping mall where an ht wouldn't cut it. It gets ripped out and thrown in the van with an external mag mount for roadtrips.

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Ok. This is starting to make a little more sense. And I’m assuming that “ht” is a handheld radio. If so, then yes, hooking up to my external antenna made a big difference even across fields where the normal antenna would suck inside a vehicle. 
 

Just to clarify what you’re telling me, a 20W radio with a good antenna could expect to get decent to good reception in areas like ours as well as expect to ping the repeaters that are BVLOS? Correct?  Is there an average distance radius that you could put on that?

[kidphc]

Ok. This is starting to make a little more sense. And I’m assuming that “ht” is a handheld radio. If so, then yes, hooking up to my external antenna made a big difference even across fields where the normal antenna would suck inside a vehicle. 
 
Just to clarify what you’re telling me, a 20W radio with a good antenna could expect to get decent to good reception in areas like ours as well as expect to ping the repeaters that are BVLOS? Correct?  Is there an average distance radius that you could put on that?

20w watts will get you further than a walkie. It's 4x more powerful than an ht (handie talkie, hand-held, walkie-talkie) most are only 5 watts, some are lower on UHF/GMRS frequencies.

Distance is subjective and varies due to 1000 factors. Only testing will get you the truth for your environments. Dont agree completely with Randy, but i use his farzz.. because frankly its the right way to explain it.

I have spoken to a guy 70+ miles on simplex. I was using a ht on Sugarloaf Mountain, some 1500ft above sea level, 1200+ above the level surface below, and he was on the Shenandoah Ridge with a yagi (probably 1800-2000 above sea level. They were doing most of the work with the signal. Mean while my ht can barely make 3 blocks in my neighborhood under normal circumstances.

Keep in mind also that a phantom style antenna will have a very round radiating pattern with no gain to about 3dbi. When you get a 36" long 5/8 over 5/8 you are going to be between 3dbi to 8dbi. Without getting into other stuff, raw power-wise wise on power a 20W radio with 8dBi will be around 60W-160W (effective radiating power) where the phantom would be theoretically 20W-60W ERP.

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[WRYZ926]

I'll give an example of how going from 20 wats to 50 watts makes a difference. There is a GMRS repeater about 50 miles away from me. Their antennas are at 100 ft above ground. I am running a Comet CA-712EFC that is 22 ft above ground. I do have a clear line of sight as far as terrain goes but there are trees that I have to deal with.

I can get into it with a 20 watt Wouxun KG-XS20G but I have quite a bit of static on my signal. My signal is clean with no static when using my KG-1000G. In this case, the extra 30 watts does not give me any further range but it helps make my transmissions clearer.

There are all kinds of factors that come into play. The biggest are local terrain, buildings, and trees/foliage. You may or may not see an increase in range going from 20 watts to 50 watts. What that extra power will do is it will generally make your signal clearer to others.

@WRXD746 You didn't state exactly what antenna you are using. Is it a 1/4 wave, 1/2 wave, or 5/8 wave?

Increasing the ground plane from 6 inches to 12 inches will help. I run a Tram 1174 1/2 wave antenna tuned for GMRS on my SUV and a Comet 2x4SR on my truck and SxS. From my personal experience the 5/8 wave antenna out performs the 1/2 wave antenna and both will out perform a 1/4 wave antenna.

Using roof racks is problematic since you don't get a good ground plane. Again increasing your plate fro 6 inches to 12 inches will help.

[WRUE951]

34 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

I'll give an example of how going from 20 wats to 50 watts makes a difference. There is a GMRS repeater about 50 miles away from me. Their antennas are at 100 ft above ground. I am running a Comet CA-712EFC that is 22 ft above ground. I do have a clear line of sight as far as terrain goes but there are trees that I have to deal with.

I can get into it with a 20 watt Wouxun KG-XS20G but I have quite a bit of static on my signal. My signal is clean with no static when using my KG-1000G. In this case, the extra 30 watts does not give me any further range but it helps make my transmissions clearer.

There are all kinds of factors that come into play. The biggest are local terrain, buildings, and trees/foliage. You may or may not see an increase in range going from 20 watts to 50 watts. What that extra power will do is it will generally make your signal clearer to others.

@WRXD746 You didn't state exactly what antenna you are using. Is it a 1/4 wave, 1/2 wave, or 5/8 wave?

Increasing the ground plane from 6 inches to 12 inches will help. I run a Tram 1174 1/2 wave antenna tuned for GMRS on my SUV and a Comet 2x4SR on my truck and SxS. From my personal experience the 5/8 wave antenna out performs the 1/2 wave antenna and both will out perform a 1/4 wave antenna.

Using roof racks is problematic since you don't get a good ground plane. Again increasing your plate fro 6 inches to 12 inches will help.

Wattage and distance do correlate..  I've proven this as well using the same antenna same line of site comms but different power levels.   Wattage does prove to be a winner appositely.  

[BoxCar]

Wattage increases the amount of RF in the same area but does not increase range to any appreciable amount with UHF radios. I have two antennas I use for mobile communications, a Comet 2X4SR and a Signal Stalker from Signal Stick. The Signal Stalker is the shorter of the two and performs very well in the Blue Ridge mountains of western North Carolina. The Comet is used when I'm in more of a fixed location as its slight gain helps.

[WRUE951]

1 hour ago, BoxCar said:

Wattage increases the amount of RF in the same area but does not increase range to any appreciable amount with UHF radios. I have two antennas I use for mobile communications, a Comet 2X4SR and a Signal Stalker from Signal Stick. The Signal Stalker is the shorter of the two and performs very well in the Blue Ridge mountains of western North Carolina. The Comet is used when I'm in more of a fixed location as its slight gain helps.

Appreciable,, how about night and day..    I've proven this on a 90 mile hop up in the Sierras and 40 wats vs. 20 wats means more than 'appreciable' difference..  

[BoxCar]

40 watts vs 20 watts just means your signal had twice the RF density at the repeater.

[SteveShannon]

40 watts versus 20 watts is half of an S unit. 

[WRYZ926]

The human ear won't detect the difference with half an S unit. Most people can't hear the difference in one S Unit.

1 S unit equals 6 dB. And you have to quadruple the power output for one S unit of improvement. That is why most will notice a difference between 5 watts and 20 watts. And also why going from 20 or 25 watts to 40 or 50 watts is not going to make much difference.

In my situation, the 20 watt radio was getting into the repeater but the extra 30 watts helped punch through the leaves. But no one notices a difference between my 20 watt radio and my 50 watt radio when I am talking on our repeater which is only 22.5 miles away from me. Now they do notice a difference when I am outside on a hand held radio.

[TNFrank]

Wattage is nice and a good antenna will definitely help but elevation is king. I can hit a Repeater 16 miles away with a 5 watt radio even with a quality stubby antenna because the Repeater is very high up on a mountain.  With the same radio and my best antenna I can't talk to a buddy 3 miles away. I can just make 1 mile to another friend on his HT because of the suburban area we're in with all the trees and houses filled with fat people.

If we both could both put up a 50 foot antenna we'd probably be able to easily cover the 3 miles and maybe even more.

[WRXD746]

On 10/26/2025 at 3:23 PM, WRYZ926 said:

I'll give an example of how going from 20 wats to 50 watts makes a difference. There is a GMRS repeater about 50 miles away from me. Their antennas are at 100 ft above ground. I am running a Comet CA-712EFC that is 22 ft above ground. I do have a clear line of sight as far as terrain goes but there are trees that I have to deal with.

I can get into it with a 20 watt Wouxun KG-XS20G but I have quite a bit of static on my signal. My signal is clean with no static when using my KG-1000G. In this case, the extra 30 watts does not give me any further range but it helps make my transmissions clearer.

There are all kinds of factors that come into play. The biggest are local terrain, buildings, and trees/foliage. You may or may not see an increase in range going from 20 watts to 50 watts. What that extra power will do is it will generally make your signal clearer to others.

@WRXD746 You didn't state exactly what antenna you are using. Is it a 1/4 wave, 1/2 wave, or 5/8 wave?

Increasing the ground plane from 6 inches to 12 inches will help. I run a Tram 1174 1/2 wave antenna tuned for GMRS on my SUV and a Comet 2x4SR on my truck and SxS. From my personal experience the 5/8 wave antenna out performs the 1/2 wave antenna and both will out perform a 1/4 wave antenna.

Using roof racks is problematic since you don't get a good ground plane. Again increasing your plate fro 6 inches to 12 inches will help.

I have no idea what wave the Motorola ghost antenna is as they don’t list it and haven’t responded to questions about it. 

[WRXD746]

On 10/26/2025 at 4:16 PM, BoxCar said:

Wattage increases the amount of RF in the same area but does not increase range to any appreciable amount with UHF radios. I have two antennas I use for mobile communications, a Comet 2X4SR and a Signal Stalker from Signal Stick. The Signal Stalker is the shorter of the two and performs very well in the Blue Ridge mountains of western North Carolina. The Comet is used when I'm in more of a fixed location as its slight gain helps.

This may be the best answer yet. Density vs range makes a lot of sense.  I’ve just about decided against the 50W options. But that detachable face on the KG-1000G is very tempting due to limited space. There are obviously smaller units with no display but I’m blind up close and can’t see the display they put on the mics. 

[WRXD746]

This is what I did for mounting the antenna on my roof rails and added the 6” diameter 5052 aluminum disc for a ground plane. No significant wind noise either. The base is printed from PETG-CF.

[WRXD746]

I’d also like to plug a fellow vet making antennas. Check out ZBM2 Industries out of San Diego. 

[WRUE951]

On 10/26/2025 at 6:27 PM, WRYZ926 said:

The human ear won't detect the difference with half an S unit. Most people can't hear the difference in one S Unit.

1 S unit equals 6 dB. And you have to quadruple the power output for one S unit of improvement. That is why most will notice a difference between 5 watts and 20 watts. And also why going from 20 or 25 watts to 40 or 50 watts is not going to make much difference.

In my situation, the 20 watt radio was getting into the repeater but the extra 30 watts helped punch through the leaves. But no one notices a difference between my 20 watt radio and my 50 watt radio when I am talking on our repeater which is only 22.5 miles away from me. Now they do notice a difference when I am outside on a hand held radio.

try talking to someone 90 miles out.  The extra power is much more appreciative and a whole lot less 10-9'sssss.  

[WRUE951]

5 minutes ago, WRXD746 said:

This is what I did for mounting the antenna on my roof rails and added the 6” diameter 5052 aluminum disc for a ground plane. No significant wind noise either. The base is printed from PETG-CF.

pretty clever.  

[WRXD746]

On 10/26/2025 at 3:23 PM, WRYZ926 said:

I'll give an example of how going from 20 wats to 50 watts makes a difference. There is a GMRS repeater about 50 miles away from me. Their antennas are at 100 ft above ground. I am running a Comet CA-712EFC that is 22 ft above ground. I do have a clear line of sight as far as terrain goes but there are trees that I have to deal with.

I can get into it with a 20 watt Wouxun KG-XS20G but I have quite a bit of static on my signal. My signal is clean with no static when using my KG-1000G. In this case, the extra 30 watts does not give me any further range but it helps make my transmissions clearer.

There are all kinds of factors that come into play. The biggest are local terrain, buildings, and trees/foliage. You may or may not see an increase in range going from 20 watts to 50 watts. What that extra power will do is it will generally make your signal clearer to others.

@WRXD746 You didn't state exactly what antenna you are using. Is it a 1/4 wave, 1/2 wave, or 5/8 wave?

Increasing the ground plane from 6 inches to 12 inches will help. I run a Tram 1174 1/2 wave antenna tuned for GMRS on my SUV and a Comet 2x4SR on my truck and SxS. From my personal experience the 5/8 wave antenna out performs the 1/2 wave antenna and both will out perform a 1/4 wave antenna.

Using roof racks is problematic since you don't get a good ground plane. Again increasing your plate fro 6 inches to 12 inches will help.

Turns out the Midland (been saying Motorola incorrectly) is in fact a 5/8 wave antenna. 

[Lscott]

On 10/27/2025 at 2:03 PM, TNFrank said:

because of the suburban area we're in with all the trees and houses filled with fat people.

I didn't realize what was inhabiting houses could affect RF propagation so much.  You have any studies on the topic? 

[kidphc]

try talking to someone 90 miles out.  The extra power is much more appreciative and a whole lot less 10-9'sssss.  

Well to be fair at that sort of distance, every little bits help, even being on your tippy toes on the roof line would help as well.

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[WRUE951]

1 hour ago, kidphc said:

Well to be fair at that sort of distance, every little bits help, even being on your tippy toes on the roof line would help as well.

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everyone that says that extra power does not help a bit is smoking Hunters stash..   That's all I got to say.

[kidphc]

everyone that says that extra power does not help a bit is smoking Hunters stash..   That's all I got to say.

I tend to agree, but its not as drastic for most situations or as perceivable.

Kinda like having a 100 watt flashlight and then using a 120 watt flashlight. Yes, there is a difference but just how much and how perceivable is it. Think also dark woods vs in the city. But ever bit can help, somewhat imo.

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[WRUE951]

22 minutes ago, kidphc said:

I tend to agree, but its not as drastic for most situations or as perceivable.

Kinda like having a 100 watt flashlight and then using a 120 watt flashlight. Yes, there is a difference but just how much and how perceivable is it. Think also dark woods vs in the city. But ever bit can help, somewhat imo.

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If it can get that deer with the 120 wat flashlight and not see a shadow with the 100 Watt, guess what my preference will be..