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Do repeaters have to be part 95 accepted


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#1 Elkhunter521

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 06:32 PM

I believe that all transmitters require part95 acceptance. Does any mfg sell them?
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#2 PastorGary

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 04:13 AM

The vast majority of GMRS Repeaters are Part 90 Type Certified.  The technical standards in that regard are almost identical between Part 90 and Part 95 and we know of no instances where a station inspection netted a citation from the Commission for a licensed GMRS operator using a PROPERLY OPERATING Part 90 system in Part 95 service. If ANYONE has DOCUMENTATION of such a citation, please add to this thread with that data.

The Rules that were recently modified "seem" to address this partially -  Section 95.1761 Sub C, "No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in §95.1763, unless such transmitter is also certified for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required. No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service. All frequency determining circuitry (including crystals) and programming controls in each GMRS transmitter must be internal to the transmitter and must not be accessible from the exterior of the transmitter operating panel or from the exterior of the transmitter enclosure."

Also, refer to Section 95.335 - especially Sub A, "Except as provided in paragraph (a) of this section, no person shall operate a transmitter in any Personal Radio Service unless it is a certified transmitter; that is, a transmitter of a type which has obtained a grant of equipment certification for that service, pursuant to part 2, subpart J of this chapter. Use of a transmitter that is not FCC-certified voids the user's authority to operate that station. See sections 302(a), (b ), and (e) of the Communications Act (47 U.S.C. 302(a), (b ), and (e)).

(a) Exceptions. Under certain exceptions, non-certified Personal Radio Service transmitters, or transmitters certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated. Any such exceptions applicable to stations in a Personal Radio Service are set forth in the subpart governing that specific service. See e.g., §§95.735 and 95.1735."

 

Disclaimer: The Staff at MyGMRS is supplying this data as information only and assumes no liability for it's use by individuals. It is the responsibility of each licensed user to know and follow the most recent Rules covering the radio service that they are licensed for.


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#3 berkinet

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 01:16 PM

Ok... No argument with your interpretation. However, note the word repeater is never mentioned. Rather, they use the word transmitter. So, would that, by extension, allow any Part 90 compliant transmitter to be used in Part 95 service? Like as a base or fixed station? And, aren’t handhelds also transmitters?

BTW, Inalso found this in the FCC’s response to comments on the (at the time) proposed GMRS rules changes:

Several commenters are concerned that the proposal to prohibit combination radios would prevent GMRS licensees from using surplus Part 90 equipment in GMRS. See, e.g., Comments of Jerry Scott Parham at 3. This is not our intent. We will continue to certify equipment that meets the respective technical standards for Part 90 (land mobile) and Part 95 (GMRS) in both services, if requested. However, we are amending the language in new section 95.1761© to clarify the requirement in old section 95.655(a) that Part 95 GMRS radios will not be certified if they are equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service.
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#4 Elkhunter521

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 04:29 PM

Ok, repeaters are transmitters. Transmitters must be part 95 accepted.

Does any manufacturer sell one that is certified?
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#5 berkinet

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 05:46 PM

https://www.google.f...fied “repeater”

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#6 n4gix

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Posted 19 March 2018 - 07:23 PM

No, they don't need to be Part 95 necessarily. Read the "exceptions" cited above.



#7 Logan5

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Posted 19 March 2018 - 08:05 PM

Ok, repeaters are transmitters. Transmitters must be part 95 accepted.

Does any manufacturer sell one that is certified?

Yes Bridgecom and Riton are two I am aware of. but I think there are a few others as well.



#8 frogpilot

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:11 PM

Ok, I'm still confused. Does this mean that old part 90 radios are automatically certified for part 95 transmission? or does the manufacturer have to request, and be granted certification in both 90 and 95.  Can we ask the FCC what they mean?  "Hey, FCC, can I use my part 90 certified business class radio to legally transmit on all FRS/GMRS frequencies under my GMRS license?  If yes, what grants me the authority to do so?"  I have searched extensively and can find no FCC rules that expressly permit Part 90 radios to transmit on Part 95 FRS/GMRS freqs.  Did no one address this during the Part 95 NPRM discussion?  If so, what were the FCC's findings?  I have found very few Part 95 repeater capable mobile units and even fewer handhelds and would like to know that using readily available Part 90 radios is in compliance with the code.



#9 WRAF213

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:13 AM

Part 90 and 95 equipment require different type acceptances, and the requirements (if strictly adhered to) make them mutually exlusive. Since Part 90 has more stringent emission regulations than 95, it is generally accepted that using Part 90 equipment as Part 95 equipment is fine so long as all other Part 95 rules are followed to the fullest of the Part 90 radio's capabilities (such as transmit power and deviation). I suspect the FCC considered formalizing this under 95.1735 (see 95.335) but ultimately did not. Since the rule does not exists, the FCC will say no if you ask them to use a Part 90 radio on GMRS. Regardless, such a radio would never be allowed on FRS due to antenna restrictions intended to increase channel capacity by limiting range -- the FCC exercises control over these restrictions with Part 95 type acceptance.
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#10 PastorGary

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:21 PM

If anyone has verifiable official documentation that ANY GMRS licensee has ever been given an FCC citation for using a Part 90 Type Certified "transmitter" in Part 95 service, please add that documentation to this thread.  


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#11 WPXM352

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 01:08 AM

The vast majority of GMRS Repeaters are Part 90 Type Certified.  The technical standards in that regard are almost identical between Part 90 and Part 95 and we know of no instances where a station inspection netted a citation from the Commission for a licensed GMRS operator using a PROPERLY OPERATING Part 90 system in Part 95 service. If ANYONE has DOCUMENTATION of such a citation, please add to this thread with that data.

The Rules that were recently modified "seem" to address this partially -  Section 95.1761 Sub C, "No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in §95.1763, unless such transmitter is also certified for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required. No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service. All frequency determining circuitry (including crystals) and programming controls in each GMRS transmitter must be internal to the transmitter and must not be accessible from the exterior of the transmitter operating panel or from the exterior of the transmitter enclosure."

Also, refer to Section 95.335 - especially Sub A, "Except as provided in paragraph (a) of this section, no person shall operate a transmitter in any Personal Radio Service unless it is a certified transmitter; that is, a transmitter of a type which has obtained a grant of equipment certification for that service, pursuant to part 2, subpart J of this chapter. Use of a transmitter that is not FCC-certified voids the user's authority to operate that station. See sections 302(a), (b ), and (e) of the Communications Act (47 U.S.C. 302(a), (b ), and (e)).

(a) Exceptions. Under certain exceptions, non-certified Personal Radio Service transmitters, or transmitters certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated. Any such exceptions applicable to stations in a Personal Radio Service are set forth in the subpart governing that specific service. See e.g., §§95.735 and 95.1735."

 

Disclaimer: The Staff at MyGMRS is supplying this data as information only and assumes no liability for it's use by individuals. It is the responsibility of each licensed user to know and follow the most recent Rules covering the radio service that they are licensed for.

 

Interesting! See e.g., §§95.735 and 95.1735." Those sections are actually reserved. Could it be the FCC contemplates allowance for Part 90 equipment? This has been raised during the NPRM. To be honest, to be fully compliant with certification and to have a proper 50 watt 16K03FE or 20K0F3E emission as intended, requires one to choose from a small number of obsolete products. Some of them quite good, like Motorola Systems Sabers or Kenwood TK-8302H . I am actually building a repeater that will be 99% compliant. The PA is the 1 % problem.



#12 WPXM352

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 01:11 AM

If anyone has verifiable official documentation that ANY GMRS licensee has ever been given an FCC citation for using a Part 90 Type Certified "transmitter" in Part 95 service, please add that documentation to this thread.  

 

I have searched the FCC NAL listings going back many years and I have never seen an NAL for either type certification or for linking via any means. Honestly, the only NAL's I found were for corporate businesses blatantly using GMRS or that Bundy guy in California who happens to be a GMRS licensee jamming Part 90 users. GMRS has a pretty good record with the FCC.


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#13 WPXM352

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 01:14 AM

Ok, I'm still confused. Does this mean that old part 90 radios are automatically certified for part 95 transmission? or does the manufacturer have to request, and be granted certification in both 90 and 95.  Can we ask the FCC what they mean?  "Hey, FCC, can I use my part 90 certified business class radio to legally transmit on all FRS/GMRS frequencies under my GMRS license?  If yes, what grants me the authority to do so?"  I have searched extensively and can find no FCC rules that expressly permit Part 90 radios to transmit on Part 95 FRS/GMRS freqs.  Did no one address this during the Part 95 NPRM discussion?  If so, what were the FCC's findings?  I have found very few Part 95 repeater capable mobile units and even fewer handhelds and would like to know that using readily available Part 90 radios is in compliance with the code.

This is an interesting question. There may be some overlap where the rules permitted part 90 radios and the age of some older equipment. Hopefully your license is likewise that old.



#14 Radioguy7268

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 05:46 PM


BTW, I also found this in the FCC’s response to comments on the (at the time) proposed GMRS rules changes:

Several commenters are concerned that the proposal to prohibit combination radios would prevent GMRS licensees from using surplus Part 90 equipment in GMRS. See, e.g., Comments of Jerry Scott Parham at 3. This is not our intent. We will continue to certify equipment that meets the respective technical standards for Part 90 (land mobile) and Part 95 (GMRS) in both services, if requested. However, we are amending the language in new section 95.1761© to clarify the requirement in old section 95.655(a) that Part 95 GMRS radios will not be certified if they are equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service.

That's about as close to a smoking gun as you're going to get from the FCC. They are aware that people are using surplus Part 90 equipment - and they don't intend to anything to stop that use.

 

As others have mentioned, there's never been a single enforcement action by the FCC against anyone for using Part 90 equipment in Part 95.  If you've been around the block with the FCC a few times, you begin to realize that many of the rules have been written after the fact.


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