Weather Radio

[taco6513]

Would it be possible to use the VOX part of a GMRS radio to broadcast weather warnings from a NOAA weather radio? 

If so how could you do this? or Could it be connected to my Icom Fr-4000 repeater some how?

This would give another layer of communications to get the warnings out there.

Me and my guys are out and this would be good for my crew.

Thanks

WRCW870

[WRCY896]

I believe broadcasting is illegal for GMRS.

 

A lot of the radios have the capability to receive weather channels.

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/95.1733

[taco6513]

The way I read that is that weather warnings would be emergency traffic to protect life and property.

[berkinet]

#1. You cannot retransmit or relay signals from another service, except in case of an actual current emergency.

#2. The emergency must pose immediate severe threat to life or property..

 

Very few weather warnings would meet the standard. And, for those, there are other, better, alert systems already in place.

[WRAK968]

#1. You cannot retransmit or relay signals from another service, except in case of an actual current emergency.

#2. The emergency must pose immediate severe threat to life or property..

 

Very few weather warnings would meet the standard. And, for those, there are other, better, alert systems already in place.

I've spoken to Corey, who is in touch with the FCC field office. It is questionable as to the legality of re-transmitting an EAS message over GMRS. EAS messages when pertaining to serious or life threatening storms, tornado's, and even certain civil emergencys (amber alert for example) could be allowed under FCC rules which is what I think Taco is asking about. We have yet to hear back as to what the formal answer is.

 

There are systems that take the EAS message and translates it, simply transmitting a short tone followed by "Thunderstorm" or "Tornado" as well as the county affected. Such a transmission would be 100% legal as it does not rebroadcast any part of the EAS message or voice traffic from the weather station to my knowledge, however it would require the repeater to also identify itself.

[coryb27]

I've spoken to Corey, who is in touch with the FCC field office. It is questionable as to the legality of re-transmitting an EAS message over GMRS. EAS messages when pertaining to serious or life threatening storms, tornado's, and even certain civil emergencys (amber alert for example) could be allowed under FCC rules which is what I think Taco is asking about. We have yet to hear back as to what the formal answer is.

 

There are systems that take the EAS message and translates it, simply transmitting a short tone followed by "Thunderstorm" or "Tornado" as well as the county affected. Such a transmission would be 100% legal as it does not rebroadcast any part of the EAS message or voice traffic from the weather station to my knowledge, however it would require the repeater to also identify itself.

 

Not this Corey!

 

Now that you have my attention you will get my Opinion.

 

WX over GMRS, annoying to say the least. We have a garage repeater in my area that tells as the time, date, humidity, temp, ID and website every 30 min. As soon as a SAME WX alert comes thru it breaks in with the NWS for 2 full rotations of the message. To make matters worse it adds it to the end of the gibberish info it sends out every 30 min. Under a SAME alert this thing will spit out 5 min of worthless channel blocking information to nobody every 30 min. During this time the repeater is rendered useless and could hinder real emergency communications.

 

In my opinion this is not what GMRS is intended for, if you have a need to monitor a WX radio buy a weather radio and leave GMRS out of it. Last thing we need on our very limited amount of spectrum is GMRS repeaters broadcasting something that is already broadcast to most of our population.

[berkinet]

Would it be possible to use the VOX part of a GMRS radio to broadcast weather warnings from a NOAA weather radio? ...

 

... It is questionable as to the legality of re-transmitting an EAS message over GMRS. EAS messages when pertaining to serious or life threatening storms, tornado's, and even certain civil emergencies ...

 

Note the original post was about retransmitting NOAA weather broadcasts. Unless there was a means to determine which broadcasts fell into the "serious life and property threatening" category, blanket repeats of such broadcasts would not be legal.

 

If you limit the retransmissions to only EAS (Emergency Alert System) and then only retransmitted messages that pertained to the coverage area of the repeater, you might have a case.

 

Honestly however, there are already plenty of systems for relaying and receiving EAS messages and I am not sure what the benefit would be for adding a GMRS relay channel. Yes, it might be useful for those who monitor a given GMRS frequency (simplex or repeater) 24 hours a day.  If I lived in an area that is likely to have messages meeting the criteria of immediacy, I would probably sign up for a public alert service like NIXLE.

[taco6513]

Going to buy a weather radio to see how many alerts it gets. The only thing I see I don't like so far is the alert message runs for 3 minutes. 30 seconds would be fine, 3 minutes is way to long. 

[WRAK968]

Not this Corey!

 

Now that you have my attention you will get my Opinion.

 

WX over GMRS, annoying to say the least. We have a garage repeater in my area that tells as the time, date, humidity, temp, ID and website every 30 min. As soon as a SAME WX alert comes thru it breaks in with the NWS for 2 full rotations of the message. To make matters worse it adds it to the end of the gibberish info it sends out every 30 min. Under a SAME alert this thing will spit out 5 min of worthless channel blocking information to nobody every 30 min. During this time the repeater is rendered useless and could hinder real emergency communications.

 

In my opinion this is not what GMRS is intended for, if you have a need to monitor a WX radio buy a weather radio and leave GMRS out of it. Last thing we need on our very limited amount of spectrum is GMRS repeaters broadcasting something that is already broadcast to most of our population.

 

Yeah my bad Corey I meant Jones WQYM541 lol. I looked at the wrong username in my messages, DOH!

 

My goal with the SAME alert was that I wouldn't have to carry 2 radios when I'm out and about, though I agree announcing the current conditions is very annoying. The system I had mentioned and looked at would only take maybe 10-25 seconds to transmit, and only transmits it once so it wouldn't hog the repeater. Its simply just an alert of "Hey somethings coming, get ready."

[WRAK968]

Note the original post was about retransmitting NOAA weather broadcasts. Unless there was a means to determine which broadcasts fell into the "serious life and property threatening" category, blanket repeats of such broadcasts would not be legal.

 

If you limit the retransmissions to only EAS (Emergency Alert System) and then only retransmitted messages that pertained to the coverage area of the repeater, you might have a case.

 

Honestly however, there are already plenty of systems for relaying and receiving EAS messages and I am not sure what the benefit would be for adding a GMRS relay channel. Yes, it might be useful for those who monitor a given GMRS frequency (simplex or repeater) 24 hours a day.  If I lived in an area that is likely to have messages meeting the criteria of immediacy, I would probably sign up for a public alert service like NIXLE.

Taco clearly said "VOX part of a GMRS radio to broadcast weather warnings" Now I'm guessing it would only transmit if a warning goes out and not just blanket transmit 24 hours. Taco also clarified this by posting a second message, "The way I read that is that weather warnings would be emergency traffic to protect life and property."

 

As for a reason to use GMRS, Taco could be like me and go hiking. My radio works where my phone doesn't, meaning the NIXLE system, as great as it is, doesn't work, nor the weather apps I have on my phone. The only way to counter this is to use a non part 95 radio to get duel band access, or to carry an extra radio devoted specifically to weather. For this reason, I asked about legality almost a year ago because I was going to set up a small system in my vehicle for use during hiking, fishing, and camping.

[berkinet]

Taco clearly said "VOX part of a GMRS radio to broadcast weather warnings" Now I'm guessing it would only transmit if a warning goes out and not just blanket transmit 24 hours. Taco also clarified this by posting a second message, "The way I read that is that weather warnings would be emergency traffic to protect life and property."

Well, that is not at all what I understood. I think he wanted to set his NOAA radio in front of a GMRS radio so that whenever the weather radio was on, it would operate the GMRS radio by VOX. He rationalized that any weather announcement was of “life or death” significance. That is not true. Also, note the NOAA service broadcasts weather announcements as well as warnings, there is no selectivity. This plan is a clear violation of the no broadcasting provision in Part 95E.

[WRAK968]

Well, that is not at all what I understood. I think he wanted to set his NOAA radio in front of a GMRS radio so that whenever the weather radio was on, it would operate the GMRS radio by VOX. He rationalized that any weather announcement was of “life or death” significance. That is not true. Also, note the NOAA service broadcasts weather announcements as well as warnings, there is no selectivity. This plan is a clear violation of the no broadcasting provision in Part 95E.

Not sure what weather radio you have used, or if your just using the wx function of a talkabout radio or perhaps a scanner.

 

The weather radio I have lets me select which alerts I want to hear. For instance, the radio will ignore the weekly test, wind warnings, thunderstorm watches, cold weather advisory's, exc. It only opens for thunderstorm warnings, tornado watch/warnings, and flash flood warnings. I also selected how much audio I want to hear so basically it only gives me the warning type and location, about 15-20 seconds and thats it. If I were to use the same setup Taco is talking about, a user on GMRS would hear a beep followed by "The NWS in Mount Holly NJ has issued a thunderstorm warning for Ocean county in southern NJ until XX:XX." In fact the radio is so specific, it will only decode alerts for a particular area using SAME codes. so if a tornado broke out in northern ocean county, my radio wouldn't alert me to it. The short traffic wouldn't be broadcasting, would contain information considered a threat to life and property, and wouldn't allow things like "Red flag watch" or "Hi rip current warning" to be transmitted.

[taco6513]

Absolutely no point in broadcasting the weather. I am interested in: Thunderstorm watches and warnings. Tornado watches and warnings. That's it! The weather radio will sound off when it gets one of these warnings then close squelch again. Maybe 15 to 20 get issued each year.

How much is the  S.A.M.E. device  you are talking about? How does that work? WRAK968

Thanks

WRCW870  

[taco6513]

Not sure what weather radio you have used, or if your just using the wx function of a talkabout radio or perhaps a scanner.

 

The weather radio I have lets me select which alerts I want to hear. For instance, the radio will ignore the weekly test, wind warnings, thunderstorm watches, cold weather advisory's, exc. It only opens for thunderstorm warnings, tornado watch/warnings, and flash flood warnings. I also selected how much audio I want to hear so basically it only gives me the warning type and location, about 15-20 seconds and thats it. If I were to use the same setup Taco is talking about, a user on GMRS would hear a beep followed by "The NWS in Mount Holly NJ has issued a thunderstorm warning for Ocean county in southern NJ until XX:XX." In fact the radio is so specific, it will only decode alerts for a particular area using SAME codes. so if a tornado broke out in northern ocean county, my radio wouldn't alert me to it. The short traffic wouldn't be broadcasting, would contain information considered a threat to life and property, and wouldn't allow things like "Red flag watch" or "Hi rip current warning" to be transmitted.

What is the Model of your weather radio? That sounds like that would work.

Thanks

WRCR870

[PastorGary]

One of the most popular - https://www.amazon.com/Midland-WR120B-WR120EZ-Certified-Trilingual/dp/B00176T9OY

[WRAK968]

What is the Model of your weather radio? That sounds like that would work.

Thanks

WRCR870

I actually have a uniden BCD536HP that I use for work and when traveling. I set it for WX alerts when camping, but for you it would be a bit pricey. $300+ for a weather radio is a bit much lol. PastorGary offered a better deal with the Midland WR120B, however it looks like you cannot select how long it will open the speaker for, its locked in at 3 minutes.

 

Your best bet would be to look around at various weather radios and read the manuals to see what their options are. Also check some of the older series uniden scanners, again check to see if they have SAME and EVENT code input. Radioshack scanners with SAME typically have these features. Event codes are three letters long and are specific for warning events. The event codes you need are:

 

SVA/SVR (Severe Thunderstorm Watch/Warning)

TOA/TOR (Tornado watch/warning)

 

An event code of "***" basicly plays wildcard and will open on all SAME alerts.

 

You can see more codes here:

https://www.nws.noaa.gov/nwr/info/eventcodes.html

 

As for linking into your radio, I suggest using a controller and not VOX as VOX can sometimes goof up and TX for the hell of it. I know the surecom duplex controller would work in this case, and the nice part is you can set a TOT to 30 seconds or however long you want the alert to transmit. Thus, you don't have a weather alert hijacking the channel for long periods of time.

[Jones]

Yeah my bad Corey I meant Jones WQYM541 lol. I looked at the wrong username in my messages,

I asked an FCC enforcement officer about this matter in person at the Kansas Association of Broadcasters convention last October.  He said he would ask his people, and get back to me.  I called his number back and left a voice-mail in December.  I still have heard absolutely nothing.

 

I also sent a detailed email to a communications law firm in Washington DC about this, and got nothing from them either.

 

As of this time, I am still using a Sage Alerting Systems EAS box on my GMRS repeater.  I have it set to ignore all tests, watches, announcements, statements, and all the other useless stuff that gets sent over NOAA radio, but it does auto-forward severe weather warnings for my coverage area, state-wide AMBER alerts, and National Emergency Activation Notification messages. (...and there have never been any of those)

 

EAS timeout is set to 2 minutes, but many of the alerts are shorter than that, and the thing will re-set when the end-of-message tones go through.  It is enough to get my attention, give me the basic facts, then I can go find another radio to tune in, or get online if I need more information.

[RickW]

Because the NOAA weather transmissions are so ubiquitous, you would likely be able to copy at least one station from most locations with a modest receiver. Far better than with a potential GMRS repeater since there seem to be quite few weather stations, even here in rural SW WI. I can pick up six of the 7 NOAA frequencies, some of them quite a few miles away, but that is with a base antenna.

 

If you have a Part 90 transceiver, that you use for Part 95, perhaps you could program in one or more of the NOAA frequencies? Or would that be too far out of band since NOAA weather is VHF? It likely would not have the alert feature that some of the newer 2 way radios have built-in.

 

For example, our Midland MXT 115's have a built-in NOAA weather alert as well as ability to tune to any of the frequencies, however, not true of our MXT400's.

 

Although not GMRS,even our Uniden Bearcat 980SSB has this alert built-in as well. 

[WRAK968]

Because the NOAA weather transmissions are so ubiquitous, you would likely be able to copy at least one station from most locations with a modest receiver. Far better than with a potential GMRS repeater since there seem to be quite few weather stations, even here in rural SW WI. I can pick up six of the 7 NOAA frequencies, some of them quite a few miles away, but that is with a base antenna.

 

If you have a Part 90 transceiver, that you use for Part 95, perhaps you could program in one or more of the NOAA frequencies? Or would that be too far out of band since NOAA weather is VHF? It likely would not have the alert feature that some of the newer 2 way radios have built-in.

 

For example, our Midland MXT 115's have a built-in NOAA weather alert as well as ability to tune to any of the frequencies, however, not true of our MXT400's.

 

Although not GMRS,even our Uniden Bearcat 980SSB has this alert built-in as well. 

The goal would be that the end user would not need to travel with a dedicated weather radio. Nobody knows when an alert will take place and in order to hear an alert, you must have the radio tuned to a NOAA station. By adding the alert re-transmit, you essentially have one weather radio on standby (vs one per person) and when it triggers anyone using the channel/repeater will hear the alert right away on their GMRS radio which they are already carrying to talk with other users/family members. This way everyone is up to speed during hazardous weather regardless where they are.

[BoxCar]

The FCC has actually weighed in on the subject of rebroadcasting NOAA weather in dealing with the Traveler Information Station proceedings. Several owners of TIS or Highway Advisory Radio stations. The Enforcement Division cited these station operators for transmitting information (routine weather) that was not within the allowed information classes. Routine weather does not fall within the boundary of information related to the protection of life or property. They did not state if alerts which were broadcast with the SAME tones were permissible. One has to remember that weather warnings expire 4 hours after being issued or cancelled with another SAME burst. 

[kc3mn]

I use the CAT/ WX-250 weather radio

and the Scom 7330 controller

can make it say or do just what you want and nothing More

 

have to remember that most WX receivers are not made for High RF  environments

 

[quarterwave]

I can't remember the brand and model, but I bought one to do this (Severe alerts only for 2 counties) and I made sure it had both a relay output and EOM reset. 

 

Mine is hooked to a control station (old M100 Motorola mobile on a power supply) via COR from the relay out. The TOT is set to 45 seconds...Not that my MTR2000 repeater would care...but it is nice to have on there when we are farming in the Spring and Fall. 

 

There are no competing repeaters on the same channel in my area, so it's never been a problem.