What is it? Hope that got your attention!

[MacJack]

So in WNC on channel 15 I hear morse code every fifteen minutes...  I have read some posts that Ham repeaters need to transmit callsign but not GMRS repeaters.  I would like to be educated to encourage this operator to check out the rules.  I should add that I do not hear anything on the repeater channel 15 with no PL code.  

 

What tools can I use to find out what this is.  Now why I like myGMRS is because I see friendly and very talented and knowledgable Hams willing to take the time to offer us GMRS family guys your wisdom.  Thanks.

 

Jack

[mbrun]

If a GMRS repeater is open to the public and/or used by other the individual and family that owns it, then the repeater is required to identify per the FCC rules.

 

Section 95.1751 provides the rules for identification. In that section in clearly lays out that all transmissions must be identified.

95.1751 c provides the only exclusion for a repeater. It reads:

 

“© Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if: (1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates; and, (2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section.“

 

Based on that wording (and take note of the word ‘only’ and the joining word ‘and’), if anyone other the licensee (or licensee’s family) uses the repeater, then the repeater would need to identify according to the same 15 minute interval required of individual users as stated in 95.1751 (a).

 

In summary, if I had a repeater, used it to talk only to my immediately family, and family members always identified, then our repeater would not need to self identify. The moment we use the repeater to talk with non-family members the repeater must self identify.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Michael

WRHS965

KE8PLM

[WRAK968]

"I have read some posts that Ham repeaters need to transmit callsign but not GMRS repeaters.  I would like to be educated to encourage this operator to check out the rules. "

I would like to know which rules the repeater is breaking that the operator of the repeater needs to "check them." GMRS stations are required to ID every 15 minutes. 

 

~~( a ) The GMRS station call sign must be transmitted:

~~~~(1) Following a single transmission or a series of transmissions; and,

~~~~(2) After 15 minutes and at least once every 15 minutes thereafter during a series of transmissions lasting more than 15 minutes.

 

Some do it a little more often, for instance my repeater is set to ID after 10 minutes which is my personal preference. CW is a form of ID,

 

~~( b ) The call sign must be transmitted using voice in the English language or international Morse code telegraphy using an audible tone.

 

As MBrun said, this is only optional if the stations users have properly ID'd themselves. (Not sure why the first stipulation was in place as they would still be required to identify themselves even if they are owners of the system)

 

Now, if you are trying to figure out how to "read" the CW call, there are various CW decoders including FLdigi which will listen to the "Di" and "Da" and spit the letters out on screen, however I wouldn't send them a lecture on rules and regs until you yourself have a firm understanding of them.

[gortex2]

Most of my repeaters ID at 30 minutes. Regardless if it is or is not in the rules that's how i do my Public Safety stuff so that's how i did mine. 

[WRAK968]

Most of my repeaters ID at 30 minutes. Regardless if it is or is not in the rules that's how i do my Public Safety stuff so that's how i did mine. 

Public safety radio operations and GMRS are vastly different. For instance on public safety radio, the users are not required to ID themselves with a call sign where GMRS each user is required to send their call. If for some reason the FCC chose to start enforcement it could be an issue, however, since users are required to ID themselves anyways, 30 minute ID times for the repeater are acceptable.

[MacJack]

Thanks Michael, I knew could count on you to find the references and summary of what it means.  So those who allow the non family public use of their repeater who do not do the 15 minute Call Sign, breaking the law and what is the penalty.  In fact, how many know this fact and just do not do it?

Jack

If a GMRS repeater is open to the public and/or used by other the individual and family that owns it, then the repeater is required to identify per the FCC rules.

Section 95.1751 provides the rules for identification. In that section in clearly lays out that all transmissions must be identified.
95.1751 c provides the only exclusion for a repeater. It reads:

“© Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if: (1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates; and, (2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section.“

Based on that wording (and take note of the word ‘only’ and the joining word ‘and’), if anyone other the licensee (or licensee’s family) uses the repeater, then the repeater would need to identify according to the same 15 minute interval required of individual users as stated in 95.1751 (a).

In summary, if I had a repeater, used it to talk only to my immediately family, and family members always identified, then our repeater would not need to self identify. The moment we use the repeater to talk with non-family members the repeater must self identify.

Hope that helps.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[MacJack]

You bring up several good points and I can see your and Michael points of view.  Because I see this as an issue of interpretation until clarified by FCC.  I retired from reading the rules to someone else.  Thanks for the info on CW decoders, I will look into that.

Jack

I would like to know which rules the repeater is breaking that the operator of the repeater needs to "check them." GMRS stations are required to ID every 15 minutes. 

 

~~( a ) The GMRS station call sign must be transmitted:

~~~~(1) Following a single transmission or a series of transmissions; and,

~~~~(2) After 15 minutes and at least once every 15 minutes thereafter during a series of transmissions lasting more than 15 minutes.

 

Some do it a little more often, for instance my repeater is set to ID after 10 minutes which is my personal preference. CW is a form of ID,
 

~~( b ) The call sign must be transmitted using voice in the English language or international Morse code telegraphy using an audible tone.

As MBrun said, this is only optional if the stations users have properly ID'd themselves. (Not sure why the first stipulation was in place as they would still be required to identify themselves even if they are owners of the system)

 

Now, if you are trying to figure out how to "read" the CW call, there are various CW decoders including FLdigi which will listen to the "Di" and "Da" and spit the letters out on screen, however I wouldn't send them a lecture on rules and regs until you yourself have a firm understanding of them.

 

Edit: Does anyone know who can take an audio file with the CW code and decode signal.  Thanks.

[MacJack]

Good point "Back in the days" County dispatch keep the radio log of each operator on duty and car ID in service.  At change of shifts which was how the saw the rules 50 years ago. 

Jack

Public safety radio operations and GMRS are vastly different. For instance on public safety radio, the users are not required to ID themselves with a call sign where GMRS each user is required to send their call. If for some reason the FCC chose to start enforcement it could be an issue, however, since users are required to ID themselves anyways, 30 minute ID times for the repeater are acceptable.

[gortex2]

Public safety radio operations and GMRS are vastly different. For instance on public safety radio, the users are not required to ID themselves with a call sign where GMRS each user is required to send their call. If for some reason the FCC chose to start enforcement it could be an issue, however, since users are required to ID themselves anyways, 30 minute ID times for the repeater are acceptable.

 

I understand that. My comment was based on my installing of public safety systems its a habit to use the same stuff on my GMRS. Plus most of my repeaters are public safety part 90 re-use.... This was for my repeater only. I still encourage users to ID as stated in the rules.

[berkinet]

...So those who allow the non family public use of their repeater who do not do the 15 minute Call Sign, breaking the law and what is the penalty.  In fact, how many know this fact and just do not do it?

As a practical matter, most repeaters identify whether they need to or not.  If someone is not following the rules, I'd say that is their problem and I'll let them worry about the potential penalty.  But, since you were concerned...

Under 47 U.S.C. § 502, any person who willfully and knowingly violates a regulation of the Federal Communications Commission is subject to a maximum fine of $500 for each day on which a violation occurs.

 

BTW, note that many repeater controllers are programmed to only ID when the repeater is actually in use. There is no requirement to ID when the repeater is otherwise idle. So, you may hear nothing for hours or days at a time.

[MacJack]

I think you nailed it berkinet for me.. Since I only hear him on Ch 15 every 15 minutes he may want to set his controller as you said when "actually in use".  As for the penalty and his conscious is good to know.  I'm not loosing any sleep, was just curious as I'm studying my need for a repeaters by learning the rules beforehand.

Again thanks you guys for your knowledge you are willing to share.

Jack 

As a practical matter, most repeaters identify whether they need to or not.  If someone is not following the rules, I'd say that is their problem and I'll let them worry about the potential penalty.  But, since you were concerned...

Under 47 U.S.C. § 502, any person who willfully and knowingly violates a regulation of the Federal Communications Commission is subject to a maximum fine of $500 for each day on which a violation occurs.

 

BTW, note that many repeater controllers are programmed to only ID when the repeater is actually in use. There is no requirement to ID when the repeater is otherwise idle. So, you may hear nothing for hours or days at a time.

[Radioguy7268]

Some operators would choose to ID every 15 minutes with no breaks as a way to advertise their "presence" on a channel. If you were trying to locate a repeater to use in your area, picking the ID off of the one you hear the best could serve as a way to put you in touch with the owner of the machine. Not everyone posts their info on MyGMRS.

 

Also, if you're going to invest the time and money to put up a genuine high elevation repeater with good coverage area, having a constant ID would serve as a way to Mark your Territory, letting others know that you're already on that channel.

 

Also, having a unit throwing out an ID constantly can serve a "heartbeat function", letting the owner know that there's power to the site and the transmitter is still able to transmit.

 

Those are just 3 of the reasons I can think of, there's probably more.

[mbrun]

They vast majority of repeaters in Cincinnati (GMRS and Amateur radio alike) ID only when in use, in accordance with the FCC prescribed interval. There a couple that ID on the top and button of the hour (regardless of use) and also announce the time.

 

 

Michael

WRHS965

KE8PLM

[MacJack]

Radioguy7268, you nailed.  I downloaded a couple iPhone apps and got enough of the CW to find out it was the local repeater.  What a surprise as I ask the owner if he was sending morse code out months back but being a newbie did not ask the correct way since he is a Ham...  So proud of my repeater owner is following the rules...  In fact, I like what you wrote below for three reasons why... I would have never thought of those reasons.  I would think reason 2 and 3 first as 1 would be last in our area.  

 

Thank you all for this lesson.  This has been a great learning and understanding, hope others are picking up these golden nuggets.  

Jack 

Some operators would choose to ID every 15 minutes with no breaks as a way to advertise their "presence" on a channel. If you were trying to locate a repeater to use in your area, picking the ID off of the one you hear the best could serve as a way to put you in touch with the owner of the machine. Not everyone posts their info on MyGMRS.

 

Also, if you're going to invest the time and money to put up a genuine high elevation repeater with good coverage area, having a constant ID would serve as a way to Mark your Territory, letting others know that you're already on that channel.

 

Also, having a unit throwing out an ID constantly can serve a "heartbeat function", letting the owner know that there's power to the site and the transmitter is still able to transmit.

 

Those are just 3 of the reasons I can think of, there's probably more.