WHY??? Why is programming custom channels so limited??

[dirkvan]

So I am curious as to why there are such limitations to programming GMRS radios.  In the vast preponderance of brands and models, programming custom channels is limited to a SMALL defined block of repeater channels.  Most allow you to change the name and CTCSS/DCS on a simplex channel but not to create a custom simplex channel.  For instance, my club likes to use GMRS simplex channel 4 (462.63750) with CTCSS 85.3.  I'd love to create a channel on my radio that is named "CLUB" and has those settings.  For almost all the radios I've looked at, i'd need to go into the programming and rename CH 4 "CLUB" and add my CTCSS codes, thereby losing the generic CH 4.  I'd have to keep entering and deleting the CTCSS codes anytime I wanted to use CH4 with non club members.  From a practical perspective, I don't really care since I pretty much only use the radio for club functions and occasional other stuff, so no big deal.  I'm just really curious why the programmable "slots" on GMRS radios are so limited.  The same is largely true for repeater pairs.  Many radios advertise they have 500 channels.  When you go into the programming, you quickly find that only a very few allow transmit, the rest are receive only.  WHY???  What is the limiting factor? Please, don't go on a rant about FCC type certs, i just want to understand the mechanics of it.  I freely admit that I am not an engineer or technical guru

[MichaelLAX]

1 hour ago, dirkvan said:

Seriously dude...  I hope this helps you sleep better.

Thank you for granting me permission to ask additional questions. I have to say I didn't know it was up to you to bestow this entitlement.

Some people like to have the last word.  I'm happy to let you do that, but if you keep injecting new information that is either:

1) incorrect; or

2) insulting or otherwise used to give a negative impression...

Then you are going to get a response from me.  

You've had a chip on your shoulder about my responses right from the start, but so be it; that's why Heinz makes 57 varieties!

You opening post appeared to me to be based on either a bad choice of radios or incorrect assumptions or both.

When I asked which radios you were referring to, your response was "No."

When you responded to another than you use the GM-30, I replied "wrong radio" which is factually correct for what you asked in your opening statement.

Your response was: "Chill out dude! You asked me to list all the radios I've looked at, which I correctly foresaw would lead to a flame about brands."  Wrong twice: no one here is flaming about brands!

Of course there are no technical GMRS limitations for what you desire and you even acknowledge that in your opening statement: "For almost all the radios I've looked at, i'd need to go into the programming and rename CH 4 "CLUB" and add my CTCSS codes, thereby losing the generic CH 4."

It is just some manufactures sell ketchup and others sell mustard!

Do you really have to come on a GMRS forum to confirm that advertising and marketing material over-sells their capabilities (500 channels)? If you do, then have the patience to read differing responses to your concern.

If you are insulted by these facts and feel like you have to lash out at me with name-calling, slurs, misconceptions and/or insults, then that reflects on you, not me.

But given how you said in your Opening Post: "Please, don't go on a rant about FCC type certs, i just want to understand the mechanics of it" it is clear to me that you were already in a defensive posture about how some of us were going to respond to you. 

So to put it in your phraseology:

Quote

Please grant me permission to respond differently than others will on this forum. I acknowledge that it is up to you to bestow this entitlement.

And PS: If you need more information about 500 channels and Tones, etc., watch @OffRoaderX's video:

Privacy Tones, Sub-Channels & CTCSS Codes

 

[Lscott]

7 hours ago, dirkvan said:

So I am curious as to why there are such limitations to programming GMRS radios.  .....i just want to understand the mechanics of it.  I freely admit that I am not an engineer or technical guru

Well it simply comes down to the money. Somebody has to pay the software guy to rework functioning firmware for their Ham version of the radio, or totally new firmware, to meet FCC GMRS regulations. It's not going to be done for free. If the manufacture doesn't see a huge market for a product with those features it's poor business sense to spend money on something that won't increase sales in a major way.

Once you sit through a few meetings between sales and engineering groups, I have for the kind of business our company is in, the question pops up "how much is the customer willing to pay for feature "x"?". The answer in some cases is little to done. Guess what? Management kills the idea and it doesn't make it to production.  That's they way the business world works.

[mbrun]

I have to agree, and I believe whole heartedly, that it is indeed a money thing. While the hardware platform on which the radios are based technically is built to serve the needs in many markets, in many countries, the cost of custom firmware, government regulations and certifications for the ultimate market can be costly. If the market is small, or the potential customer’s expenditure willingness is minimal, corners get cut, more compromises occur.

I don’t consider Wouxun radios cheap, I don’t consider them to be expensive, and I don’t necessarily consider some of them polished either. What I can presume however is that products that sell for less are less polished, have limited capability, and likely will not perform as well higher priced units. Similarly, I would expect if I paid more I would get more. Call me old fashioned.

The programming weakness of the BF, Midlands and other brands is well known and documented on this forum. Many don’t come here until they have made a purchase however. They purchase low or on sizzle and end up being disappointed and wonder why. I have to admit I have chuckled quite a few times when I read some messages.

In 2020 when I made the decision to purchase my first repeater capable GMRS HT, I made a personal decision to purchase a KG-805G. I was pleased then, and still am pleased with that purchase. But I also concluded quickly that I wanted more. WIth that I reconciled that I would likely need to pay more. I knew that if I bought down, I am not supporting future efforts to get more of what I want. While some on this forum have taughted the 935G as providing a really good user experience (and I agree that it does) I still desire a radio with an even better user experience. I know to achieve this that there is cost involved. But if there are not sufficient numbers of consumers willing to pay to get it, we live with what the masses will buy.

Bottom line. There is no technical limitation that prevents a manufacturer from making, or any consumer from owning, a radio that at can accommodate a large quantity of fully usable configurable memory channels in a FCC Part 95 compliant radio. They and we both just need to be willing to pay for it. Fortunately, at least manufacturer, Wouxun, has made it possible throughout there whole GMRS lineup to fully configure every memory channel available in the model. This ranges from a minimum of 128 on the KG-805G, to 256 on the 905 to 999 on the KG-935G, KG-1000G and KG-UV9G models. Since they have set themselves aside in this regard, I would expect they would do the same on any future models that may come to market as well.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[wayoverthere]

13 hours ago, mbrun said:

I have to agree, and I believe whole heartedly, that it is indeed a money thing. While the hardware platform on which the radios are based technically is built to serve the needs in many markets, in many countries, the cost of custom firmware, government regulations and certifications for the ultimate market can be costly. If the market is small, or the potential customer’s expenditure willingness is minimal, corners get cut, more compromises occur.

The programming weakness of the BF, Midlands and other brands is well known and documented on this forum. Many don’t come here until they have made a purchase however. They purchase low or on sizzle and end up being disappointed and wonder why. I have to admit I have chuckled quite a few times when I read some messages.

The 805g (in 2/2020) was my first repeater capable gmrs handheld as well, falling between the mxt115 (and it's limitations, in 1/2020) and the btech 50x1 (with more capability and other limitations in 3/2020).

At that time, I believe the options for mobiles were basically Midland, BTech, or diving into lmr gear; lmr gear was a plunge I wasn't quite ready for, and btech seemed the better option of the two. However, as the field grows, it shows where they kind of cut corners on the programming/firmware side to get a unit on the market when their only off the shelf competition was midland.

I do wonder, given the growth of gmrs and the introduction of uv5r based part 95 radios, if they'll find it worth the investment to at least build some more flexibility into the 50x1; the display and menus are serviceable, better than the 50x2, but that programming  limitation. Heck, if they could do a certified version of the 50x3, they might have a genuine contender to wouxun/bwtr's kg1000, even if they bumped up the price to around the same.

 

[KAF6045]

On 1/31/2022 at 12:16 PM, dirkvan said:

Radioddity GM-30 right now, contemplating a DB-20G in near future. 

Coming in late to this party, but I have a DB20-G (I've seen the hyphen in both locations, but consider the -G as an add-on for "GMRS") on order. I'm hoping the one small comment I'd found indicating a power-on unlock feature holds true (or that someone has older firmware that did support the unlock, and an installer that allows downgrading the rig). It's going to replace the MXT115 I installed a month ago (no extra channel slots, and locked in NFM). The stock configuration only allows for nine "additional" channel configurations, and they are ONLY repeater configs (provide Rx frequency, and the programming software sets the Tx). Nine slots won't even hold the sparse list of Michigan repeaters.

I did, as an experiment, select the "unlocked" variant in the software menu -- that warns that all memories will be erased (big deal)... Once I'd switched, I was able to reprogram all the stock "channels" (and on repeaters, "REVERSE" and "TALK AROUND" are now options), along with all the Michigan repeaters, and a block of 16 for the RT97 configuration -- not that I'd expect to use a 5/10/20W mobile to work through a 5W repeater that is likely in the same vehicle; just go direct.

Edited September 5, 2022 by KAF6045
added "on order"

[MichaelLAX]

Other than clumsy CPS software, and the fact that it is only 20 watts, I know of no other criticisms of the wonderfully useful and low priced Radioddity DB-20-G (haha) a/k/a Anytone AT-779UV.

[back4more70]

I seem to have more than enough programmable channels on my cheap radios, but perhaps I need more friends/contacts 

[Blaise]

On 9/5/2022 at 10:52 AM, KAF6045 said:

I'm hoping the one small comment I'd found indicating a power-on unlock feature holds true

 

It worked a treat on mine.  So much more convenient and usable.  And I can listen to marine band as I drive up and down the Hudson Valley!

[KAF6045]

3 hours ago, Blaise said:

It worked a treat on mine.  So much more convenient and usable.  And I can listen to marine band as I drive up and down the Hudson Valley!

Mine arrived today -- but I may have to send it in... Sent a report to Radioddity, hope to hear from them in the next day or two -- when I'd rather have swapped it into the Jeep where the NFM only MXT115 is located. (Not thrilled that there is no inline fuse -- since I intend to cut off the power plug and wire into the battery via the heavy-duty wiring of the ICOM ID-5100)

The unlock worked, so I was able to add the additional 26 or some such repeaters I know of (16 of those are the RT97 config I created).

However, I'm only getting 10W into a dummy load on High for repeaters (12W simplex), about 5.5W on Medium, and about 2.5W on Low... Those numbers barely beat out my KG935 hand held!

While I don't expect to see the full rated power, I'd think 17-18W on High should be seen.

[WROQ359]

On 1/31/2022 at 10:06 AM, PartsMan said:

I posted a similar complaint recently and was told that the Wouxen radios allow more custom transmit channels.

More money but could be worth it.

I have the 905G, 16 banks with 16 channels each all can be setup with custom channels.

[MichaelLAX]

15 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

However, I'm only getting 10W into a dummy load on High for repeaters (12W simplex), about 5.5W on Medium, and about 2.5W on Low... Those numbers barely beat out my KG935 hand held!

While I don't expect to see the full rated power, I'd think 17-18W on High should be seen.

Well, if you are accurately measuring its power output, you should get a replacement.

It should be 18 watts UHF and 20 Watts VHF.

[KAF6045]

3 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

Well, if you are accurately measuring its power output, you should get a replacement.

It should be 18 watts UHF and 20 Watts VHF.

I doubt the meter is that far in error -- if it is, it means my 15W MXT115 is putting out close to 20W, since it reads in the 14W range when I last checked

It does show my Kenwood TS-200 2m and 70cm bands are putting out 20% less than rated, which could mean half my low readings are the meter... However, my Diamond SX-200 (which doesn't reach UHF) ALSO shows the 2m at 20% below rated -- I doubt two meters could both be out of spec by the same amount, so I do feel the meters are acceptable for general categorization. Even accepting a 20% meter error, it would mean the unit is still only running ~14W on high.

I did spot the manual states 18W. I could accept a 10% variation (which would mean about 16.2W at the low end), but a 40% variation is obscene. Even accepting a 20% meter error, it would mean the unit is still only running ~14W on high.

I don't intend to use it for non-GMRS usage, I wanted the unlock just to free up more memories for GMRS configurations (If I did, it would be for MURS at low-power -- presuming low power is at ~2W in a proper behaving unit; manual doesn't specify what low and medium power are supposed to be... Of course, that would mean finding a MURS/GMRS dual-band antenna -- I have a Larsen glass-mount GMRS [well, UHF commercial] antenna on order to mount on the Liberty, in place of the mag-mount Midland antenna)

I'm still awaiting a response from the Radioddity support message I filled out last night.