Is PL required on GMRS repeater?

[WRQS959]

I was told that the FCC rules require a PL on all GRMS repeaters, is this true?

[BoxCar]

Tones are NOT required on any channel or device. Ask whoever gave you that tidbit to show where it is required in the rules.

[OffRoaderX]

38 minutes ago, WRQS959 said:

I was told that the FCC rules require a PL on all GRMS repeaters.

Whoever told you that is either an idiot, a liar, or quite possibly, both.

[WRQS959]

I could not find it any of the rules or regs, it is probably a good idea though.  I want to put a GMRS repeater on a 1500 foot mtn. (hill), just East of Yuma, AZ.  It will have a range if about 40-50 miles, so I want it to be right.

Yes I will ask him to show me the rules.

Thanks

[Radioguy7268]

The trouble with a Carrier Squelch repeater is that it will repeat literally everything it hears. There's no real control, and if you're high up, you'll hear the world, including stuff that you really don't want to repeat. If you've got any other co-channel user close by, your repeater will be keyed every time one of their mobiles is transmitting. Not ideal, not even close to useful, and pretty much guaranteed to be a pain to your neighboring system.

I don't see anything in the rules that says you have to run PL, but the FCC does say you're supposed to avoid interference and monitor before transmitting.

[axorlov]

FCC rules do not require tones. The reality does.

[JeepCrawler98]

Tones are not required; but unless you want to completely make a channel useless to any other repeaters on the same pair and potentially cause all kinds of interference you really should have one.  If you're running a machine CSQ it'll pick up ALL traffic and any background noise above your squelch level on the repeater input channel, regardless of if it's intended for your repeater or not.

Edited May 12, 2022 by JeepCrawler98

[WRKC935]

So I ran, by accident, a repeater without a PL for a short time.  The problem with that is when others have a machine on that frequency, even though they are running PL, they will bring up their machine and your machine since having NO PL will allow your repeater to be accessed with ANY PL because it's not monitoring for a specific one.  This of course can generate hate and discontent when your repeater has a wide coverage footprint and it covers that guys footprint.  He can't use his repeater because you are covering him up or at least are generating some amount of frequency noise and interference with his signal. 

So are you LEGALLY required to run a PL?

It depends and not because there is a specific rule about running PL but instead the rules governing harmful interference with other users equipment.  That right there, they're rules for.  You can't interfere with other users on purpose.  Not running a PL on a repeater when you KNOW there is another repeater on the frequency is purposeful, since you know how to minimize the interference. 

 

[MichaelLAX]

3 hours ago, WRKC935 said:

So I ran, by accident, a repeater without a PL for a short time.  The problem with that is when others have a machine on that frequency, even though they are running PL, they will bring up their machine and your machine since having NO PL will allow your repeater to be accessed with ANY PL because it's not monitoring for a specific one.  This of course can generate hate and discontent when your repeater has a wide coverage footprint and it covers that guys footprint.  He can't use his repeater because you are covering him up or at least are generating some amount of frequency noise and interference with his signal. 

Really?!? 

If the coverage footprints of the two repeaters generate that much interference based upon the ability of the signals on the inputs, with or without PLs, to cause interference to the other repeaters, you have a problem that adding a PL will not solve!

Let us not forget that with two repeaters on the same frequency with massive overlapping coverage; once the squelch is opened by the signal with the proper PL, it will "hear" the other transmissions on the same input frequency, subject only to the "capture effect" for FM.

[Lscott]

4 minutes ago, MichaelLAX said:

Really?!? 

If the coverage footprints of the two repeaters generate that much interference based upon the ability of the signals on the inputs, with or without PLs, to cause interference to the other repeaters, you have a problem that adding a PL will not solve!

Let us not forget that with two repeaters on the same frequency with massive overlapping coverage; once the squelch is opened by the signal with the proper PL, it will "hear" the other transmissions on the same input frequency, subject only to the "capture effect" for FM.

Well the local mall’s housekeeping has a repeater on the same exact frequency as the wide area GMRS repeater about 5 to 6 miles away. At least they use different PL tones so when a call goes out to clean up a spill in the food court everyone in a 20+ mile radius doesn’t hear it by keying up the wide area coverage GMRS repeater.

The mall’s housekeeping radios also use a tone on RX so they can’t hear if there is any activity before keying up. I’ve monitored the repeater channel and caught them doubling with traffic on the wide area coverage GMRS repeater a few times. I guess they never look at the RX light or have the BCL, busy channel lockout programmed in, before using the PTT button. I verified that while walking around the mall for exercise with my radio when I’m not at the gym. Fortunately the interference seldom occurs.

The fact the mall’s housekeeping license expired back on 10/2015 to use those GMRS repeater pair frequencies is another issue. I’ve informed the repeater trustees about it but they’re not interested in doing anything. The FCC rules state the repeater owners have to resolve any interference issues. Oh well, it’s not my responsibility, I don’t own it or pay for it’s upkeep either.

[WRKC935]

6 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

Really?!? 

If the coverage footprints of the two repeaters generate that much interference based upon the ability of the signals on the inputs, with or without PLs, to cause interference to the other repeaters, you have a problem that adding a PL will not solve!

Let us not forget that with two repeaters on the same frequency with massive overlapping coverage; once the squelch is opened by the signal with the proper PL, it will "hear" the other transmissions on the same input frequency, subject only to the "capture effect" for FM.

Yeah, really...  And I ended up moving from 625 to 600 because of it.  I suppose I should have added that in there somewhere.  He was there first but was so inactive, I had no idea.  Easy enough to change frequencies.  Bit of programming and a retune of the combiner port.

 

[WRQI583]

6 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

If the coverage footprints of the two repeaters generate that much interference based upon the ability of the signals on the inputs, with or without PLs, to cause interference to the other repeaters, you have a problem that adding a PL will not solve!

Yes you are correct except for areas that have very tall hills/mountains. I have lived in areas with anything from 500 foot hills to well over 2,000 feet. I have done it on accident and I have known others (especially on Ham Repeaters) where we are transmitting on the repeater we are using with a tone, and one without a tone (which you dont tend to find much anymore for obvious reasons) a good enough distance away inadvertently  gets keyed up by us while we are up at a high elevation travelling down a certain road. 

 

On 5/11/2022 at 6:02 PM, WRQS959 said:

I was told that the FCC rules require a PL on all GRMS repeaters, is this true?

So, is it required? No. Using common sense will come into play in this case. If it was me, and this is only me, If I had a repeater, I would probably set a PL tone on it and set it to 141.3 which I believe is a common one I believe for those travelling? Many years ago when repeaters weren't as common as they are today, running one without a tone probably wouldn't be an issue.