WOXUN KG-1000G not transmitting to repeater using CTCSS codes

[Wildzebra]

Evening all - before I start if this has already been answered or there is somewhere I can self-serve an answer, please point me there.  I did search but have come up empty.

I'm trying to connect to this repeater with no success when sending transmissions.

Using the RT systems software I have set the channel up as:

• RX: 462.55000
• TX: 467.55000
• Offset freq: 5.00 Mhz
• Offset direction: Plus
• Operating mode: FM
• Tone mode: T SQL
• CTCSS: 241.8
• RX CTCSS: 241.8
• TX Power: High

Problem: When transmitting from my KG-1000G it is not received on other radios. (RX works fine, see below)

Testing i've done:

1. I programmed my 10w handheld (Retevis RT1), with the same config as above in and when I transmit on the HT it comes through clearly on my KG-1000G
2. I created a simplex channel on both my HT and Woxun using the same 241.8 CTCSS code for TX and RX - it works perfectly in both directions

This unit was installed today and was a swap of the radio only as it's replacing an existing Midland MXT400.  As an FYI, the Midland connected to and communicated regularly on this repeater - and when eyeballing the config files of both radios they look identical to me.

So, i'm stumped. Two other radios TX and RX to the repeater just fine, and while it will RX it apparently does not TX.

Any help greatly appreciated - i've been staring at this thing for far too many hours (hence it's nearly midnight) and i'm no closer to solving this.

Adam

 

[wayoverthere]

37 minutes ago, Wildzebra said:

Testing i've done:

1. I programmed my 10w handheld (Retevis RT1), with the same config as above in and when I transmit on the HT it comes through clearly on my KG-1000G
2. I created a simplex channel on both my HT and Woxun using the same 241.8 CTCSS code for TX and RX - it works perfectly in both directions

So...I'm expect some of the other members with experience with that model may have some better suggestions in the morning.

That said, a couple things come to mind:

• First, can you set the retevis (or another radio) to listen on 467.550 to see if the wouxun is indeed transmitting? That would help narrow if it's a transmit issue or tone issue. 
• Second, the only thing in that config screen that stands out to me is the "ptt-id" field. can that be set to 'off' just to rule out the possibility of that interfering with the tone, since it appears to currently set for "beginning of transmission"? (I think my 805g has "bot", "eot", "both", and "off" as options)

 

 

[BoxCar]

Set the Tone Mode to Tone, not TSQL and remove the receive tone. You won't hear the repeater unless it is using a transmit tone.

[Wildzebra]

5 hours ago, BoxCar said:

Set the Tone Mode to Tone, not TSQL and remove the receive tone. You won't hear the repeater unless it is using a transmit tone.

Thanks for this - from what i'm seeing it's saying it has both an input and output tone? https://mygmrs.com/repeater/4914

(if i'm mis-reading this, sincerely, let me know - i'm pulling my hair out here and might be missing the blatantly obvious)

Adam

[BoxCar]

It's entirely possible the repeater is transmitting a tone but your receiver by not requiring one will hear anything transmitted on the frequency.

[wayoverthere]

1 hour ago, Wildzebra said:

Thanks for this - from what i'm seeing it's saying it has both an input and output tone? https://mygmrs.com/repeater/4914

(if i'm mis-reading this, sincerely, let me know - i'm pulling my hair out here and might be missing the blatantly obvious)

Adam

You're reading it correctly, but it's one of those "doesn't hurt for testing" kind of things...getting the "filter" (tone) out of the way to confirm things are working. Keeping "tone" is what you need to still get into the repeater (assuming it's transmitting as it should)

[wrci350]

11 minutes ago, wayoverthere said:

You're reading it correctly, but it's one of those "doesn't hurt for testing" kind of things...getting the "filter" (tone) out of the way to confirm things are working. Keeping "tone" is what you need to still get into the repeater (assuming it's transmitting as it should)

Pretty sure the OP said the issue was with *transmitting*.  If it was a receive problem, then this would be a useful debugging step.  But the receive tone doesn't come into play with transmitting.

@WildzebraHow far apart are the mobile and the HT when you are testing?  If they are only a few feet apart and you are transmitting on high power, it's quite possible that you are desensing the receiver in the HT ... that 50 watts going out on 467.x makes the HT deaf on the corresponding 462.x frequency.  Have you tried moving the HT further away?

 

Many (but not all) repeaters also have a courtesy tone or a squelch tail that gets transmitted after a radio unkeys.  Do you hear that?

[Wildzebra]

10 hours ago, wayoverthere said:

• First, can you set the retevis (or another radio) to listen on 467.550 to see if the wouxun is indeed transmitting? That would help narrow if it's a transmit issue or tone issue. 

First, thanks for all the replies here - greatly appreciated

Tests i've run

• Reversed the TX[1] and RX[2] (using the tone on both) on the HT and was able to get comms going in both directions
• I also did the same test but with the tones off - works fine.

So if my (somewhat hazy) logic is correct, we're now talking about the repeater potentially being an issue, correct?

I've got some other info but i'll start at the start and see next things I can investigate

Adam

 

• [1] Set RX on the HT to 467
• [2] Set TX on the HT to 462

 

[Wildzebra]

1 minute ago, wrci350 said:

Pretty sure the OP said the issue was with *transmitting*.  If it was a receive problem, then this would be a useful debugging step.  But the receive tone doesn't come into play with transmitting.

@WildzebraHow far apart are the mobile and the HT when you are testing?  If they are only a few feet apart and you are transmitting on high power, it's quite possible that you are desensing the receiver in the HT ... that 50 watts going out on 467.x makes the HT deaf on the corresponding 462.x frequency.  Have you tried moving the HT further away?

I am certainly a few feet away - and now that you say it, it makes perfect sense!

Time to get in the truck and have the wife at home with the HT

[wrci350]

1 minute ago, Wildzebra said:

• Reversed the TX[1] and RX[2] (using the tone on both) on the HT and was able to get comms going in both directions

Sounds very much like it might be desense.  Your HT can hear the 467.x transmission just fine ... but that's ALL it can hear.

[Wildzebra]

44 minutes ago, wrci350 said:

Many (but not all) repeaters also have a courtesy tone or a squelch tail that gets transmitted after a radio unkeys.  Do you hear that?

I do

[wrci350]

2 hours ago, Wildzebra said:

I do

I would definitely do the test you suggest ... drive a bit away (1/4 mile should be plenty!) and try it again.  If you are hearing the repeater when you unkey then you are hitting it.

[Screech]

I see the set the HT to listen on the repeater input freq and tone, if you can, has already been suggested. That was going to be my first idea, see how far the HT can be and how good a signal you get from the base. If there is an antenna or coax issue, perhaps it can listen fine, but the output range is greatly impacted. Do you know what SWR you're getting while transmitting on 467.550? 

If I understood right, you said HTs are reaching in and hearing the output of the repeater fine. That being the case I wouldn't say the repeater is the problem.

[wayoverthere]

8 hours ago, wrci350 said:

Sounds very much like it might be desense.  Your HT can hear the 467.x transmission just fine ... but that's ALL it can hear.

agreed, if the HT Is hearing the mobile transmit, desense is the most likely explanation.

checking the coax and SWR isn't a bad suggestion, but given the same setup was working fine with the midland (if i'm understanding the original post correctly), that's less likely to be the issue.

[WRQW877]

Wildzebra, were you able to resolve the issue of the repeater not hearing you? Curious as I'm having a simular problem with one of mg Wouxun KG-1000G.

[Wildzebra]

On 6/12/2022 at 7:04 AM, WRQW877 said:

Wildzebra, were you able to resolve the issue of the repeater not hearing you? Curious as I'm having a simular problem with one of mg Wouxun KG-1000G.

Sorry for such a long time to reply - and thanks to all that did - I got knocked out pretty hard with the 'rona* and haven't been doing much of anything.  Unfortuantely I have still not made progress with this particular repeater, though I have had sucess setting up simplex and other repeaters on both my HT and KG-1000G without an issue - so i'm thinking it's just the repeater itself

What repeater are you trying to access and what settings do you have. If you have a screenshot, add it here and i'll take a look at it and help where I can.

[Wildzebra]

Ok team, I have solved the issue - and along the way learnt a great deal about how PL/CTCSS/DCS/etc tones work.

That said, before I get started I wanted to shout out to @wayoverthere @BoxCar @wrci350 and @Screech for all the suggestions, followups, ideas and collectively all the information that I needed to get this one solved.

With that said, while I now understand it all, and I got it to work, I also realize that while it's easy in my head, it's hard to write down - i'm going to give it a try though so maybe someone stumbles across this one day and it helps them out.

So through my journey I found out a few things:

1. There are actually two repeaters on the 462.55/467.55 frequency that are relatively close to where I am located - one uses input tone 131.4 no output tone, the second uses input and output tone of 241.8
2.  When i've been testing what has been suggested in this thread, I did have a variable that I hadn't thought to share/I didn't think mattered. I've had the van parked in different spots - and while those spots have been less than 20ft away, that's been the difference between hitting both repeaters clear as day vs barely at all.  I've done this several times, it's quite consistent.

So my solution is

1. Setup two channels, each using their own output tones and both using no input tone.
2. Set one of the two channels as my secondary channel on the KG1000 - I keep the primary channel on for my simplex comms with my friends
3. When I receive a transmission I will return transmit on the frequency i've got set as my secondary - if i'm heard, awesome - If i'm not I quickly switch to the other channel and that inevitably gets through without an issue.

What did I learn?

1. Having no PL/privacy/CTCSS/DCS tone on the receive side means you hear everything on that frequency (I did not know this!)
2. Line of sight/obstacles do and will have an impact to your transmissions
3. I'm somewhat lucky that I have two overlapping repeaters that effectively extend my transmission range

Hopefully this explains it all and clarifies the combination of items that happened.

Adam

tl;dr - radio works fine, user needed to better understand radio theory

Edited June 17, 2022 by Wildzebra
added tl;dr