Fixed station - what does that mean to FCC?

[UncleYoda]

18 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed stations only.

I have a house in town and a cabin sixteen miles away in the mountains. If I buy two radios and locate one at my house and the other at my cabin and the only thing I do is use the two to communicate to each other, I would argue those are “Fixed stations.” In this usage I am responsible for limiting my output power to 15 watts. That doesn’t mean the transmitter must not have the capability to transmit at a higher power!

Radios at your house and cabin are base stations at fixed locations regardless of who you talk to (whether mobile, portable or base).   The regs make it clear to me that fixed station means something different.  Doesn't mean I can convince anyone else though.

[WRUU653]

19 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed stations only.

another way to explain what Sshannon is saying if it makes it easier to grasp, a radio at a gate to a property (a com box if you will) that only communicates (via radio) with a com box in the home on said property. This is a fixed station.  At the end of the day it's the same. It's two radios intended to talk only to each other. 

[SteveShannon]

45 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Radios at your house and cabin are base stations at fixed locations regardless of who you talk to (whether mobile, portable or base).   The regs make it clear to me that fixed station means something different.  Doesn't mean I can convince anyone else though.

Which regs make it clear?  This is the definition straight out of the regs:

Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed stations only.

[UncleYoda]

4 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Which regs make it clear?  This is the definition straight out of the regs:

That's the "definition" (so they call it) that I referred to in the original post.  It does not define what a fixed station is.

I don't feel like going through all the references in the regs, at least right now.  Maybe I'll do it later but the point of asking a question here was not to defend my interpretation of the regs; it was to see if someone knew the answer.   As it stands, I still don't know the answer and it seems no one else does either.

[BoxCar]

The definition is clear IMO. A fixed station is at a location that doesn't move and only communicates to another station that doesn't move either. Think of a microwave site. The dish only communicates to another dish some distance away. Neither end moves.

[KAF6045]

One problem is that, with the limited number of frequencies that must be shared -- actual point-to-point fixed stations are unlikely to be found in GMRS; you'd probably need very high gain parabolic (dish) antennas to create a narrow enough bandwidth to avoid interference (in either direction -- being picked up by passing mobiles, or receiving unwanted traffic from said passing mobiles)

There are only 8 frequencies that could be run at the 15W limit for fixed stations. The 462MHz interstitial frequencies are limited to just 5W (ERP -- so good bye to high gain antenna... You'd have to run at <1W feeding a 6dB gain antenna)

[SteveShannon]

14 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

That's the "definition" (so they call it) that I referred to in the original post.  It does not define what a fixed station is.

I don't feel like going through all the references in the regs, at least right now.  Maybe I'll do it later but the point of asking a question here was not to defend my interpretation of the regs; it was to see if someone knew the answer.   As it stands, I still don't know the answer and it seems no one else does either.

I spent many years dealing with government regulations and one of the most important lessons is to not overregulate yourself. The only regulations that matter are those that are written. For GMRS that means the rules in Part 95, Subpart A, which apply to all personal radio services, and subpart E, which specifically apply to GMRS. 

[SteveShannon]

7 minutes ago, KAF6045 said:

One problem is that, with the limited number of frequencies that must be shared -- actual point-to-point fixed stations are unlikely to be found in GMRS; you'd probably need very high gain parabolic (dish) antennas to create a narrow enough bandwidth to avoid interference (in either direction -- being picked up by passing mobiles, or receiving unwanted traffic from said passing mobiles)

There are only 8 frequencies that could be run at the 15W limit for fixed stations. The 462MHz interstitial frequencies are limited to just 5W (ERP -- so good bye to high gain antenna... You'd have to run at <1W feeding a 6dB gain antenna)

Fixed stations aren’t allowed on the interstitial frequencies anyway. 
Fixed stations are allowed on the eight main 462 MHz frequencies and the eight 467 MHz frequencies. (95.1763)

[SteveShannon]

Maybe this will help. I put together a very short Word document that lists the definition and every mention of "Fixed Station" in Part 95.

Here's the Readers Digest Condensed version:

Subpart A - Definition

Subpart C - Prohibition of RCRS causing interference to Fixed Stations.

Subpart E - Rules regarding Fixed Stations in GMRS

Remote Control of Fixed Stations allowed.

Network Connections allowed for Fixed Stations. 

GMRS Channels - Fixed Stations allowed only on 462 MHz and 467 MHz main channels.

GMRS Power Output - Fixed Stations limited to no more than 15 W output.

 

That's it.  There are no other references to Fixed Stations in Part 95.  References to "Fixed Base Stations", etc. for other services are simply not important.

I have reviewed the general rules before all the Parts.  There’s nothing there that changes anything.

Fixed Station.docx

 

So, based on the rules, I believe a good example of a couple of Fixed Stations would be what I posted before. I could have a permanent radio station running at 15 watts at my cabin and another at my house.  These two radios would have directional antennas pointed at each other and in fact they could use repeater hardware for full duplex communications between my cabin and house, since Fixed Stations are permitted to transmit on the 467 main or 462 main frequencies.  Set up like this they could be a full duplex voice intercom system between my house and cabin.

[UncleYoda]

17 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

another way to explain what Sshannon is saying if it makes it easier to grasp, a radio at a gate to a property (a com box if you will) that only communicates (via radio) with a com box in the home on said property. This is a fixed station.  At the end of the day it's the same. It's two radios intended to talk only to each other. 

Yea, that's one example of what they might be referring to, along the lines I was thinking.  But it needs to be better defined by them.  MURS has driveway alarms and remote radios for talking to a base at the house.  But MURS is limited in wattage.  15W sounds kind of high if that's all they meant for GMRS fixed stations..

[UncleYoda]

16 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

Well yes actually it does.

"It seems" you are unable to understand or refuse to do so, that does not qualify you to comment on what others clearly understand. I managed to learn something thanks to clear explanations by Sshannon and others here. Get a radio, don't get a radio for a base station, use it or don't. I for one won't lose any sleep over it. Good luck. 

 

 

I'm allowed to comment on whatever I please, especially in my own topic.  But I won't need to comment on yours anymore!

[WRUU653]

3 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

I'm allowed to comment on whatever

I never said you weren't allowed, I said you weren't qualified to comment on if other people understood something or not.  

21 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

I still don't know the answer and it seems no one else does either.

I let my frustration get the better of me. For that I am sorry

[WRUU653]

I don't take credit for this, it's directly from Sshannon's down load. "with other fixed stations only". So what it isn't is a base station. 

You are right about Murs being used for alarms, gate and such (I often hear "Alert Zone one" on Murs from a nursing facility near by), and yes 15 watts may seem high for such a thing. I used that as an example. The definition and the rules for GMRS seem clear though. Granted they don't include an example, it just says what you can and can't do. No more no less. For me that's enough.  

[WQAI363]

20 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

Radios at your house and cabin are base stations at fixed locations regardless of who you talk to (whether mobile, portable or base).   The regs make it clear to me that fixed station means something different.  Doesn't mean I can convince anyone else though. 

That is a confusing statement. Why couldn't you talk with a portable station from a fixed stations?

[SteveShannon]

3 minutes ago, Adamdaj said:

That is a confusing statement. Why couldn't you talk with a portable station from a fixed stations?

Technically you can, but the definition limits it only to communicating with other fixed stations. 

[WRUU653]

6 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Technically you can, but the definition limits it only to communicating with other fixed stations.

lets see if I get this right...  once you do start communicating with other non fixed stations, like mobile or HT now you are no longer a fixed station but a Base Station. The Definition changes and with that you are no longer bound by the 15 watts. 

[BoxCar]

7 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

lets see if I get this right...  once you do start communicating with other non fixed stations, like mobile or HT now you are no longer a fixed station but a Base Station. The Definition changes and with that you are no longer bound by the 15 watts. 

BINGO!!!! If a fixed station communicates to anything other than a fixed station the station class just changed.

[SteveShannon]

7 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

lets see if I get this right...  once you do start communicating with other non fixed stations, like mobile or HT now you are no longer a fixed station but a Base Station. The Definition changes and with that you are no longer bound by the 15 watts. 

This is where the FCC rules are mum. 
A station is just a radio. The definitions describe specific uses, but the only license is for the user. There’s no license for the station that limits it to a particular use, so there’s nothing that prevents a radio from being used as a base station and then switching to a fixed station. That’s the confusing part of the regulations.

[WQAI363]

Sounds like I'm the one who needs to buy a dictionary and look up definitions that I thought I knew. I sincerely apologize for doing again, putting in my two cents before doing my research.

73s Have a Good evening

[SteveShannon]

29 minutes ago, Adamdaj said:

Sounds like I'm the one who needs to buy a dictionary and look up definitions that I thought I knew. I sincerely apologize for doing again, putting in my two cents before doing my research.

73s Have a Good evening

No reason to apologize. These regulations could have been written more clearly. That’s the reason I put the definition and all of the regulations in Part 95 that mention Fixed Stations into a single document. I’ve considered making a matrix but I could get messy. 

[jwilkers]

A fixed station is like a base station that communicates with other fixed stations only


A base station is a fixed station that only communicates with mobiles.

Sent from my SM-A136U using Tapatalk

[SteveShannon]

46 minutes ago, jwilkers said:

A fixed station is like a base station that communicates with other fixed stations only


A base station is a fixed station that only communicates with mobiles.

Sent from my SM-A136U using Tapatalk
 

Mostly that’s a convenient way to view it, but there are some fine details that differ.  Base stations may communicate with both base stations or mobile stations. Base stations may not communicate on the any of the 467 frequencies, whereas fixed stations may communicate with each other on the 467 main channels.

[WRUU653]

10 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Base stations may not communicate on the any of the 467 frequencies, whereas fixed stations may communicate with each other on the 467 main channels.

Okay I think I finally understand this. Please correct me if I get anything wrong here.

let’s say I have a fifty watt mobile radio. I install it at my home with antenna and power. If I use it to communicate from it to a Mobile, HT or another Base Station it’s a “Base Station”. I can’t use it to talk to 467 frequency channels 8 -14 (probably because of the .5 wattage restriction which mobile radios don’t do anyway). Finally if I use it to talk to any of the repeater 467 frequency channels 15 - 22 now my radio is not a “base station” but a “control station” so I am allowed to use these if (and that’s only if) I am talking through a repeater. Otherwise I am not allowed to use it on these channels to talk to 15 -22 aka simplex.

 

 

[SteveShannon]

Quote

let’s say I have a fifty watt mobile radio. I install it at my home with antenna and power. If I use it to communicate from it to a Mobile, HT or another Base Station it’s a “Base Station”.

Correct

Quote

 

I can’t use it to talk to 467 frequency channels 8 -14 (probably because of the .5 wattage restriction which mobile radios don’t do anyway).

 

 

 

Well, FCC doesn't number GMRS channels, but they do number FRS channels (Subpart B - FRS - paragraph 95.563). Obviously manufacturers have chosen numbers for the GMRS channels.  Wikipedia identifies them as well, but nothing I have found in FCC regs identify GMRS channels by any numbers other than those used for FRS.

FRS Channels 1-7 are the 462 MHz GMRS Interstitial channels.  Of GMRS stations, only mobile, hand-held portable, and base stations may transmit on these channels and only at 5 watts or less ERP.

FRS channels 8-14 are the 467 MHz GMRS Interstitial channels.  Only hand-held portable GMRS stations may transmit on these seven channels and at no more than 0.5 watts ERP.

FRS channels 15-22 are the 462 MHz GMRS main channels. Of GMRS stations, only mobile, hand-held portable, repeater, base and fixed stations may transmit on these channels. Fixed stations must not exceed 15 watts on any channels where they are allowed to transmit. Mobile, repeater, and base stations are allowed up to 50 watts.

 

Quote

Finally if I use it to talk to any of the repeater 467 frequency channels 15 - 22 now my radio is not a “base station” but a “control station” so I am allowed to use these if (and that’s only if) I am talking through a repeater.

The only numbers that are left are 23-30, so those might be the right numbers to use for the 467 MHz main channels, but I don't want to assume. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control, and fixed stations may transmit on these eight channels, but for different purposes:

Mobile, hand-held portable, and control stations may use these channels to communicate through a repeater or for brief test transmissions.

Fixed stations may only use these channels to directly transmit to other fixed stations.  I confess this fascinates me because it certainly makes it technically feasible to construct a full duplex communications network with one fixed station transmitting on a 462 main channel and the other transmitting on a 467 main channel. 

I apologize if I am making this more complex than it should be.  I have no idea why FCC has defined these different types of stations.

[KAF6045]

8 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

. Finally if I use it to talk to any of the repeater 467 frequency channels 15 - 22 now my radio is not a “base station” but a “control station” so I am allowed to use these if (and that’s only if) I am talking through a repeater. Otherwise I am not allowed to use it on these channels to talk to 15 -22 aka simplex.

I would deem it a MOBILE station being used from a stationary location

Quote

Mobile station. A device intended to be used while in motion or during halts at unspecified points.

All through the regulations, control station is called out separately from mobile, base, on hand-held. Personally, I do not interpret using PTT to access a repeater to be a control function -- to me control station must have the ability to SHUTDOWN a malfunctioning (or one under malicious interference by someone trying to spam the world with religious/political statements, and not allowing other access) station/repeater (otherwise /every user of a repeater is considered a control operator).