GMRS vs MURS for Hikes

[WRVG593]

So I was hiking the other day with a group of friends who all have 2 radios. (Emergency and General Coms). As a general rule we all stick to GMRS as it is more common to use. (Non repeater, just RTR). The other day we were convinced to have a 3rd radio, only about 20 bucks each. A cheap MURS radio. So we used it... and man is it better or what. I didn't think that the lower frequency would change that much. But its traveling farther, though trees better and everything. 

Does anyone else who uses their radios to do outdoor activities find the same conclusion if they've tried it? Or am I over hyping the change? I mean we saw differences and the murs were 2W vs the 5W GMRS.

[MichaelLAX]

I do not have outdoors type experience like your usage.

Another friend here on myGMRS and I have done testing on 2 meters VHF vs. GMRS and we clearly had better results between our 25 mile (as the crow flies) distant homes using VHF.

[gortex2]

VHF will work very well in the woods. That's why SAR teams all across the US have standardized on a VHF frequency. We carry both VHF and UHF public Safety adios on missions. UHF is normally on the TLMR system but once in a while we will use simplex on UHF also. Never can talk as far as VHF but we have both options.

[WRUU653]

4 hours ago, gortex2 said:

VHF will work very well in the woods

I hear people say VHF will do better in the woods than UHF.  Usually in the context of MURS compared to FRS.  So apples to apples as far as wattage is concerned at it's most allowable on the two (MURS/FRS).  My question is how does MURS specifically at 2 watts compare with GMRS at 5 watts in the same use case? Say in the woods. Does the VHF due to it's behavior still perform better than the UHF? Same? Less than?  Does the increase in wattage give GMRS an advantage in this situation. In an apples to oranges wattage comparison. I understand there is more than wattage at play here. Seriously wondered about this as one of the things I like to do is go hiking. I don't have MURS radios but if I did I would give this a test. 

okay I need more coffee as I just read the last post and not OP and his statement. Though I don't know what channel he was on so maybe they were putting out the same wattage and my original question is still valid.  MichaelLax was your test same wattage? Obviously that's an urban environment. Anyway sorry I missed OP's comments about his experience. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by WRUU653
lack of coffee... and paying attention

[Lscott]

This link gets a bit technical but covers other factors that affect range. 

https://vu2nsb.com/radio-propagation/free-space-propagation/

[WRUU653]

1 minute ago, Lscott said:

This link gets a bit technical but covers other factors that affect range. 

Thanks Lscott. I will give that a read. So many variables in this stuff and no shortage of things to learn. 

[SteveShannon]

44 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

I hear people say VHF will do better in the woods than UHF.  Usually in the context of MURS compared to FRS.  So apples to apples as far as wattage is concerned at it's most allowable on the two (MURS/FRS).  My question is how does MURS specifically at 2 watts compare with GMRS at 5 watts in the same use case? Say in the woods. Does the VHF due to it's behavior still perform better than the UHF? Same? Less than?  Does the increase in wattage give GMRS an advantage in this situation. In an apples to oranges wattage comparison. I understand there is more than wattage at play here. Seriously wondered about this as one of the things I like to do is go hiking. I don't have MURS radios but if I did I would give this a test. 

okay I need more coffee as I just read the last post and not OP and his statement. Though I don't know what channel he was on so maybe they were putting out the same wattage and my original question is still valid.  MichaelLax was your test same wattage? Obviously that's an urban environment. Anyway sorry I missed OP's comments about his experience. 

One thing to keep in mind is that any benefit derived from the lower frequencies of MURS apply equally to 2meter VHF.  The only advantage MURS has is license free operation.

Of course I still want a MURS handheld

[gortex2]

Our UHF radios are 4 watts. Our SAR TAC channels are 2 watts (per license) so same as MURS and still performs better. YMMV

[PartsMan]

GMRS all the way for me. Range isn't everything.

The radio selection is infinitely better.

Also A much better chance of some FRS radio being nearby in an emergency.

[irhutch]

I looked into GMRS for hiking on the trail but decided using my 2 meter ham ht was a better idea. I could use simplex with those hiking around me who had a ham radio and there were a lot of repeaters available which would be handy to get a hold of someone who could put in a call for you in an emergency.    There were linked GMRS repeaters with a very large coverage area but they were not open, only there for paid users.  I think this is harmful, you are 'consuming' a resource when you put up a repeater and with GMRS there are only 8 pairs that we have available to put repeaters on, if you are locking down 100 square miles with your repeater, no one else can use it, so don't be 'that guy' and not share the repeater.  

[MichaelLAX]

2 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

MichaelLax was your test same wattage? Obviously that's an urban environment. 

Actually the green area on the map is the Angeles National Forest, which was between us.

We were both testing "opened" Radioddity DB20-Gs on GMRS, MURS, 2 meters and 70 cms on our various power settings, which I believe are 2, 5 and 18 watts (20 for VHF).

BTW: if you put a "@" before our screen name i.e., @MichaelLAX the person get an alert that he has been mentioned.

[Lscott]

6 minutes ago, irhutch said:

 I think this is harmful, you are 'consuming' a resource when you put up a repeater and with GMRS there are only 8 pairs that we have available to put repeaters on, if you are locking down 100 square miles with your repeater, no one else can use it, so don't be 'that guy' and not share the repeater.  

That's why repeaters use PL tones for access. You can have multiple repeaters on the same frequency, but using different tones. Not really an issue unless the repeaters are being accessed at the same time. Per the rules all frequencies are shared so nobody has exclusive use of them. Any interference has to be worked out between the users involved.

[gortex2]

2 hours ago, irhutch said:

I think this is harmful, you are 'consuming' a resource when you put up a repeater and with GMRS there are only 8 pairs that we have available to put repeaters on, if you are locking down 100 square miles with your repeater, no one else can use it, so don't be 'that guy' and not share the repeater.  

I disagree. First point is if I spend all the money to put up a repeater that covers 100 square miles I can limit who is using it. Nothing is free. I removed my repeaters from the site for this reason. They are closed and I spend alot of money to keep them up and running. A repeater that has coverage like that isnt' cheap. 

As @Lscott pointed out people can use different PL/DPL tones on same frequencies alot of times and not bother each other.

Every where is different also. In my dirt I have 2 repeaters on the air. Its almost 100+ miles to the next closest one and it covers all of about 10 miles around it. In another state where I have 3 we are the only repeaters in a 100 sm.  So usage may vary.

 

[axorlov]

From personal experience, in forest 2m (and MURS) is much better than 70cm (and GMRS). It  is so much better that the difference in power between GMRS and MURS (4W vs 2W) does not make for the difference in propagation. In rocky canyons and mountains GMRS will hold the small edge over MURS because of better reflection and other wave effects.

I still use GMRS for camping trips for a simple reason: the 40W mobile radio in a car at a campsite overshoots both GMRS and MURS handhelds by a wide margin, and it also hears better than handheld because of better receiver and more efficient antenna. With operator at campsite (or simplex repeater) you greatly extend the range of your GMRS handhelds, which is not possible with MURS. Simplex repeaters appear to be forbidden, so I only deploy it (configured to not pollute air when not needed) when far away from civilization.

[WRQC527]

As far as GMRS vs MURS for hiking goes, I would definitely go with GMRS because of repeaters. MURS has decent-enough range for simplex, but that's it. Simplex only. From a safety standpoint, access to repeaters is a major advantage, whether it's GMRS or ham. In a real emergency, whether a repeater is paid or not is irrelevant, so load up that radio with every repeater you can. Just don't use them unless it's a real emergency. My ham friends and I use 2 meter HTs with both simplex and repeaters, because we are often blocked from the repeater or each other by terrain. On those same hikes, I reach my wife through a GMRS repeater. While it's good to have multiple services available, I would kick MURS to the curb and keep ham and GMRS with me. And that is indeed what I do.  On another note, we sometimes practice by giving our coordinates as displayed on our phones with no cell service on Google Maps by radio through a repeater to the folks back home so they can pinpoint us on the map. Huge plus when God forbid SAR is looking for us. 

[WRUU653]

For me personally my interest in this subject (other than just the to have the knowledge) is so that if I take a hike away from camp (realizing that all radios have limits) what will work to keep in touch with my wife while I’m out and about. So Ham isn’t going to be an option (she wouldn’t be interested) of course Garmin inreach is but I’m thinking radio here and that leaves GMRS or the no license required MURS. Mostly we hike together but going out in a kayak may be another matter and for that I think GMRS won’t be a problem. I also don’t count on repeaters being out in the woods. @axorlov (how’d I do there @MichaelLAX ) makes a good case for my needs. 

[WRUU653]

Not to reopen a can of worms but this seems like a scenario where a duel band receive (and TX) radio with GMRS and MURS would be handy… I know it’s not allowed.

[WRQC527]

4 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

Not to reopen a can of worms but this seems like a scenario where a duel band receive (and TX) radio with GMRS and MURS would be handy… I know it’s not aloud. 

You mean like my Pofung UV-82's that self-identify as ham, GMRS and MURS?

[WRUU653]

6 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

You mean like my Pofung UV-82's that self-identify as ham, GMRS and MURS?

I was thinking like an unlocked Baofeng GT-3WP. No, no of course I wasn’t. 

[bd348]

3 hours ago, irhutch said:

with GMRS there are only 8 pairs that we have available to put repeaters on

A month or so ago I heard the result of two repeaters on the same frequency.  Northern Indiana while I was passing through.  It didn't work out too well.  FM chaos and conflict as people on each repeater were trying to figure out who the other repeater was.  The people on one repeater were not identifying. A few folks located such that they could hear both could hear each other talking about the other.

[Lscott]

19 minutes ago, bd348 said:

A month or so ago I heard the result of two repeaters on the same frequency.  Northern Indiana while I was passing through.  It didn't work out too well.  FM chaos and conflict as people on each repeater were trying to figure out who the other repeater was.  The people on one repeater were not identifying. A few folks located such that they could hear both could hear each other talking about the other.

Oh well, call signs nobody cares about, at least some have expressed that opinion. It would have been nice if they did ID. Then one would have a chance to contact them and get the problem resolved.

[MichaelLAX]

2 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

I know it’s not aloud. 

But it can be discussed "silently!"  

[WRVG593]

2 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

 self-identify as ham, GMRS and MURS?

Self identify that's funny. I have a cheap UV5R that sits in my car loaded up with GMRS, HAM, And MURS frequencies in case I cannot reach anyone in an emergency. As the fcc says, using a part unacceptable radio is okay in an emergency (wink)

[Lscott]

4 hours ago, WRVG593 said:

Self identify that's funny. I have a cheap UV5R that sits in my car loaded up with GMRS, HAM, And MURS frequencies in case I cannot reach anyone in an emergency. As the fcc says, using a part unacceptable radio is okay in an emergency (wink)

A lot of Hams, many won’t publicly admit it, have their VHF/UHF Ham rigs with the MARS/CAP mod for the same reason.

Oh, on VHF some have the marine channels programmed in too.

 

 

[catbrigade]

19 hours ago, WRVG593 said:

So I was hiking the other day with a group of friends who all have 2 radios. (Emergency and General Coms). As a general rule we all stick to GMRS as it is more common to use. (Non repeater, just RTR). The other day we were convinced to have a 3rd radio, only about 20 bucks each. A cheap MURS radio. So we used it... and man is it better or what. I didn't think that the lower frequency would change that much. But its traveling farther, though trees better and everything. 

Does anyone else who uses their radios to do outdoor activities find the same conclusion if they've tried it? Or am I over hyping the change? I mean we saw differences and the murs were 2W vs the 5W GMRS.

Back in the fall I got some MURS radios for my wife and I to use at a Scout camp because I thought they might work better than GMRS due to the wooded and slightly rolling terrain. The place has lots of trees and the leaves were still on at that point. I didn't get a chance to do an A/B test vs. GMRS radios but did get some anecdotal evidence from another family who had some GMRS radios and said they had found some dead spots. We didn't find any dead spots with our radios.