Morse Code on GMRS Frequencies

[shevo7385]

Hello! I was wondering what the random blurts of Morse code are I pick up. What do people who broadcast this generally use it for? Are there computer decoders you can use or some way of decoding and also sending messages over your system? This is something I've never heard on the radio until recently and I really love it.

[TavisB]

Repeaters IDing. There are apps that will decode it, but the one I've used isn't very good at it (HT). 

[SteveShannon]

11 minutes ago, shevo7385 said:

Hello! I was wondering what the random blurts of Morse code are I pick up. What do people who broadcast this generally use it for? Are there computer decoders you can use or some way of decoding and also sending messages over your system? This is something I've never heard on the radio until recently and I really love it.

Repeaters (well, all stations) are required to be identified using the call sign of the operator/owner. That ID must be transmitted every fifteen minutes during a conversation or at the end of a conversation. The identification can be transmitted as voice or Morse Code (it’s the sound of Morse Code, not truly CW).

It’s usually done for a repeater by an automated process as part of the repeater controller or by a separate device such as the ID-o-matic. 
That’s what you are hearing. 

[JB007Rules]

GMRS repeaters, unlike HAM repeaters are *NOT* required to ID by FCC law FYI.  Many do out of courtesy but some don't.  For example my Crete system is linked to the Midwest network and I don't have it ID'ing.  *Most*, if not all, repeaters have this function standard and will ID based on whatever parameters are set.  For example on my Rugged machine I have it set to *NOT* ID unless it's been keyed.  So for example if it sits for 3 hours with no one keying it, it's not going to be ID'ing every 15 min like some HAM systems I hear (Terribly annoying).  Then say someone uses it or keys it, it will wait 5 seconds for inactivity and then ID.  Say someone keys it in the middle of ID'ing it will stop ID'ing and let the conversation take place.  Once it's dormant for 5 seconds it will attempt to ID again.  Once it fully ID's the 15 min timer starts and the process starts over.  I also have it set to ID in the clear without any PL/DPL tones as having it ID with the tone is the worst cuz then all your users can hear the Morse code which is dumb.  There are some repeaters that ID with the PL and I cannot stand that!  There is *ZERO* reason to do it this way because if you want to hear the ID just open your squelch on your radio.  When you have a receive PL/DPL set on the radio and the repeater is ID'ing in clear, your radio will receive the signal and the RX light will be (in my case) green but no annoying Morse code would be heard unless you open the squelch.

 

Hope this adds some more clarity from the repeater side of, in my opinion, correct repeater CW ID setup.

[SteveShannon]

3 hours ago, JB007Rules said:

GMRS repeaters, unlike HAM repeaters are *NOT* required to ID by FCC law FYI.  Many do out of courtesy but some don't.  For example my Crete system is linked to the Midwest network and I don't have it ID'ing.  *Most*, if not all, repeaters have this function standard and will ID based on whatever parameters are set.  For example on my Rugged machine I have it set to *NOT* ID unless it's been keyed.  So for example if it sits for 3 hours with no one keying it, it's not going to be ID'ing every 15 min like some HAM systems I hear (Terribly annoying).  Then say someone uses it or keys it, it will wait 5 seconds for inactivity and then ID.  Say someone keys it in the middle of ID'ing it will stop ID'ing and let the conversation take place.  Once it's dormant for 5 seconds it will attempt to ID again.  Once it fully ID's the 15 min timer starts and the process starts over.  I also have it set to ID in the clear without any PL/DPL tones as having it ID with the tone is the worst cuz then all your users can hear the Morse code which is dumb.  There are some repeaters that ID with the PL and I cannot stand that!  There is *ZERO* reason to do it this way because if you want to hear the ID just open your squelch on your radio.  When you have a receive PL/DPL set on the radio and the repeater is ID'ing in clear, your radio will receive the signal and the RX light will be (in my case) green but no annoying Morse code would be heard unless you open the squelch.

 

Hope this adds some more clarity from the repeater side of, in my opinion, correct repeater CW ID setup.

The only instance where GMRS repeaters are not required to be separately IDed, are those where the only users are those people who are legally entitled to operate under the call-sign of the repeater operator, and even then they must follow the regulations for individually IDing (which is the ID of the repeater).  If those people talk longer than 15 minutes they are required to ID every 15 minutes.

Will anybody care at the FCC?  Probably not, but the rules are clear.

[wrci350]

3 hours ago, JB007Rules said:

GMRS repeaters, unlike HAM repeaters are *NOT* required to ID by FCC law FYI. 

OK three things:

1) "Ham" is not an acronym (unlike GMRS), so it's ham, not HAM.  

2) Part 95 is a set of FCC *rules*, not laws.  There is a difference.

3) Your statement about repeaters is incorrect.  Why would 95.1751 spell out an exception for when a repeater didn't have to identify, if *no* repeater needs to identify?

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-95.1751

But that's OK, because I can use my new favorite saying.  "There's what the FCC rules say, then there's what people THINK the FCC rules say, and finally there's what people think the FCC rules SHOULD say."  

[shevo7385]

So then what is the best way to decode the code realtime and generate a response? A cellular app, a device that goes in between the mic and the radio in the audio line?

[SteveShannon]

59 minutes ago, shevo7385 said:

So then what is the best way to decode the code realtime and generate a response? A cellular app, a device that goes in between the mic and the radio in the audio line?

There’s no response to the station ID. It just is.  

There might be an app that needs no wiring, that simply listens. I don’t know. Study code?

[WRUU653]

3 hours ago, shevo7385 said:

A cellular app,

There are aps for the iPhone but I haven't found them to work all that well.  I think it's really for the FCC if they/you need to identify an issue and where it's coming from. 

 

2 hours ago, Sshannon said:

There’s no response to the station ID. It just is.

this^^^

[gf66]

On 2/15/2023 at 6:46 PM, wrci350 said:

 

3) Your statement about repeaters is incorrect.  Why would 95.1751 spell out an exception for when a repeater didn't have to identify, if *no* repeater needs to identify?

Not saying you are wrong, but I've read enough reg. books put out by the gubment to know that common sense approach doesn't apply to regs produced by them.  I think they do it because they can. Something makes them think of something and they make a reg. Something makes them think of something else and they make a reg. Both go in the book and contradict each other. When it's pointed out they make another one declaring no matter what you can only do x even though one of them says you can do y. I'm in construction, regs/codes change every 2 years.

 

I once asked an inspector "Why would...?" he said I don't know, we can never make up our minds. 

 

[wrci350]

6 hours ago, gf66 said:

Not saying you are wrong,

Yes, but you felt the need to post, which implies that you think I am.  

I will be the first to agree that the FCC regulations can be difficult to read and understand.  They are obviously written by (or at least edited by) a legion of lawyers.  That does not mean they cannot be comprehended, nor does it mean they are full of inconsistencies, although there are certainly some.

The fact that there is constant "discussion" of this particular requirement just highlights why I have a new favorite saying.  There is nothing self-contradictory in 95.1751.  The opening paragraph is:

Each GMRS station must be identified by transmission of its FCC-assigned call sign at the end of transmissions and at periodic intervals during transmissions except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section. A unit number may be included after the call sign in the identification.

Repeaters are GMRS stations.  Therefor they must identify ... except for one case, which is spelled out in paragraph (c). If it is a private repeater (only used by people covered under the repeater owner's license) and the individuals identify correctly themselves, then the repeater doesn't have to ID.

If a repeater does not meet the condtions in (c), then it needs to identify.

[nokones]

16 hours ago, wrci350 said:

If a repeater does not meet the condtions in (c), then it needs to identify.

Correct, if "each" station, meaning GMRS stations (control and/or mobile) transmitting to a repeater station for controlling the rebroadcast of a GMRS station, do not identify per the rule. Section 95.1751(c) addresses the station identification requirements for "any" Repeater station.  Section 95.1751(c)(2) says if a GMRS station, meaning a control or mobile station, transmitting a control frequency to the Repeater station, does identifies with their FCC identification according to the subject rule, than the Repeater station does not need to automatically identify in this case.  

[SteveShannon]

4 hours ago, nokones said:

Correct, if "each" station, meaning GMRS stations (control and/or mobile) transmitting to a repeater station for controlling the rebroadcast of a GMRS station, do not identify per the rule. Section 95.1751(c) addresses the station identification requirements for "any" Repeater station.  Section 95.1751(c)(2) says if a GMRS station, meaning a control or mobile station, transmitting a control frequency to the Repeater station, does identifies with their FCC identification according to the subject rule, than the Repeater station does not need to automatically identify in this case.  

You seem to be leaving out the requirement about who is using the repeater.

If I operate a GMRS repeater, that GMRS repeater must be identified using my call sign WROM258.  Nothing says that ID must be automatically performed, but it must be performed at the end of a transmission, and every 15 minutes during a conversation. 

The only exception is if the only people who use the repeater are those who are allowed to use my call sign WROM258 and they are following the rules for using the WROM258 call sign (end and every 15 minutes during).

But, in this example, if the repeater is used by any person with different call sign than WROM258, even if they ID their own station properly, the repeater must be IDed as WROM258. So, if the twelve grandkids are all properly IDing using WROM258 it’s fine, but if my neighbor WXYZ123 gets on, then the repeater ID must be made, no matter how correctly he IDs his own station.

That’s most easily done with an automated ID, but could be manually.

Edited to add some brief examples:

1. Repeater WROM258,  Only my family uses.  They all correctly ID themselves as WROM258.  The repeater doesn’t need a separate ID.

2. Repeater WROM258,  Only my family uses.  One of them fails to correctly ID themselves as WROM258.  The repeater must have a separate ID.

3. Repeater WROM258,  Although it’s primarily used by my family, sometimes someone else uses it.  They all correctly ID themselves..  The repeater must have a separate ID.

4. Repeater WROM258,  Open to the public.  They all correctly ID themselves.  The repeater must have a separate ID.

5. Repeater WROM258,  Open to the public.  Some fail to correctly ID themselves.  The repeater must have a separate ID.

[WRUU653]

36 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

1. Repeater WROM258,  Only my family uses.  They all correctly ID themselves as WROM258.  The repeater doesn’t need a separate ID.

2. Repeater WROM258,  Only my family uses.  One of them fails to correctly ID themselves as WROM258.  The repeater must have a separate ID.

3. Repeater WROM258,  Although it’s primarily used by my family, sometimes someone else uses it.  They all correctly ID themselves..  The repeater must have a separate ID.

4. Repeater WROM258,  Open to the public.  They all correctly ID themselves.  The repeater must have a separate ID.

5. Repeater WROM258,  Open to the public.  Some fail to correctly ID themselves.  The repeater must have a separate ID.

Thank you @Sshannon your examples should make it easy for people to grasp the rules. The only reason the repeater is not required to ID in scenario one I believe is that it would be redundant.

[SteveShannon]

2 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

Thank you @Sshannon your examples should make it easy for people to grasp the rules. The only reason the repeater is not required to ID in scenario one I believe is that it would be redundant.

Exactly!  That’s the only reason.  I know the granularity of these five examples borders on ridiculousness, but this was the simplest way to list all the permutations.

[nokones]

As way the regulation is written, sub-section "c" refers to "any" repeater, because that is what it says "any" repeater.  Yes, it also regulates the station identification requirements for private family only operated repeater(s) and that is spelled out in paragraph (1). Paragraph "2" is separated from Paragraph "1" and does not just mean a family private repeater, and paragraph (2) is still part of sub-section (c) which still means "Any".  Please note that Paragraph 1 sentence ends and the "Any" repeater clause goes on to allow, and again, allow "any repeater" does not have to identify if the control and mobile stations identify, as they are supposed to.

At the beginning of Section 95.1751, "each station" is referring to control and mobile stations, exclusive of Repeater stations.  If it included repeater class of stations, there wouldn't need to be a sub-section (c).  The paragraph (c)(1) clause could have been included in sub-section (a) and be paragraph (3) and there would not be a need for sub-section (c)

Please feel free to get an interpretation from the FCC.  I'm ready to be in position to be chastised and flamed to death.  Government written statutes leaves it up to the means of interpretation.  The point I'm trying to convey would leave a lot of means of interpretation in a court of law.  That is how government writes regulation, policy, and statutes.  I know, I have 36 years of writing and interpreting such statutes, regulations, and policies.

Is it confusing, O' hell yes.  You carefully have to read it as it is written and try to understand, what in the hell are they trying to regulate/allow.

[SteveShannon]

§ 95.1751 GMRS station identification.

Each GMRS station must be identified by transmission of its FCC-assigned call sign at the end of transmissions and at periodic intervals during transmissions except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section. A unit number may be included after the call sign in the identification. 

(a) The GMRS station call sign must be transmitted: 

(1) Following a single transmission or a series of transmissions; and, 

(2) After 15 minutes and at least once every 15 minutes thereafter during a series of transmissions lasting more than 15 minutes. 

(b) The call sign must be transmitted using voice in the English language or international Morse code telegraphy using an audible tone. 

(c) Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if: 

(1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates; and, 

(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section.

Except it’s not confusing. It’s clearly written. You seem to forget about the word “and” (I emphasized it above) at the end of (C)(1).  That means both (C)(1) and (C)(2) must be true for the exception (C) to be permitted. In general, those two conditions can only be simultaneously true for for family repeaters (and probably some grandafathered stations, but they’re completely different from new licenses.)
 

And I have no clue why you would interpret “Each GMRS station” to exclude repeaters. Each means every. 

[Lscott]

20 minutes ago, nokones said:

allow, and again, allow "any repeater" does not have to identify if the control and mobile stations identify, as they are supposed to.

So long as those stations are operating under the same license as the owner of the repeater. If not then the repeater must self identify. For a private repeater placed into service for use by a family that's the case above. The problems start when "Open Repeaters" are put into operation.

The logic for the above is easy to figure out.

Any station using the repeater, and operating under the owner's license, when they identify it would be the same ID used if the repeater self identified. So requiring the repeater to self identify using the same call sign would be redundant.  

When a station identifying itself under it's own license is not identifying the repeater with the owners ID. Thus the repeater needs to self identify.

This is has all been covered and debated multiple times here.  Too many people get hung up on the difference and don't understand the key point and simply spread the wrong advice around further confusing even more users. It doesn't help when the FCC has neglected it's duty to enforce the rules where people mistakenly assume the lack of enforcement as proof they're right, no they are still wrong.

[WRUU653]

"It retransmits only  (only is key here) communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates" = family 

"and" (also key) "The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section." = they follow identification protocol 

 

[SteveShannon]

Maybe this will help.  Here's the logical structure:

Rule:  The following requirements must be obeyed (Each station must identify itself...)

1. Requirement 1
2. Requirement 2

Except under these conditions:

1. Condition 1, and
2. Condition 2.

 

Because it's a conjunction, a logical AND, both conditions must be true in order to use the exception.  That's the only way the regulation can be interpreted.  There are other examples of regulations that have a logical OR in that same position. If it would help I'd be happy to post one.

I was wrong that the ID doesn't have to be made at the beginning of a transmission. Only at the end and every 15 minutes. 

But I don't think anyone should flame you. Certainly not for being incorrect. God knows I'm incorrect frequently and I hope that people won't flame me for that.

[wrci350]

6 hours ago, nokones said:

At the beginning of Section 95.1751, "each station" is referring to control and mobile stations, exclusive of Repeater stations.  If it included repeater class of stations, there wouldn't need to be a sub-section (c).  The paragraph (c)(1) clause could have been included in sub-section (a) and be paragraph (3) and there would not be a need for sub-section (c).

Where do you get that from?  If it meant "control and mobile stations" it would say that.  It doesn't.  It says "stations".  Repeaters are stations.

I know that's what you THINK the rules say, or what you think they SHOULD say.  That's not what they say.

[Radioguy7268]

It's funny that you're using the wording to create a rule that applies to "family" when the rule in question does not use the word "family". Perhaps you think that is what the rule should say?

It also does not say "individual's license".  If it did have that apostrophe, then it might actually mean a License that belongs to a particular individual.

I still read it as saying that if the individual operator(s) of the repeater use their FCC Station License Call Sign, the repeater itself does not need to identify. You may disagree - and that's OK.

What anyone here thinks doesn't matter. What the FCC thinks is what matters, but I think they don't really care.

 

[SteveShannon]

14 minutes ago, Radioguy7268 said:

It's funny that you're using the wording to create a rule that applies to "family" when the rule in question does not use the word "family". Perhaps you think that is what the rule should say?

It also does not say "individual's license".  If it did have that apostrophe, then it might actually mean a License that belongs to a particular individual.

I still read it as saying that if the individual operator(s) of the repeater use their FCC Station License Call Sign, the repeater itself does not need to identify. You may disagree - and that's OK.

What anyone here thinks doesn't matter. What the FCC thinks is what matters, but I think they don't really care.

 

Here’s the section that defines what it means to “operate under the authority of an individual license”:

(c) Individuals who may operate a GMRS station. This paragraph establishes who may operate a GMRS station under the authority of an individual license. 

(1) Any individual who holds an individual license may operate his or her GMRS stations. 

(2) Any individual who holds an individual license may allow his or her immediate family members to operate his or her GMRS station or stations. Immediate family members are the licensee's spouse, children, grandchildren, stepchildren, parents, grandparents, stepparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, and in-laws. 

(3) Any individual who holds an individual license may allow anyone to operate his or her GMRS station if necessary to communicate an emergency message. 

(4) Any non-individual person that holds a grandfathered GMRS license may allow individuals to operate its grandfathered GMRS station(s) only in accordance with the following paragraphs: 

(i) A partnership may allow its partners and employees to operate its GMRS station(s). 

(ii) A corporation may allow its officers, directors, members and employees to operate its GMRS station(s). 

(iii) An association may allow its members and employees to operate its GMRS station(s). 

(iv) A governmental unit may allow its employees to operate its GMRS station(s).

Looking back at the paragraphs of the exception please note that the exact same language is used. There simply is no other way to operate “under the authority of an individual license.”  And people working for a grandfathered entity cannot use the corporate license without identifying the repeater because it’s not an individual  license which is a requirement for the exception:

c) Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if: 

(1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates; and, 

(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section.

[gf66]

On 2/19/2023 at 2:49 PM, wrci350 said:

Yes, but you felt the need to post, which implies that you think I am.  

Not wrong about the way things are, I have no idea if your take is right or wrong,  but wrong to try and use common sense to prove your point when it comes to regs.   

 

[shevo7385]

I see that some repeaters have them built in.