OK, It's way past time to be proactive.... Repeater access orientation (Video or ZOOM)

[WQWX838]

Hello GMRS "gang",

After a few postings and reflection, it is clear that GMRS owners need to make an orientation video, and/or hold a group zoom for new users before allowing access. This will be my approach 100%. In this meeting or video, politely addressing operational guidelines and expectations up front would really help! Because new users have no idea what to do, and seasoned and fresh "hammy's" are already going down the wrong path, sound mentorship is the answer. Not a rigorous military drill set, but a practical and open discussion. New users WANT to know what to do, and many "hams" think they know what to do. It is an unhealthy combo for sure. It's about getting along, sharing the resource, and not making the repeater owner want to get two sticks and gouge their eardrums out...

[zzz]

As a "new user", I could not agree more.

[gortex2]

Guess it depends on the system. None of my repeaters are open. I do a quick hands on training with those that use them (mostly family and a few close friends) and that is it. I guess it all depends on your use for repeaters. 

[WQWX838]

YES! I agree on your private use scenario... In my area, I would like to make my repeater more accessable, yet the thing that has stopped me is hearing the local "hams" use other systems nearby. I dont want to cause an unpleasant scenario, but the idea for a "user video" seemed best. I'm not sure it will be successful, but I will make it and post it publicly in the next few weeks. It will take some serious planning because it will be hard to make people who have an "h" license understand that they need to go back to step 1 and unlearn some pretty awful on-air habits, and some of those may have come from CB radio also to be fair. The recent thread about using Q codes on voice mode was a real colon clutcher. I had forgotten about that one!

[WRQC527]

1 hour ago, WQWX838 said:

it will be hard to make people who have an "h" license understand that they need to go back to step 1 and unlearn some pretty awful on-air habits

I would hazard a guess here that the "awful habits" brush you paint the general ham radio community with is that hams tend to talk more, and that "awful habit" doesn't fit with the GMRS service. Ragchewing on a GMRS repeater is probably not part of the use case for GMRS, but the reality is that it happens. Remember that they are two different services, with at times completely different use cases. As a GMRS user, I keep my transmissions short and sweet, usually on a repeater that I am a paid user of. As a ham, my ham friends and I carry on discussions on my repeater that last quite a while. I have no intention of unlearning anything. What I do is treat each radio service with common sense, and use each one for what it's pretty much intended for, paying special attention to the rules and guidelines of the repeater owner. There are GMRS people here who cannot stand hams, and there are hams here who have a hard time with GMRS folks. Then there are those of us in the middle with dual citizenship who can't quite figure out why either side is sniping at the other side, and who would much rather see everyone play nice. 

[marcspaz]

50 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

Then there are those of us in the middle with dual citizenship who can't quite figure out why either side is sniping at the other side, and who would much rather see everyone play nice. 

QFT!

 

51 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

... use each one for what it's pretty much intended for...

If I may add on to this (not directed to you), I am going to play both sides of this debate.  The purpose of the Amateur Radio Service (also known as "ham" radio) in the United States is to provide a hobby and public service for individuals who are interested in radio communication and electronics experimentation.  The purpose of GMRS is for short-distance two-way communications of licensees and their immediate family, for business or pleasure.  Based on the definitions provided by the FCC, the idea that GMRS is exclusively utilitarian is not an accurate, in my opinion. There is overlap because of the interest in radio communications, even though GMRS is so much more restricted in use of hardware, power and range.

I think OP is leaning more toward operating etiquette.  I could be wrong.  I like the idea of community members volunteering to make an orientation video and I like the idea of new people wanting to learn and having it as a resource.  It just needs to focus on things specific to rules, technology and equipment to help people on getting started; not opinions about behavior, use, etc.

While I occasionally violate this myself, I believe we should speak in plain English and if you are on a wide coverage area repeater, it's not a great idea to talk for hours.  I recommend against tying up the repeater and radio waves for 2,000 sq miles or more for hours a day, several days a week, is kind of greedy. 

That said, it's up to the operator to decide what lingo, habits, and method they use on the service.  As mentioned, the purpose of GMRS is for short-distance two-way communications to ease the activities of licensees and their immediate family.  If that means rag-chewing, that is up to the operators involved.  It's not really up to any one of us to tell anyone else how to use their radio/license. 

As far as repeaters go, the owner doesn't own the airwaves, but they own the hardware and can set the rules for sharing, if they want to share at all.

[WRQC527]

22 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

GMRS is so much more restricted in use of hardware, power and range.

Absolutely, as well as bandwidth. GMRS has a very limited number of set frequencies, so proper etiquette often dictates short transmissions and like you said, short-distance communications, whereas ham radio has an incredibly wide range of available frequencies and modes across numerous bands, and covers everything from short distance simplex to global communication. Where the OP is going off the rails is by driving that overused wedge farther between ham and GMRS, as so often happens here. Truth be told, I'm sitting here listening to a couple of guys on a GMRS repeater here in SoCal who have been ragchewing for the better part of an hour.

[bd348]

When repeaters are linked to 20 others then it almost seems like the intention is to be more social, and not so much only about short comms with family and close friends.

[WQWX838]

45 minutes ago, bd348 said:

When repeaters are linked to 20 others then it almost seems like the intention is to be more social, and not so much only about short comms with family and close friends.

Excellent point. If we don our reality glasses looking at this scenario, we see that extensively linked networks are those requiring fees. So this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I read all the comments thus far. Thanks to all for those. 

[gortex2]

Linking is the problem with GMRS. I know many think its great but it does cause a mess in some regards. 

[bd348]

I'm fine with the linking so long as it is only consuming one of the 8 repeater frequencies in an area.  Some of these folks are handicapped or retirement home types who cannot get out and this social life is good for them.  And even with 20 or whatever repeaters linked together most of the time they are still not being used 24/7.

And I kind of wish people were more outgoing about these conversations.  I'd be fine with "Hi I am XYZ.  Anyone want to talk about <topic>?"  Mostly it's just comparing weather and such.

On the local non-linked repeater there are a number of tradesmen talking their craft going to/from work, which is kind of fun to listen to if you are into home repair or such.

As for the original topic here, ID requirements and the need for a pause to let people jump in seems to take care of most of it.

[SteveShannon]

On 2/23/2023 at 6:41 AM, WQWX838 said:

Hello GMRS "gang",

After a few postings and reflection, it is clear that GMRS owners need to make an orientation video, and/or hold a group zoom for new users before allowing access. This will be my approach 100%. In this meeting or video, politely addressing operational guidelines and expectations up front would really help! Because new users have no idea what to do, and seasoned and fresh "hammy's" are already going down the wrong path, sound mentorship is the answer. Not a rigorous military drill set, but a practical and open discussion. New users WANT to know what to do, and many "hams" think they know what to do. It is an unhealthy combo for sure. It's about getting along, sharing the resource, and not making the repeater owner want to get two sticks and gouge their eardrums out...

What it all boils down to is that you have your vision of what’s acceptable and anything else is not acceptable. 

Whether you like it or not, GMRS is the Wild West of licensed services. People are still homesteading it for a myriad of purposes and testing to see what works. 

For some people it’s the ability to ragchew with others without taking a test. Perhaps one side or the other is a ham, bringing practices that you view as bad habits, but as much as people whine about it, it’s not prohibited. In fact, I’d love to see a list of what you consider those bad habits. 
With others it’s simply the ability to briefly get a message to someone else. 
There are those who build repeaters for the purpose of sharing freely and then there are those who want to monetize GMRS by building a repeater. 
None of those practices are currently prohibited. If you really can’t live with any of them you should try to get the rules changed. 

[WRQC527]

32 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

In fact, I’d love to see a list of what you consider those bad habits. 

I think this guy is simply parroting the same anti-ham rhetoric that he reads here. So far he hasn't offered any concrete examples of bad habits, only vague references and disjointed posts. 

[WRUU653]

15 hours ago, WQWX838 said:

I dont want to cause an unpleasant scenario, but the idea for a "user video" seemed best.

Yeah but video killed the radio star

[WRUU653]

37 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

So far he hasn't offered any concrete examples of bad habits, only vague references and disjointed posts. 

You are correct sir… Like people talking on radios, I mean what’s next right? The audacity.

[WQWX838]

39 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

I think this guy is simply parroting the same anti-ham rhetoric that he reads here. So far he hasn't offered any concrete examples of bad habits, only vague references and disjointed posts. 

Well, in my attempt to keep the flare ups at a minimum, I have tried to not go into detail... Its OK though, I will go ahead and list them in detail this weekend on this thread. Just to be crystal clear, I do not position as "anti-hammy" and take note I did qualify to say that some of this likely comes from CB also. I guess you may or may not be surprised to know that I have a "ham" type license. I never have identified as such though in my life... It's just a thing really. Stand by for detailed list this weekend when I get time, especially since one or two users have politely asked what I mean exactly. I take nothing here personally at all. Thanks!

[WRQC527]

5 minutes ago, WQWX838 said:

Stand by for detailed list this weekend when I get time,

Don't trouble yourself. Seriously. Don't. 

[WQWX838]

17 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

Don't trouble yourself. Seriously. Don't. 

Yeah, I understand 100%. It is right at the core of how new hardware sales are propped up. If I decide to list my repeater, the "orientation video" will deal with some of these issues with as much tact as possible. Thank you for the "heads up".

[SteveShannon]

Just now, WQWX838 said:

Yeah, I understand 100%. It is right at the core of how new hardware sales are propped up. If I decide to list my repeater, the "orientation video" will deal with some of these issues with as much tact as possible. Thank you for the "heads up".

I would like to see the list.  If I'm doing something that is a problem I want to know about it.  I can always learn and improve.

[WQWX838]

3 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

I would like to see the list.  If I'm doing something that is a problem I want to know about it.  I can always learn and improve.

Thanks Sshannon, you seem like a humble guy that does not fall over your own ego! I too always have room to improve here in many ways, and will stop when I have my dirt nap! I had a zoom meeting yesterday with an agency partner, and we discussed making field radio use more efficient for multiple users doing different tasks. The issue was one NOT raised by me but some others. After it was all done, we could see that "on-air" guidelines were not effectively outlined. Oh yes, here comes the "orientation video"... So, let me consider how big the blow-back may be if I listed everything here vs. just putting up an orientation video for my own repeater viewable by anyone with the link. Sometimes things like this are tough... It is my desire to make crystal clear I am not "anti-ham", as that would make zero sense! Thanks!!!

[WRQC527]

44 minutes ago, WQWX838 said:

I do not position as "anti-hammy"

Being an extra-class amateur while using words like "hammy" and phrases like "ham-type license" tends to throw shade on your credibility. It's not that we don't want to see your extensive list of grievances with the amateur radio community, it's more that I don't want you to feel pressure to waste an entire weekend doing it. 

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, WQWX838 said:

Thanks Sshannon, you seem like a humble guy that does not fall over your own ego! I too always have room to improve here in many ways, and will stop when I have my dirt nap! I had a zoom meeting yesterday with an agency partner, and we discussed making field radio use more efficient for multiple users doing different tasks. The issue was one NOT raised by me but some others. After it was all done, we could see that "on-air" guidelines were not effectively outlined. Oh yes, here comes the "orientation video"... So, let me consider how big the blow-back may be if I listed everything here vs. just putting up an orientation video for my own repeater viewable by anyone with the link. Sometimes things like this are tough... It is my desire to make crystal clear I am not "anti-ham", as that would make zero sense! Thanks!!!

I see nothing wrong with what you propose.  It's your repeater so you can impose rules that make it more enjoyable for you and your users.  I am a ham and I am a GMRS user and I see them as different radio services, used for different purposes, but as I said earlier, it's like the Wild West still with lots of people finding new ways to use GMRS that don't always fit others' concepts.  I think it's too simplistic to blame that on others, but we can all share in developing solutions.

[SteveShannon]

5 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

Being an extra-class amateur while using words like "hammy" and phrases like "ham-type license" tends to throw shade on your credibility. It's not that we don't want to see your extensive list of grievances with the amateur radio community, it's more that I don't want you to feel pressure to waste an entire weekend doing it. 

Yes, constantly putting the word ham and its variations in sneer quotes rankled me also at first.  It was a little like being at a party and having a drunken guest constantly doing air quotes where they really didn't belong.  

[WQWX838]

8 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

Being an extra-class amateur while using words like "hammy" and phrases like "ham-type license" tends to throw shade on your credibility. It's not that we don't want to see your extensive list of grievances with the amateur radio community, it's more that I don't want you to feel pressure to waste an entire weekend doing it. 

OK... I am amazed by this really... I had no idea this was an issue. It is slang after all in English?, and I will refrain from using it. I will address it as amateur radio. That is not slang. Please don't be offended, English culture is every bit as amazing as others. I had no clue quotes were sneers! I have seen a few things on this forum that I had not a clue what it even meant. I could not tell if it was a compliment, insult, or what... Yeah, that is how true it is.

[WRQC527]

7 minutes ago, WQWX838 said:

I will address it as amateur radio.

Do you hear anyone else saying "GMRS-y" or GMRS-y GMRS" or "GMRS-type license"?