Good GMRS or Ham HT for railroad scanning?

[NotaSAAB]

I recently obtained my Technician's license so I could legally scan in my state (MN) and obtained a GMRS license at about the same time as it seems more aligned with my potential use doing non-radio hobby stuff.

Which handheld would be a good balance of scanning capability (sensitivity, speed of scanning, ability to select only certain frequencies for scanning) and GMRS functionality?  

For background, I have an old 20-channel Radio Shack handheld that served me well for a long time for scanning railroad band + 457.9375 (end of train device freq). I usually only want to scan 20 or less channels depending upon my location (based on the railroads of interest and what channels they use in that location).

I now have a Radioddity GM-30, a BTech GMRS v2 and a Explorer QRZ-1 which I'm still learning.  I also have a couple of Signal Stick antennas (SMA-M SMA-F).

From my searches so far, I should be looking at setting up scan groups and enabling/disabling frequencies from scanning if my handhelds have those capabilities.

Would I see any noticeable improvement in scanning/receiving performance with something like a Wouxon KG-935 Plus, KG-UV8H or KG-UV9PX?  Is there another deviceI should consider, such as Yaesu FT-70DR or VX-6R based on superior scanning capability?

If I have a good HT for my purpose, is there a mobile that would be similarly useful for my use case?

I'm not really interested in TX much unless it's with friends/family on GMRS most likely unless there's some other mode that seems useful.  I already have enough hobbies. 

Thank you!

[back4more70]

18 minutes ago, NotaSAAB said:

I recently obtained my Technician's license so I could legally scan in my state (MN)

Are you required to obtain a ham license to scan frequencies in your state?  I'm curious, I didn't know that was a law in MN.

[WRQC527]

In my experience with my MARS/CAP modded FT-70, it does transmit on GMRS, but with reduced power. So you could set up groups, etc, but as far as GMRS functionality, it's lacking and not even legal. My UV-5R can also scan and has actually better performance on GMRS, but again it's not legal, and you can't set up groups of channels. Functionality on both ham and GMRS is a matter of how much you want to bend the rules. My Yaesu HTs are generally more sensitive and better for scanning rail frequencies but not really good for GMRS. So to me you may need multiple radios to reach your goal. That's just me though.

[wrci350]

Based on the fact that you've told us that you have two GMRS HT and one dual-band HT, and that you aren't planning to transmit much (if at all) and if so it will be on GMRS, my advice would be:  get another scanner.

You mentioned rail.  Is that the only thing you want to listen to?  If so, then a Uniden BC125AT will be cheaper than any of those other HTs you list and work much better as a scanner than any of them.

If you are interested in public safety, then depending on where you live a scanner may be your only option.  None of those HTs will pick up P25 (for starters).

[BoxCar]

33 minutes ago, back4more70 said:

Are you required to obtain a ham license to scan frequencies in your state?  I'm curious, I didn't know that was a law in MN.

You do not need an FCC license to LISTEN to any radio frequency.

[wrci350]

9 minutes ago, BoxCar said:

You do not need an FCC license to LISTEN to any radio frequency.

From an FCC standpoint that is true.  BUT ... there ARE states where listening to a scanner while mobile is not legal ... unless you have a ham radio license.

[BoxCar]

56 minutes ago, NotaSAAB said:

I recently obtained my Technician's license so I could legally scan in my state (MN) and obtained a GMRS license at about the same time as it seems more aligned with my potential use doing non-radio hobby stuff.

 

Would I see any noticeable improvement in scanning/receiving performance with something like a Wouxon KG-935 Plus, KG-UV8H or KG-UV9PX?  Is there another deviceI should consider, such as Yaesu FT-70DR or VX-6R based on superior scanning capability?

If I have a good HT for my purpose, is there a mobile that would be similarly useful for my use case?

I'm not really interested in TX much unless it's with friends/family on GMRS most likely unless there's some other mode that seems useful.  I already have enough hobbies. 

Thank you!

My suggestion would be for handheld, a Yaesu FT-4XR or FT-65. Both can be set to receive outside the amateur frequencies through the keyboard on the radio. The instructions are easily found on YouTube.

[WRHS218]

I have my KG-935G programmed with all of the railroad frequencies. It doesn't scan as fast as a stand alone scanner but it works well for me. I have even caught a few defect detectors out in the middle of nowhere. I use it on long trips and can hear yard traffic.

Sean

[NotaSAAB]

3 hours ago, back4more70 said:

Are you required to obtain a ham license to scan frequencies in your state?  I'm curious, I didn't know that was a law in MN.

Yeah.  See Sec. 299C.37 MN Statutes and particularly the part that says 

Quote

(c) An amateur radio license holder who exercises the privilege granted by paragraph (a) shall carry the amateur radio license in the motor vehicle at all times and shall present the license to a peace officer on request. A violation of this paragraph is a petty misdemeanor. A second or subsequent violation is a misdemeanor.

You can apply for a permit without the Ham license, but you have to show "good cause" and I actually am not real interested in listening to police frequencies on any regular basis anyway.

[NotaSAAB]

3 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

In my experience with my MARS/CAP modded FT-70, it does transmit on GMRS, but with reduced power. So you could set up groups, etc, but as far as GMRS functionality, it's lacking and not even legal. My UV-5R can also scan and has actually better performance on GMRS, but again it's not legal, and you can't set up groups of channels. Functionality on both ham and GMRS is a matter of how much you want to bend the rules. My Yaesu HTs are generally more sensitive and better for scanning rail frequencies but not really good for GMRS. So to me you may need multiple radios to reach your goal. That's just me though.

Thanks.  So, the FT-70 is fairly good as a scanner?  I'm not totally opposed to having more than one HT with me... having a combination of good scanning, some Ham TX capability and GMRS is my goal.  If that means a separate GMRS radio, that's fine. If I can get good scanning and GMRS in one unit, that's alright, too. Ham is a nice-to-have, but can justify its own HT in my mind.

[NotaSAAB]

3 hours ago, wrci350 said:

Based on the fact that you've told us that you have two GMRS HT and one dual-band HT, and that you aren't planning to transmit much (if at all) and if so it will be on GMRS, my advice would be:  get another scanner.

You mentioned rail.  Is that the only thing you want to listen to?  If so, then a Uniden BC125AT will be cheaper than any of those other HTs you list and work much better as a scanner than any of them.

If you are interested in public safety, then depending on where you live a scanner may be your only option.  None of those HTs will pick up P25 (for starters).

I'd kind of like to have at least two capabilities in one device, if possible. 3 things in one would be great, but seems to be a regulatory non-starter. I've thought about the BC125AT... I'll have to see how specialized the charging accessories are to see if it's worth the trouble.

I'd be interested in listening to railroad, air band, marine + perhaps public safety, but I'm not sure how useful that would be with the encrypted systems likely in use around me.

[NotaSAAB]

2 hours ago, wrci350 said:

From an FCC standpoint that is true.  BUT ... there ARE states where listening to a scanner while mobile is not legal ... unless you have a ham radio license.

Yes, the problem in my state is when you sit down in a vehicle with that scanner, but I have to say getting the Technician license was simple enough once I got around to it. 

[Lscott]

5 hours ago, NotaSAAB said:

I recently obtained my Technician's license so I could legally scan in my state (MN) and obtained a GMRS license at about the same time as it seems more aligned with my potential use doing non-radio hobby stuff.

Which handheld would be a good balance of scanning capability (sensitivity, speed of scanning, ability to select only certain frequencies for scanning) and GMRS functionality?  

For background, I have an old 20-channel Radio Shack handheld that served me well for a long time for scanning railroad band + 457.9375 (end of train device freq). I usually only want to scan 20 or less channels depending upon my location (based on the railroads of interest and what channels they use in that location).

I now have a Radioddity GM-30, a BTech GMRS v2 and a Explorer QRZ-1 which I'm still learning.  I also have a couple of Signal Stick antennas (SMA-M SMA-F).

From my searches so far, I should be looking at setting up scan groups and enabling/disabling frequencies from scanning if my handhelds have those capabilities.

Would I see any noticeable improvement in scanning/receiving performance with something like a Wouxon KG-935 Plus, KG-UV8H or KG-UV9PX?  Is there another deviceI should consider, such as Yaesu FT-70DR or VX-6R based on superior scanning capability?

If I have a good HT for my purpose, is there a mobile that would be similarly useful for my use case?

I'm not really interested in TX much unless it's with friends/family on GMRS most likely unless there's some other mode that seems useful.  I already have enough hobbies. 

Thank you!

The railroads use VHF while GMRS is on UHF. My understanding is various railroads were intending to switch over to digital voice using NXDN. Analog FM is still frequently used I believe. 

There are no Ham specific radios that will do NXDN. Your only choice is one of the commercial radios. The two main manufacturers of NXDN radios is Kenwood and Icom. The one radio model I see mentioned frequently for railroad scanning is the Kenwood NX-210. The basically identical radio is the NX-200. These radios you can purchase used on some of the major auction sites. 

https://pdfs.kenwoodproducts.com/2/NX-200&300Brochure.pdf

The UHF version, the 450-520 band split, works fine for GMRS and has the advantage it’s Part 95 certified so there is zero issue if it’s legal to use.

I have a code plug built for the NX-200 for all of the VHF railroad frequencies, analog and digital, along with MURS, some Ham simplex frequencies and the NOAA weather channels. If you go that route I can send you a copy.

[wrci350]

10 hours ago, NotaSAAB said:

I'd kind of like to have at least two capabilities in one device, if possible. 3 things in one would be great, but seems to be a regulatory non-starter. I've thought about the BC125AT... I'll have to see how specialized the charging accessories are to see if it's worth the trouble.

Understood.  My personal philsophy is the opposite:  I only program frequencies into a transceiver that I have a license to transmit on.  Anything else goes into a scanner.

You are correct about FCC regulations forbidding Part 95 E (GMRS) and Part 97 (Amateur Radio) in one device.  Yes, there are plenty of Part 90 radios available to buy new that will do both, and using them for ham radio is perfectly fine, but they are not type-accepted for GMRS.  (There are also older Part 90 devices that have a grandfathered GMRS type-acceptance that can be purchased used, but that's not a path I've gone down personally.)

10 hours ago, NotaSAAB said:

I'd be interested in listening to railroad, air band, marine + perhaps public safety, but I'm not sure how useful that would be with the encrypted systems likely in use around me.

Just out of curiosity, what county are you in?  I'm wondering if there is any analog public safety where you live and how much encryption is in use.

Rail, air, and marine are all analog ... but air is AM, so if you want to listen with an HT you will need one that does AM.  I think those exist, but they are the exception, not the rule.  As @Lscott mentioned, there is a long-term plan to move rail traffic to NXDN.  I have heard that some yard operations have moved to NXDN but I am unaware of any widespread adoption yet.  NXDN is doable on a scanner too but you are looking at probably 4x the cost of a BC125AT unless you buy used.
 

[NotaSAAB]

1 hour ago, wrci350 said:

Just out of curiosity, what county are you in?  I'm wondering if there is any analog public safety where you live and how much encryption is in use.

Rail, air, and marine are all analog ... but air is AM, so if you want to listen with an HT you will need one that does AM.  I think those exist, but they are the exception, not the rule.  As @Lscott mentioned, there is a long-term plan to move rail traffic to NXDN.  I have heard that some yard operations have moved to NXDN but I am unaware of any widespread adoption yet.  NXDN is doable on a scanner too but you are looking at probably 4x the cost of a BC125AT unless you buy used.
 

I am in Dakota County. 

Until the western Class Is move to NXDN over the road, I'm not too concerned about that yet. 

[wrci350]

9 minutes ago, NotaSAAB said:

I am in Dakota County. 

Thanks.  I don't think I've ever checked a county in Minnesota in the RadioReference DB before.  Looks like most public safety (and other services) is on a state-wide 800 MHz P25 Phase I trunked system.  Not much encryption (knock on virtual wood), but none of those HTs will pick up traffic on that system.  The one thing I do see for your county is a couple analog Fire channels, which are probably patches from the TRS.  But if you're not interested in monitoring public safety then no big deal.

@NotaSAABGood luck with your hunt and keep us posted!

[NotaSAAB]

30 minutes ago, wrci350 said:

Thanks.  I don't think I've ever checked a county in Minnesota in the RadioReference DB before.  Looks like most public safety (and other services) is on a state-wide 800 MHz P25 Phase I trunked system.  Not much encryption (knock on virtual wood), but none of those HTs will pick up traffic on that system.  The one thing I do see for your county is a couple analog Fire channels, which are probably patches from the TRS.  But if you're not interested in monitoring public safety then no big deal.

@NotaSAABGood luck with your hunt and keep us posted!

Hmmm... are there affordable Ham or GMRS radios that would be worth considering for unencrypted P25 Phase I trunked?  

I'm going to see what I can do with scanning on my existing HTs to filter down to just the few RR channels of interest to speed things up. Then we'll see if I'm hearing what I think I should be hearing. 

Thank you all for your comments & suggestions.  

[Sshannon]

1 minute ago, NotaSAAB said:

Hmmm... are there affordable Ham or GMRS radios that would be worth considering for unencrypted P25 Phase I trunked?  

I'm going to see what I can do with scanning on my existing HTs to filter down to just the few RR channels of interest to speed things up. Then we'll see if I'm hearing what I think I should be hearing. 

Thank you all for your comments & suggestions.  

There are no GMRS radios that receive P25.

[wrci350]

3 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

There are no GMRS radios that receive P25.

Nor amateur radios.

There is some use of P25 (simplex) in the ham world, but folks who are into that use commercial radios (normally old used ones).  You won't find an off-the-shelf amateur radio that does P25.  Keep in mind too, that we're talking simplex, not trunked.  P25 trunking systems are a whole 'nother animal.  While there *are* other options, a scanner is by far the most straightforward.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, NotaSAAB said:

Hmmm... are there affordable Ham or GMRS radios that would be worth considering for unencrypted P25 Phase I trunked?  

I doubt you'll have much luck with that. The following is my understanding.

Typically the trunking systems requires the radios to register, or affiliate, with the system. The trunking systems are designed so any radio that accesses the system has to be preregistered on the system. The radio requires special programming using a system key file that is tied to the specific trunking system and has to be obtained from the system owner, which you most likely will never get. In fact the TK-5220/5320 Kenwood radios I have won't allow you to even edit the trunking system network info in the programming software without first loading the system key file. All you see it the default values which you can't change.

The radio when it receives a transmission it's coded such that the radio knows it's from a trunked system. Without the programming with the system key file the radio will not decode the audio. That's how they maintain security.

I have a buddy that purchased a used Motorola XTS-5000 on 800MHz. There was a hack he found so the radio could be spoofed in to doing what is called "non-affiliated" scanning. I haven't heard of others using different radios successfully.

Even if you did find a way to scan a P25 trunked system your efforts might still be wasted since more agencies are going encrypted.

Then there is P25 Phase 2 which is specific for trunking systems. Unless you pay BIG bucks for a newer P25 radio with Phase 2 you're dead in the water if that's what they are using. All my radios are Phase 1 since I use them for Ham and monitoring commercial conventional repeater systems. As far as I know Phase 2 is not used on the Ham bands.

The NXDN trunked systems work about the same. I did read someplace where it was claimed some of the Icom radios will do "non-affiliated" scanning. I know the Kenwood radios won't.

One other thing about the Kenwood NX-210 radios. I think there is railroad specific firmware for them too, so if you're looking to buy you might want to inquire with the seller if that the case. Since the NX-200's are basically the same radio I haven't been all the interested in getting one so I never worried about it or researched it.

[axorlov]

I bought Uniden BCD325P2 scanner few months ago, used. They are expensive new, but pop on ebay for much less, depending on condition and accessories. https://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/BCD325P2

It does P25 Phase 2, along with Motorola, EDACS, LTR and DMR. However, in my county all city police departments and sheriff are encrypted. Fire is not encrypted, at least some dispatch channels. Analog scanning is great, much faster that any HT would possibly do. I use FreeScan to program, cable is regular mini-USB.

[wrci350]

 

37 minutes ago, axorlov said:

I bought Uniden BCD325P2 scanner few months ago

It does P25 Phase 2, along with Motorola, EDACS, LTR and DMR. 

NXDN too, although it and DMR require a key to unlock them (which cost $).

I have a BCD325P2 scanner and I love it.  It's the one I take when I go for a walk outside or on the treadmill at the Y.

BUT ... if one is trying to listen to a simulcast P25 system (which the Minnesota statewide system is) the odds are very much against you.  Chances are it will work very poorly or not at all, unless you happen to be very close to one of the towers in the site you want to monitor.

The only scanners available that are designed to monitor simulcast systems are the Uniden SDS100 and SDS200, which go for $650 or $700 new.

I *wish* the BCD325P2 could handle simulcast.  But it doesn't.

[WRQC527]

16 hours ago, NotaSAAB said:

So, the FT-70 is fairly good as a scanner?

It's good in the sense that it will scan, and its versatile in that you can set up channel groups, etc, but it's not nearly as fast as a dedicated scanner. If all you need is scanning for listening, I would lean toward a dedicated handheld scanner. 

[NotaSAAB]

58 minutes ago, wrci350 said:

BUT ... if one is trying to listen to a simulcast P25 system (which the Minnesota statewide system is) the odds are very much against you.  Chances are it will work very poorly or not at all, unless you happen to be very close to one of the towers in the site you want to monitor.

The only scanners available that are designed to monitor simulcast systems are the Uniden SDS100 and SDS200, which go for $650 or $700 new.

I *wish* the BCD325P2 could handle simulcast.  But it doesn't.

Yeah, I think this all pretty much clears it up for me.  I'll be okay with not having public safety freqs.

Thanks, all.  

So, maybe I'll get Yaesu FT-70DR or VX-6R to listen in on air band while having some Ham TX capability... and/or get a BC125.

[axorlov]

2 hours ago, wrci350 said:

BUT ... if one is trying to listen to a simulcast P25 system (which the Minnesota statewide system is) the odds are very much against you.  Chances are it will work very poorly or not at all, unless you happen to be very close to one of the towers in the site you want to monitor.

Does locking out or deleting all sites except one help? I'm listening to simulcast P25 system, but I'm very close to one of the sites.

[wrci350]

25 minutes ago, axorlov said:

Does locking out or deleting all sites except one help? I'm listening to simulcast P25 system, but I'm very close to one of the sites.

No, because a "site" in a simulcast system isn't a tower, it's a group of towers, all transmitting the same information at the same time on the same frequencies.  So there is no way to lock out all but the closest tower, since all the others are using the same frequencies.  That's the whole simulcast issue.  The signals come in slightly out of phase due to the varying distance between the transmitters and receiver, which totally 'confuses' a conventional receiver.

The SDS scanners are SDR-based and able to deal with the out-of-phase signals.  There are other solutions (which are also SDR-based) but none of them are scanners in the conventional sense.  Subscriber radios can also handle the simulcast (of course) but that's not an option for most people.

In your particular case, you have "won the simulcast lottery" since you are close to one of the towers, and the transmissions coming from that tower effectively drown out the others and the receiver can decode the digital stream.  My luck is not that good, and my BCD352P2 is lucky to even lock onto a control channel of the local P25 system, and even if it can, I get at best snippets of voice traffic.

In the OP's case, it looks like there are 11 towers in his county that make up one simulcast site.  Again, if one lived very close to one tower then a non-SDS scanner would probably work OK.  Otherwise?  Not so much.

This is a very frequent topic over on RadioReference.  There are a vocal few that proclaim, "Well, it works for me so it should work for everyone" and that's simply not the case.  I would LOVE IT if the BCD325P2 worked on the local TRS.  I would never have purchased an SDS scanner if that was true!