Baofang transcievers and issue with local repeaters

[WRXM214]

Hi everyone,

I recently purchased two Baofang GM-15 Pro transcievers, and am a little confused when trying to utilize a local repeater.

Both radios are set to use the proper CTCSS tone for both TX and RX.  Each can individually send and receive to the repeater, and I've had successful radio checks from other users of the repeater with each radio.  But when I try sending messages between the two radios, it doesn't go through. 

They have an LED light which is red when transmitting and green when receiving. When I key a radio and send a message, the light is red while keyed. As soon as I let up, it switches to green. In fact, both radios receive a transmission of the radio's "Roger" beep that transmits when the key is let up on the first radio.  But I don't actually receive the message. Doesn't matter if the radios are nearby or miles apart.

I've read about Tail and RP-STE, but don't know exactly what they are, if they're something vendor specific, or even relevant.

Thanks in advance for any tips!

 

[OffRoaderX]

...

[wrci350]

55 minutes ago, WRXM214 said:

But when I try sending messages between the two radios, it doesn't go through. 

How close together are the two radios?  If you are holding one in your hand and the other is on the table in front of you, you are more than likely desensing the receiving radio so it cannot "hear" the repeater.

Try having someone take the second radio to the other end of your house, or outside a couple 100 feet away, and try again.

[WRXM214]

3 hours ago, wrci350 said:

How close together are the two radios?  If you are holding one in your hand and the other is on the table in front of you, you are more than likely desensing the receiving radio so it cannot "hear" the repeater.

Try having someone take the second radio to the other end of your house, or outside a couple 100 feet away, and try again.

I've tried up to and including 6 miles away. This was my initial thought when my first tests were less than a meter apart. But same behavior from afar.

[WRUU653]

Try turning the RX tones off on both radios, run the test with both radios again. If you start receiving then it may be that one of your tones was wrong, in any event you should be able to hear all incoming audio on the channel and be able to verify your TX is opening the repeater. 

[Guest]

15 hours ago, WRXM214 said:

Each can individually send and receive to the repeater, and I've had successful radio checks from other users of the repeater with each radio.  But when I try sending messages between the two radios, it doesn't go through. 

I tried to think through that scenario and the only logical answers are that the radios are cursed by a spell that makes them disregard each other (but not any other radio) ... or ... they are on different repeaters  - Let's think through this:

If your radio A gets acknowledged by another user using radio C, than A is correctly set up to use the repeater that C uses. RX and TX frequencies and tones.

If your radio B gets acknowledged by another user using radio D, than B is correctly set up to use the repeater that D uses. RX and TX frequencies and tones.

If C and D are on the same repeater, than A and B are set to the same repeater => ergo => A and B must be able to speak to each other.

If you have A and B running and someone (C or D pr any) is using the repeater and both receive, then they are on the same repeater.

 

@WRUU653's solution of turning your RX tone off makes perfect sense as a troubleshooting next step - but, based on the radio checks you got, should not be the answer - in any case, I would still turn off your RX tone (repeater's TX) just to eliminate that possibility.

Honestly, in my early days, I have more than once mixed up the TX and RX tones not paying close attention (your RX tone is the repeater's TX and your TX is the repeater's RX) -- sidenote: Please tell me that you are using a software and that you pushed the same settings from the software (computer) to both radios.

 

First rule of "Fighting with Baofang Club" => Never try field (radio keyboard) programming a Baofang !!! - It will go wrong and you will not be able to see where and how !!!

 

I did not see any specific "magic function" mentioned on the Baofang page and my favorite error - low output volume (trist the volume button further!) - is also just a desperate explanation and easily discarded by the radio check. 

 

It sounds like you did everything correctly...

 

I am going back to the only remaining answer: "CURSED" ! 

 

[WRUU653]

8 minutes ago, WRXD372 said:

I tried to think through that scenario and the only logical answers are that the radios are cursed by a spell that makes them disregard each other (but not any other radio) ... or ... they are on different repeaters  - Let's think through this:

If your radio A gets acknowledged by another user using radio C, than A is correctly set up to use the repeater that C uses. RX and TX frequencies and tones.

If your radio B gets acknowledged by another user using radio D, than B is correctly set up to use the repeater that D uses. RX and TX frequencies and tones.

If C and D are on the same repeater, than A and B are set to the same repeater => ergo => A and B must be able to speak to each other.

If you have A and B running and someone (C or D pr any) is using the repeater and both receive, then they are on the same repeater.

 

@WRUU653's solution of turning your RX tone off makes perfect sense as a troubleshooting next step - but, based on the radio checks you got, should not be the answer - in any case, I would still turn off your RX tone (repeater's TX) just to eliminate that possibility.

Honestly, in my early days, I have more than once mixed up the TX and RX tones not paying close attention (your RX tone is the repeater's TX and your TX is the repeater's RX) -- sidenote: Please tell me that you are using a software and that you pushed the same settings from the software (computer) to both radios.

 

First rule of "Fighting with Baofang Club" => Never try field (radio keyboard) programming a Baofang !!! - It will go wrong and you will not be able to see where and how !!!

 

I did not see any specific "magic function" mentioned on the Baofang page and my favorite error - low output volume (trist the volume button further!) - is also just a desperate explanation and easily discarded by the radio check. 

 

It sounds like you did everything correctly...

 

I am going back to the only remaining answer: "CURSED" ! 

 

You are right on track with my thoughts on this. With two identical radios the only scenario I could think of was human error in the test procedure*. In any event starting with removing RX narrows the testing down.
I agree OP sounds like they’re testing is on point but we all make mistakes. *I once thought my radio was frozen and then realized I hit the lock button the day before on a hike

You bring up an excellent point about checking/programming with software, much easier to get them the same and see what you’ve programmed.

I have no recommendations for the curse option, perhaps offering one Baofeng as a sacrifice?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

I have no recommendations for the curse option, perhaps offering one Baofeng as a sacrifice?

Sounds like a solid plan ! - We will meet by the "big tree" down at the fork in the road into the forest at sunrise ... 

In case the weather does not play along, I will bring the fog machine and a generator for ambiance  -- Who's bringing the popcorn ?!? 

[Guest]

18 hours ago, WRXM214 said:

 But when I try sending messages between the two radios, it doesn't go through. 

Thus far, the answers have been focused on the assumption that your attempt of "sending messages between the two radios" was using the repeater.

@WRXE944 seems to understand your question to be focused on "direct" communication between those radios (simplex)

1 hour ago, WRXE944 said:

But now you want to communicate Simplex between the two radios:

If that is the case, using a simplex channel is the "easy fix" for your problem !

 

Some explanation:

Repeaters cannot receive and transmit on the same frequency - if they wood, they would interfere with themselves and create a feedback loop. The solution id offset: The frequency that the repeater is listening on is different (based on the frequency band and convention) from the frequency it transmits on.

On your radio display, you are looking at your receiving frequency - the repeater's output.

The magic happens when you key up: Your radio changes frequencies from listening to transmitting according to the offset without you noticing.

But, that transmission is on a frequency that your other radio is not listening to (while listening, it does not shift.

One you let go of the key, your radio switches back and you might hear the repeater tailing for a moment (delay between the end of your transmission and the repeater's transmission...

 

Hope this explains how repeaters work and how simplex is not possible on a channel that is programmed as a repeater channel (with offset) 

 

[WRXM214]

17 hours ago, WRXD372 said:

Thus far, the answers have been focused on the assumption that your attempt of "sending messages between the two radios" was using the repeater.

@WRXE944 seems to understand your question to be focused on "direct" communication between those radios (simplex)

I was most definitely trying to communicate via the repeater and not directly between the radios.

I'm leaning on the "cursed radio" option more and more.  The repeater in question is receiving on 467.700 and transmitting on 462.700.  CTCSS is 88.5 Hz for both RX and TX.  My radios have the "repeater" channels preprogrammed, so the only room for user error is entering the CTCSS tone.

I haven't replied as I haven't had a chance to test them without the radio's RX-CTCSS set when they're out of simplex range of each other.  But as soon as I can I'll report back.  Just anecdotally, it made no difference with the radios ~20 meters apart, same behavior.

Thank you all for the replies.  Glad to know that my understanding of how these should work is not wrong.

[Hoppyjr]

You refer to sending messages between radios, so can we assume the audio transmission works as intended?

If so; have you tried the messaging on a simplex channel and if so, does that work?

On page 47 of the user manual, it indicates messaging can not be done on channels 23-30, which are the repeater channels as I recall.

The messaging feature may be designed for simplex only.

https://baofengtech.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/gmrs-pro_cmk1_may-25.pdf

[WRUU653]

54 minutes ago, WRUZ229 said:

You refer to sending messages between radios, so can we assume the audio transmission works as intended?

If so; have you tried the messaging on a simplex channel and if so, does that work?

On page 47 of the user manual, it indicates messaging can not be done on channels 23-30, which are the repeater channels as I recall.

The messaging feature may be designed for simplex only.

https://baofengtech.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/gmrs-pro_cmk1_may-25.pdf

Good catch. I was thinking of audio transmissions not data/text.

[SteveShannon]

Yes, very good catch, if the OP means sending text messages instead of analog voice.  The regulations prohibit sending digital data on the 467 MHz Main channels:

95.1787

(5)GMRS units must not be capable of transmitting digital data on the 467 MHz main channels. 

[WRXM214]

12 hours ago, WRUZ229 said:

You refer to sending messages between radios, so can we assume the audio transmission works as intended?

If so; have you tried the messaging on a simplex channel and if so, does that work?

On page 47 of the user manual, it indicates messaging can not be done on channels 23-30, which are the repeater channels as I recall.

The messaging feature may be designed for simplex only.

https://baofengtech.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/gmrs-pro_cmk1_may-25.pdf

I'm afraid that's not the same model.  The GM-15 PRO and GMRS-PRO are different units.  From what I read online, the Baofang GM-15 Pro is just a rebranded Radioddity GM-30 (or vice versa)?

And yes, I'm referring to voice/audio transmissions only.

Simplex works between the transceivers on GMRS channel 21 (462.7000 MHz).  Tests worked today at a range of 2.3 miles before signal degraded due to hills and losing line of sight.

Based on the recommendations above, I tried removing the RX CTCSS  tone.  Here's the configuration for the radios:

• Radios A and B are both set to "RPT-7" in channel mode.  Per the documentation, this preprogrammed channel transmits on 467.700 MHz and receives on 462.7000 MHz.
• The repeater in question is this one.
• Both radios have TX CTCSS tone set to 88.5 Hz and no RX CTCSS tone.

Here is what I found when requesting a radio check:

• Radio A: hold key, "WRXM214 requesting a radio check. Over."  Let up key.
• Both Radio A and Radio B receive a short static noise roughly 1 sec after I let up key on Radio A.
• Third party replies to radio check and confirms their location is 6 miles away, well out of simplex range.  My signal is weak according to them, but I'm indoors and using a short antenna at the time.  I hear the reply on both Radio A and Radio B.
• I then try transmitting another reply to the same third party from Radio B.  Same behavior on Radio A, it does not play the audio transmission from Radio B but plays the reply from the third party 6 miles away.
• I change Radio A to CH-21 (TX and RX both on 462.7000 MHz, no TX CTCSS tone set).  The third party does not hear it, nor does Radio B.
• I send another audio transmission from Radio B (still set to use the repeater and CTCSS tone).  His reply is received by both of my radios.

 

[WRUU653]

23 minutes ago, WRXM214 said:

I'm afraid that's not the same model.  The GM-15 PRO and GMRS-PRO are different units.  From what I read online, the Baofang GM-15 Pro is just a rebranded Radioddity GM-30 (or vice versa)?

And yes, I'm referring to voice/audio transmissions only.

Simplex works between the transceivers on GMRS channel 21 (462.7000 MHz).  Tests worked today at a range of 2.3 miles before signal degraded due to hills and losing line of sight.

Based on the recommendations above, I tried removing the RX CTCSS  tone.  Here's the configuration for the radios:

• Radios A and B are both set to "RPT-7" in channel mode.  Per the documentation, this preprogrammed channel transmits on 467.700 MHz and receives on 462.7000 MHz.
• The repeater in question is this one.
• Both radios have TX CTCSS tone set to 88.5 Hz and no RX CTCSS tone.

Here is what I found when requesting a radio check:

• Radio A: hold key, "WRXM214 requesting a radio check. Over."  Let up key.
• Both Radio A and Radio B receive a short static noise roughly 1 sec after I let up key on Radio A.
• Third party replies to radio check and confirms their location is 6 miles away, well out of simplex range.  My signal is weak according to them, but I'm indoors and using a short antenna at the time.  I hear the reply on both Radio A and Radio B.
• I then try transmitting another reply to the same third party from Radio B.  Same behavior on Radio A, it does not play the audio transmission from Radio B but plays the reply from the third party 6 miles away.
• I change Radio A to CH-21 (TX and RX both on 462.7000 MHz, no TX CTCSS tone set).  The third party does not hear it, nor does Radio B.
• I send another audio transmission from Radio B (still set to use the repeater and CTCSS tone).  His reply is received by both of my radios.

 

I looked this over several times and I find myself arriving back to the desensing conclusion. How close are the radios during this last test?
Are you programming via a computer? If so could we see an image from that?

[WRXM214]

45 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

I looked this over several times and I find myself arriving back to the desensing conclusion. How close are the radios during this last test?
Are you programming via a computer? If so could we see an image from that?

In the test today as outlined above they were 1 meter apart. It's going to take some coordination to run the test again but far enough apart to rule out interference from each other, as my helpers in this testing process are my kids...

No programming via computer, as I don't have a cable to do so yet.

I think I'm going to put this on a hiatus for a bit. But if I find the cause, I'll be sure to share. Thanks for the thoughts and tips everyone.

[WRUU653]

1 hour ago, WRXM214 said:

In the test today as outlined above they were 1 meter apart. It's going to take some coordination to run the test again but far enough apart to rule out interference from each other, as my helpers in this testing process are my kids...

No programming via computer, as I don't have a cable to do so yet.

I think I'm going to put this on a hiatus for a bit. But if I find the cause, I'll be sure to share. Thanks for the thoughts and tips everyone.

Honestly I don’t know if a meter is enough space with the radios I think I would try more like six. Good luck I hope you get it worked out.

[SteveShannon]

8 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

Honestly I don’t know if a meter is enough space with the radios I think I would try more like six. Good luck I hope you get it worked out.

Yes, my Yaesu radios can be on the same tabletop.  My Baofeng has to be seven or eight feet away.  I would recommend having someone else take the other radio outside.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, WRXM214 said:

No programming via computer, as I don't have a cable to do so yet.

Do yourself a favor and get the cable(s) !!!

Those radios come with some great arguments on their side ($$$ !!!) but their user interface is _______ . (Any sailor can help you out with choice words!)

I have (more than once) followed good step by step instructions just to learn that somewhere there was a minor setting that did not get saved.

Fortunately, those cords (current generations) are inexpensive and actually work (no, that was not always the case - some might remember early generations and their driver and settings and ... just all in all: problems )

Tidradio even offers a Bluetooth dongle that works in connection with a smartphone without the need for a computer... 

 

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, WRXM214 said:

I think I'm going to put this on a hiatus for a bit. But if I find the cause, I'll be sure to share. Thanks for the thoughts and tips everyone.

We are here to help and spitball and learn -- what can go wrong  

 

In the meantime: Do not get discouraged, please. 

 

 

 

[WRUU653]

2 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Yes, my Yaesu radios can be on the same tabletop.  My Baofeng has to be seven or eight feet away.  I would recommend having someone else take the other radio outside.

This has been my experience as well with my Baofeng radios, I need to put them on complete opposite sides of the room or they will mess with each other.