New to GMRS, somewhat disappointed

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, WRXE944 said:

Are their dPMR Repeaters in Europe?

I would assume so since it is used for commercial radio application.

The link below is the main site for dPMR.

https://dpmrassociation.org/

The standards documents are found here.

https://dpmrassociation.org/dpmr-downloads-technical.html

Looking at "Repeaterbook.com" they don't have a selection for dPMR so it's not possible to do a quick search for dPMR enabled repeaters. For example looking at the UK, I might be making a business trip there in the near furture.

https://www.repeaterbook.com/row_repeaters/index.php?state_id=GB

I was interested in the mode due to the possible trip.

They have a license free service there called PMR446.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMR446

The analog FM looks very much like our old rules for FRS but uses a different frequency range. Remember in the UK the Ham 70cm band is only 430 to 440 MHz. Which prompted me to as some time back if anyone notice European visitors using their PMR446 radios here on the Ham band. It would likely be at major tourist locations like Disney Land.

There also two digital voice modes approved for their license free service, DMR and dPMR.

 https://kenwoodcommunications.co.uk/files/file/comms/uk/pmr446/PMR446-White-Paper-V6_18AUG2016_JT_KB.pdf

Since I don't have a dPMR radio I'm looking at taking one of my Kenwood DMR radios and programming it up for FM and DMR on their PMR446 frequencies.

https://forums.mygmrs.com/gallery/image/290-nx-1300duk5/?context=new

https://forums.mygmrs.com/gallery/image/255-tk-d300e-fmdmr/?context=new

Oh, they have the same issue there too with people running non approved radios and power. Their radio commission, like the FCC here, seems to ignore it.  There is a message board like this one but mainly for the UK. You can get an idea on what goes on there by reading through some of the threads.

https://www.transmission1.net/

 

 

 

[Lscott]

Kenwood offers a dPMR446 license free radio that complies with the legal standard for that service.

https://www.walkies.nl/downloads/kenwood-tk-3701d-brochure.pdf

However I'm interested in a higher power dPMR radio. Kenwood, I think it's been discontinued, had a version of their NX-220/320 radio that could be firmware modified to switch from NXDN to dPMR. The link is for the "E" market code radio.

https://www.kenwood.eu/files/file/comms/uk/brochures/nx/NX-220E-320E_Brochure_with_MPT.pdf

I have one of the NX-320K, US market code radios. I might be able to force switch the market code using the "engineer" version of the programming software. However so far I've had zero luck finding the firmware.

[WRXN668]

We went four-wheeling this weekend, went up to Sedona.  On the trail itself the Tidradio TD-5R radios were quite helpful, but we were basically line of sight or not much past it.  They were also helpful for the drive up from Phoenix and back down again, we were able to coordinate stops etc.

In-town was another matter.  I'll have to look up the band-plan or whatever the GMRS equivalent is, there must've been some kind of repeater on one of the channels because occasionally there was a morse-string transmitted, and there was a lot of other random chatter, some of which might have been FRS users.  I haven't looked into what it takes to do CTCSS/DCS or equivalent, I will need to do so.  Finding a clear channel was a bit of a pain but if we can use those features it might work better, presuming that others are also using those features.

I'm now thinking about what I want to do for a mobile install on my truck.  In a nutshell I have three services I would need to deal with... receiving commercial broadcast radio (ie, normal FM, possibly ability to receive AM and satellite radio, but the latter is less important to me), communicating on GMRS, and communicating on amateur radio on various bands that Technician allows.  I'm toying with leveraging either the factory commercial radio broadcast receive antenna location and using a diplexer, or leveraging the existing hole in the roof of the truck where the satellite radio receiver sits in order to do either GMRS or amateur, or both depending on what I ultimately go with.

The shorter wavelength of GMRS may work better with that roof location.  This is an Australian D40 Navara antenna:

This is what they went with instead of a cowl-mounted antenna like on the Frontier, where instead that hole is used for the satellite radio receiver.  If I replace the satellite receiver with a GMRS-tuned antenna and go with a diplexer for the commercial broadcast receiver then this is a pretty good spot for it.  Though I haven't decided on if I would like how it looks.  I could then decide if the current cowl location gets an antenna that will do some of the ham bands.  Or, I could replace the XM antenna with a sharkfin antenna for other Nissans that has AM/FM/XM on it, and then use the cowl position for other purposes, and possibly put a GMRS antenna on the cab further back.

We'll see what go with.  Been wanting to do something for amateur for a long time, this modern use of communications has given me the impetus to revisit.

 

[WRXN668]

Replying to myself... oh oh oh-oh...

I had cause to stop by an old department for an org where I used to work, among other things they do, they provision and manage the org's business-band radios for probably thousand staff and vehicles.  The head of that department confirmed that commercial FM receive with a diplexer shouldn't be a problem, they've used diplexers for this sort of thing, and commercial FM is so tolerant that a coathanger could do the job.  So it looks like if I were to go with a GMRS radio that only does GMRS and OOB Rx in its immediate vicinity, there would be no problem in doing this.

If I can find a diplexer that makes that split above 108MHz but below 144 that would be absolutely ideal, but even if the split is less optimal I should still be able to monitor the ham bands and OOB around those bands with the ham radio with its own antenna, and use the GRMS antenna for commercial FM.

[nokones]

You might want to look at the Stico Antenna products.

[WRXN668]

I'm attempting to reconfigure the DIY memory locations to set them up for simplex with CTCSS, but oddly despite 31/DIY-1 seemingly having no offset, it's transmitting 5MHz up like it's configured for repeater operations.   Trying to modify the existing offset entry doesn't work if it's already set blank.  I may try again later, delete the memory position entirely and then try recreating it, but apparently I can't write a text name from the radio directly, I'll have to use software to configure that.  I'm not really interested in doing that but I may have to.

It's a bit disappointing that this isn't working from the radio itself, I was hoping that if I found myself spontaneously joining a 4wd convoy that I could set a simple configuration on the radio keypad without requiring a computer or other programming software.

[WRXN668]

4 hours ago, WRXE944 said:

Channel 31 is a DIY Repeater channel for 462.550 with an automatic +5MHz offset.

If you want simplex for 462.550, use Channel 15 and insert the CTCSS there:

[...]

Unfortunately, unless the firmware has been updated by the manufacturer to fix that problem, I think that HT only has DIY channels for Repeaters and not Simplex.

That is rather disappointing.  While I do expect the repeater-scene to be a thing, I was hoping to leave the original memory entries for the default GMRS channels alone entirely, and to use the DIY section for my own purposes since I'm looking to use these for point-to-point communication only.

Hmmm... I wonder if I set offset to negative -5MHz if that would return it to transmitting on the same frequency as it's set for...  I may have to try it today.

[WRXN668]

6 minutes ago, WRXE944 said:

Why are you attempting to put CTCSS on a Simplex channel.

Others have done it, but I am curious what your reasoning is, as maybe this will not be a problem for you after all:

Are you suggesting that: "if I found myself spontaneously joining a 4wd convoy that I could set a simple configuration on the radio keypad without requiring a computer or other programming software" these 4wd convoys require you to transmit with a CTCSS on a simplex channel?

If so, why can't you just add the required CTCSS on Channel 15-22 manually as needed? Even if you could program the DIY Channels as Simplex, how would you know in advance the spontaneous CTCSS that you might encounter?  You would probably have to manually configure it on those DIY simplex channels as well at that time.

The other side of the coin is you purchased a set of inexpensive HTs; probably $80 for the pair.  Why not upgrade to a Wouxun or other brand that has these features you so desire?

When we were driving around, our radios were occasionally receiving just enough to come off squelch, but not where we could hear others speaking.  If I enable CTCSS on both transmit and receive or similar on simplex then our radios won't come off-squelch except when receiving.  And while I cannot remember the name of the feature, I think there was a feature for detecting if someone else was transmitting (even when not on common CTCSS) and blocking the ability to key-up while receiving.

There weren't all that many people on the GMRS channels, but there were enough moments where finding a clear channel was annoying even if it was only due to very intermittent receiving just enough to come off-squelch.  Using channels so that I don't have to listen to others outside of my party would be convenient when used in tandem with not transmitting when others are.

[WRXN668]

1 minute ago, WRXE944 said:

And why can't you do this on Channels 15-30?

Because I'm handing the other radio to a five year old child or to a 75 year old man who are part of my family, and they can scroll with the arrows from Memory 001 "CH.-1" up to Memory 031 "DIY-1" easily enough to switch between conventional transmit and receive and a tone-control-based Tx and Rx while we're out and about without any real need for explanation beyond my saying, "switch from Channel One to DIY One" and we're good to go.

I don't expect my parents, who aren't radio hobbyists and have no interest other than the communications working, to reconfigure a memory channel on the radio.  And I don't expect a five year old to do it either.

[WRUU653]

2 minutes ago, WRXN668 said:

Because I'm handing the other radio to a five year old child or to a 75 year old man who are part of my family, and they can scroll with the arrows from Memory 001 "CH.-1" up to Memory 031 "DIY-1" easily enough to switch between conventional transmit and receive and a tone-control-based Tx and Rx while we're out and about without any real need for explanation beyond my saying, "switch from Channel One to DIY One" and we're good to go.

I don't expect my parents, who aren't radio hobbyists and have no interest other than the communications working, to reconfigure a memory channel on the radio.  And I don't expect a five year old to do it either.

So do it for them. Do you need to change things that often?

Another option you may want to consider is just getting a set of Murs radios. Not that much traffic, license free, you can still set ctcss. In the end it’s still radio and other people can and do use it. Cell phones maybe what you need. 

[Sshannon]

We use CTCSS for GMRS simplex frequently. We do so to keep our conversations separate (not private) from other people on the same channel. Before heading out into the field we make sure that we’re all on the same channel and tone. Our radios are not inexpensive; in fact they are probably the most expensive off-the-shelf GMRS radios available. I fully understand why @WRXN668 would like to save those settings as a custom channel. If his radio doesn’t support that simple capability I can understand why that would cause frustration. 

[WRUU653]

47 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

I fully understand why @WRXN668 would like to save those settings as a custom channel. If his radio doesn’t support that simple capability I can understand why that would cause frustration. 

I can understand that too. My bad. Solution is a better radio then.

I can recommend a Wouxun KG-S88G. All you need to do is select what channel you want to duplicate then go to menu-channel add, select what channel number position you would like to add it to. Then you can add whatever CTCSS you would like to add to it. I tested this out and you can add anywhere in the 400 channels. Set all your radios the same and you are good to go. Just tell your people what channel to use. Radio has busy channel lock out to prevent less savvy users from walking on someone using the frequency. This isn’t a thirty dollar radio but I think it’s worth it. 

[WRXN668]

I've e-mailed to Tidradio's support address, let's see if they route my inquiry properly or not, and if they are responsive.

[jwilkers]

Handheld radios talking to each other will get the range you mentioned. They are operating normally.

The antennas you got are made for amateur radio use and not gmrs. The lack of performance is to be expected in this case.

There is nothing wrong with your radios.

Sent from my SM-A136U using Tapatalk

[WRPL700]

16 hours ago, WRXN668 said:

Because I'm handing the other radio to a five year old child or to a 75 year old man who are part of my family, and they can scroll with the arrows from Memory 001 "CH.-1" up to Memory 031 "DIY-1" easily enough to switch between conventional transmit and receive and a tone-control-based Tx and Rx while we're out and about without any real need for explanation beyond my saying, "switch from Channel One to DIY One" and we're good to go.

I don't expect my parents, who aren't radio hobbyists and have no interest other than the communications working, to reconfigure a memory channel on the radio.  And I don't expect a five year old to do it either.

Check and see if you have a channel 0 "zero".  My Baofeng HT does and I use it just like you mentioned.  I changed the name to Primary and set the freq to 462.550 and set the CTCSS the way I wanted.  Works great.

[jsneezy]

On 6/12/2023 at 7:46 AM, WRXN668 said:

We went four-wheeling this weekend, went up to Sedona.  On the trail itself the Tidradio TD-5R radios were quite helpful, but we were basically line of sight or not much past it.  They were also helpful for the drive up from Phoenix and back down again, we were able to coordinate stops etc.

In-town was another matter.  I'll have to look up the band-plan or whatever the GMRS equivalent is, there must've been some kind of repeater on one of the channels because occasionally there was a morse-string transmitted, and there was a lot of other random chatter, some of which might have been FRS users.  I haven't looked into what it takes to do CTCSS/DCS or equivalent, I will need to do so.  Finding a clear channel was a bit of a pain but if we can use those features it might work better, presuming that others are also using those features.

I'm now thinking about what I want to do for a mobile install on my truck.  In a nutshell I have three services I would need to deal with... receiving commercial broadcast radio (ie, normal FM, possibly ability to receive AM and satellite radio, but the latter is less important to me), communicating on GMRS, and communicating on amateur radio on various bands that Technician allows.  I'm toying with leveraging either the factory commercial radio broadcast receive antenna location and using a diplexer, or leveraging the existing hole in the roof of the truck where the satellite radio receiver sits in order to do either GMRS or amateur, or both depending on what I ultimately go with.

The shorter wavelength of GMRS may work better with that roof location.  This is an Australian D40 Navara antenna:

This is what they went with instead of a cowl-mounted antenna like on the Frontier, where instead that hole is used for the satellite radio receiver.  If I replace the satellite receiver with a GMRS-tuned antenna and go with a diplexer for the commercial broadcast receiver then this is a pretty good spot for it.  Though I haven't decided on if I would like how it looks.  I could then decide if the current cowl location gets an antenna that will do some of the ham bands.  Or, I could replace the XM antenna with a sharkfin antenna for other Nissans that has AM/FM/XM on it, and then use the cowl position for other purposes, and possibly put a GMRS antenna on the cab further back.

We'll see what go with.  Been wanting to do something for amateur for a long time, this modern use of communications has given me the impetus to revisit.

 

What channel were you using? There's a couple of repeaters up on Towers Mtn outside of Crown King with antennas at around 7600 feet above sea level. Those would be at 462.575 and 462.600. I think there's also a repeater in Prescott Valley at 462.675 with the travel tone. Depending on what channel you were on, you may have been hearing any one of these. I know I pick up both of the repeaters on Towers Mtn here in San Tan Valley. 

[WRXN668]

56 minutes ago, jsneezy said:

What channel were you using? There's a couple of repeaters up on Towers Mtn outside of Crown King with antennas at around 7600 feet above sea level. Those would be at 462.575 and 462.600. I think there's also a repeater in Prescott Valley at 462.675 with the travel tone. Depending on what channel you were on, you may have been hearing any one of these. I know I pick up both of the repeaters on Towers Mtn here in San Tan Valley. 

We moved around a bit depending on how busy a given channel was.  I was trying to avoid the especially low-power interstitial channels that are more intended for FRS.

 

Still haven't heard a response from tidradio on removing the channel-offset from the DIY memory positions.  I'm within my amazon return window still, these things might be going back if I don't hear from them.

[WRXN668]

11 minutes ago, WRXE944 said:

Put in a timely request to return/refund them now while the window is open. 

you can always choose to not return them, and believe me, they won’t give you a refund until after they receive them back. 

Amazon.  It shouldn't be a problem.

[jsneezy]

1 hour ago, WRXN668 said:

We moved around a bit depending on how busy a given channel was.  I was trying to avoid the especially low-power interstitial channels that are more intended for FRS.

 

Still haven't heard a response from tidradio on removing the channel-offset from the DIY memory positions.  I'm within my amazon return window still, these things might be going back if I don't hear from them.

It looks like channels 16, 17, 20 and possibly 21 might have been able to pick up the transmission of repeaters if you didn't have any tones set. Looks like a repeater is showing up in Chino Valley as well. I don't know much about that one, it's the first time I've seen it come up on the map on the myGMRS app. I would think the repeaters and possibly some other people out there on the trails is the reason you were hearing more than you expected. You can avoid that by setting tones on the radios that you're using. It won't stop their transmissions, but it will stop your radios from opening squelch for someone that doesn't have the same tones set. I think my Baofeng UV-9Gs have a busy channel lockout as well if you're worried about trampling over someone else.

[WRXN668]

On 6/14/2023 at 9:14 PM, jsneezy said:

It looks like channels 16, 17, 20 and possibly 21 might have been able to pick up the transmission of repeaters if you didn't have any tones set. Looks like a repeater is showing up in Chino Valley as well. I don't know much about that one, it's the first time I've seen it come up on the map on the myGMRS app. I would think the repeaters and possibly some other people out there on the trails is the reason you were hearing more than you expected. You can avoid that by setting tones on the radios that you're using. It won't stop their transmissions, but it will stop your radios from opening squelch for someone that doesn't have the same tones set. I think my Baofeng UV-9Gs have a busy channel lockout as well if you're worried about trampling over someone else.

That's my goal.  Set t-sql to avoid listening to other people.

Tidradio replied to me but I think it was a canned answer from whatever flunky normally initially responds to e-mail.  No acknowledgement of my desire to reconfigure the "DIY" channels to not be repeater-offsets.  I replied again, we'll see if they actually include anyone who can provide relevant feedback.  If not, I guess these will be going back and I'll pursue a different radio.