Midland Waiver Approval

[tweiss3]

I was made aware of this on another forum. https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-23-633A1.pdf

I know the "new channels" discussion got heated, this ought to get some discussion flowing. Lets hope this doesn't become an annoyance with pavement princesses texting and transmitting their location every 10 seconds.

[ULTRA2]

Why didn't I hear anything about this until now?? and this supposed to have been granted in 2021? To me there's something fishy going on here.

[SteveShannon]

Garmin has had something like that since 2008:

https://www.fcc.gov/document/garmin-international-inc-request-waiver-sections-9529f1-95

 

[SteveShannon]

21 minutes ago, ULTRA2 said:

Why didn't I hear anything about this until now?? and this supposed to have been granted in 2021? To me there's something fishy going on here.

It was adopted this year and released July 24, 2023.

[ULTRA2]

Just now, Sshannon said:

Garmin has had something like that since 2008:

https://www.fcc.gov/document/garmin-international-inc-request-waiver-sections-9529f1-95

 

Does Garmin transmit on GMRS?

[tweiss3]

19 minutes ago, ULTRA2 said:

Why didn't I hear anything about this until now?? and this supposed to have been granted in 2021? To me there's something fishy going on here.

No, it was requested in 2021, granted 7/24/2023.

[ULTRA2]

1 minute ago, Sshannon said:

It was adopted this year and released July 24, 2023.

Oh i see.

[SteveShannon]

4 minutes ago, ULTRA2 said:

Does Garmin transmit on GMRS?

Yes. They have a very nice couple of GMRS radios that have full maps and display your buddies on them.  You can send messages as well.

https://www.thegpsstore.com/Garmin-Rino-755T-Handheld-GPS-with-FRS-Radio-and-Topo-Maps-P4959.aspx?gclid=Cj0KCQjwiIOmBhDjARIsAP6YhSVYNu1RFB0RsbBYg5hgBllGY173cGXr7mVRm5gnkIV5O9UDmFi1_CEaAheNEALw_wcB

[tweiss3]

The RHINO uses 5W, while Midland's waiver allows for 50W usage, and to allow for mobile radios with detachable antennas to be used.

[ULTRA2]

My question is why so much power just to send data? I am aware that they're outdoors in a rural area.

[back4more70]

19 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:

The RHINO uses 5W, while Midland's waiver allows for 50W usage, and to allow for mobile radios with detachable antennas to be used.

Instead of a $499 RINO, I will just tell my buddies to stay in the same vehicle as me 

[SteveShannon]

11 minutes ago, ULTRA2 said:

My question is why so much power just to send data? I am aware that they're outdoors in a rural area.

“Section 95.1767(a), to allow the devices sending digital data to operate at 50 watts instead of the current 5 watt limit.13 In its Waiver Amendment, Midland argues that operating at higher powers will better serve the safety needs of and real-life use by off-road users.14 Midland also states that GMRS device users will be better served by data transmissions, as opposed to voice messages, because data transmission are more reliable and more accurate.15 Further, it claims that allowing a 50 watt power limit would enable a data transmission range of roughly 5-6 miles, as opposed to .5-1 miles for 5 watts, which would better serve the needs of users.”
 

[tweiss3]

Just now, Sshannon said:

“Section 95.1767(a), to allow the devices sending digital data to operate at 50 watts instead of the current 5 watt limit.13 In its Waiver Amendment, Midland argues that operating at higher powers will better serve the safety needs of and real-life use by off-road users.14 Midland also states that GMRS device users will be better served by data transmissions, as opposed to voice messages, because data transmission are more reliable and more accurate.15 Further, it claims that allowing a 50 watt power limit would enable a data transmission range of roughly 5-6 miles, as opposed to .5-1 miles for 5 watts, which would better serve the needs of users.”
 

I find this section hilarious, because in this technical memo requesting the waiver, they acknowledge that range is an issue with HTs, however, they continue to advertise their FRS radios with range of "up to 20 miles" and their GMRS HTs with a range of "up to 36 miles".

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, tweiss3 said:

I find this section hilarious, because in this technical memo requesting the waiver, they acknowledge that range is an issue with HTs, however, they continue to advertise their FRS radios with range of "up to 20 miles" and their GMRS HTs with a range of "up to 36 miles".

Would have been even more hilarious if the FCC replies with their "advertised claim" of "up to 20 miles" using FRS radios they see no need to grant the waver. Maybe we would get some more realistic range estimates on the packaging from manufactures. 

[Guest]

Midland is hit with some interesting conditions that will limit the use cases:

"14. Conditions.

5) Digital data transmissions may only be made when two or more users are actively linked together through a smartphone application.

6) Digital data transmission may only occur when the channel is clear. Midland must: A. Ensure that its radios are able to detect when a channel is being used, and must not transmit data while the channel is being used;

7) While Midland must comply with the duty cycle as required by section 95.1787(a)(3) of the Commission’s rules, it may transmit up to 50 ms of data every 10 seconds where it can confirm at the beginning of each session of use that the transmitter is in a rural area as evidenced by the following method, or via an alternate method deemed equivalent by the Bureau: A. The transmitting unit must use real time GPS data to confirm that the device is in a rural county or census tract i.e., with a population density of 100 or fewer persons per square mile."

[Lscott]

13 minutes ago, WRXD372 said:

The transmitting unit must use real time GPS data to confirm that the device is in a rural county or census tract i.e., with a population density of 100 or fewer persons per square mile."

Midland, good luck with that. If they get the data from a cell phone app why even bother with the two way radio?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

Midland, good luck with that. If they get the data from a cell phone app why even bother with the two way radio?

My understand is that they get the data and processing from the cell phone - maybe GPS from the radio?!? - but then the connection is not via cell providers (no coverage) but via their radio ...

[wayoverthere]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

Midland, good luck with that. If they get the data from a cell phone app why even bother with the two way radio?

Don't the Garmin have their own GPS receivers? Or are they dependent on a phone for GPS?

I've seen some conflicting info for some of the recent bluetooth-linked radios (btech gmrs-pro comes to mind) that either wholly depend on a phone/tablet for GPS, or use that as the first method, but will eventually get a fix on their own. To be fair, since the phone has it's own GPS receiver, it's feasible to be able to get a GPS fix even when outside of cell service, so using the phone isn't really a substitute there.

If it's depending on the radio itself, wouldn't Midland need some method of updating the internal maps to ensure they stay accurateon when they're in an allowable area?

[SteveShannon]

34 minutes ago, wayoverthere said:

Don't the Garmin have their own GPS receivers? Or are they dependent on a phone for GPS?

I've seen some conflicting info for some of the recent bluetooth-linked radios (btech gmrs-pro comes to mind) that either wholly depend on a phone/tablet for GPS, or use that as the first method, but will eventually get a fix on their own. To be fair, since the phone has it's own GPS receiver, it's feasible to be able to get a GPS fix even when outside of cell service, so using the phone isn't really a substitute there.

If it's depending on the radio itself, wouldn't Midland need some method of updating the internal maps to ensure they stay accurateon when they're in an allowable area?

Yes, Garmin interfaces their radios directly to the built in GPS in the radio. 

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, wayoverthere said:

If it's depending on the radio itself, wouldn't Midland need some method of updating the internal maps to ensure they stay accurateon when they're in an allowable area?

The cell-phone app could be the gatekeeper for that - after all, population density of the kind they are looking at is unlikely to change "over night". In that case, the radio might just be programmed and "regular" updates could come via the phone (and its data connection).

 

Overall, I see very limited use cases:

Phone and radio present / no cell coverage / position data not easily transmitted over voice / ...

 

My livestyle is unlikely to intersect with those conditions

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Yes, Garmin interfaces their radios directly to the built in GPS in the radio. 

When it comes to companies like that asking for waivers of this kind, I always try to figure out the "actual goal" - what is that company really trying to develop in the long run and how does this permission act as a step towards this ?!?

Midland is trying to "open a door" and push a development for a time when that door is finally open for everybody and they are well positioned

However, they might not be the first company going into that direction. Isn't the T800 Talkabout using similar technology ?!?

[SteveShannon]

12 minutes ago, WRXD372 said:

When it comes to companies like that asking for waivers of this kind, I always try to figure out the "actual goal" - what is that company really trying to develop in the long run and how does this permission act as a step towards this ?!?

Midland is trying to "open a door" and push a development for a time when that door is finally open for everybody and they are well positioned

However, they might not be the first company going into that direction. Isn't the T800 Talkabout using similar technology ?!?

I think that the original Garmin waiver became part of the current rules. So, currently, location data is already allowed to be shared, but the antenna must not be removable and digital data may not pass through a repeater. 
Midland is stretching those boundaries. If they’re successful and nobody has problems, I would expect the waiver terms to become codified. 
I haven’t followed what the Talkabout does. 

[tweiss3]

I have a feeling they are looking at the $1500 Garmin Tread with Group Ride and realize they aren't going to beat Garmin at their own game, but also realize they they currently have a market with deep pockets (jeep guys) that are likely to spend similar money if they get some published advantage over Garmin, even if it's actual implementation isn't seamless. 

[wayoverthere]

16 minutes ago, WRXD372 said:

Overall, I see very limited use cases

 

 

Agreed, seems like pretty limited use case, though it seems more like restrictions they were given, rather than their own (if I read the prior material correctly).

It does seem within where Midland has been going lately, marketing heavily to the off-road/overlanding crowd, though. Given Midland's hardware direction lately, I'm going to speculate wildly that they'll be rebranding the retevis rt99/vero vrn-7500 for this product

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, wayoverthere said:

[...] marketing heavily to the off-road/overlanding crowd, [...]

That explains why I am not getting their advertisement: My 4X4 has sport rims and tires and is used to paved roads