Morse code ID

[JamesBrox]

Hey guys, Say I'm hearing a morse code ID on a simplex channel (GMRS 20). That means it's (there's) an open repeater near by? And no RX/TX tones required if I reach on simplex, right? Thanks

James WRXU693

 

[WRUE951]

13 minutes ago, JamesBrox said:

Hey guys, Say I'm hearing a morse code ID on a simplex channel (GMRS 20). That means it's (there's) an open repeater near by? And no RX/TX tones required if I reach on simplex, right? Thanks

James WRXU693

 

Nope, that means someone is identifying their repeater and most controllers can do this in no PL mode.   Your best bet is look up the repeater here and see if they are using PL's..  However there are a lot of folks that don't register here and thus you find no info on what they are doing..  Try hitting the repeater making sure your radio is set up for a repeater,,, (offsets, etc.) If you hear a squelch tail and or a roger beep, more than likely the repeater is open..  However this doesn't mean the owner is inviting you use it....  Worst scenario, they tell you to get off and that doesn't hurt.     Good Luck.    

[WRUU653]

8 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

If you hear a squelch tail and or a roger beep, more than likely the repeater is open..  However this doesn't mean the owner is inviting you use it....

I agree with the first part of your post but I believe an open repeater means the owner is inviting others to use it. You will know if it’s open or not by it being listed that way. Also why does a squelch tail or roger beep mean it’s an open repeater?

[JamesBrox]

I see. But if an owner of a repeater is sending out an ID on open simplex without PL mode....it's open game, right? He doesn't "own channel 20" just because he has the ability to send out an ID on that specific channel. Correct? Also if by chance the repeater does have an assigned RX/TX tone, why is the ID coming through an open simplex channel? 

[WRUE951]

6 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

I agree with the first part of your post but I believe an open repeater means the owner is inviting others to use it. You will know if it’s open or not by it being listed that way. Also why does a squelch tail or roger beep mean it’s an open repeater?

Here in the MYGMRS world - open repeater most likely means that, but there are a few people here where im at that don't register here and dont use PL tones that we here identity as open..  And they get P'eed off if you use their repeater..  Get that!..   Some of these guys are Landscapers and some other construction type workers and don't know that the hay there are doing with their radios.  

[ULTRA2]

7 minutes ago, JamesBrox said:

I see. But if an owner of a repeater is sending out an ID on open simplex without PL mode....it's open game, right? He doesn't "own channel 20" just because he has the ability to send out an ID on that specific channel. Correct? Also if by chance the repeater does have an assigned RX/TX tone, why is the ID coming through a simplex channel? 

on simplex you don't use any tones that's the reason why you pickup all traffic on that channel even you're on simplex.

[SteveShannon]

2 minutes ago, JamesBrox said:

I see. But if an owner of a repeater is sending out an ID on open simplex without PL mode....it's open game, right? He doesn't "own channel 20" just because he has the ability to send out an ID on that specific channel. Correct? 

The channels from 15-22 receive on the exact same frequencies as repeaters transmit on for channels 23-30 (sometimes referred to as channels 15RP - 22RP). 
Nobody owns the channels but it’s also prohibited to intentionally cause interference for others. 

[WRUU653]

3 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

Get that!..

Sure, I see what you’re saying but why so angry? 

[WRUE951]

9 minutes ago, JamesBrox said:

I see. But if an owner of a repeater is sending out an ID on open simplex without PL mode....it's open game, right? He doesn't "own channel 20" just because he has the ability to send out an ID on that specific channel. Correct? 

Repeater operators do not 'own' the frequency they are using.   And more than likely, in the scenario you present, the repeater is open to use..  The only way you are going to find out is 'use it'.. Just make sure to follow the rules, use your call sign etc..  If the owner comes back and tells you are are not welcome to use his/her repeater than you know your are not invited to use it..  But generally 'most' of the time if you find an open repeater, you can use it..  Just  follow the use rule and you should be good.. 

[WRUU653]

13 minutes ago, JamesBrox said:

I see. But if an owner of a repeater is sending out an ID on open simplex without PL mode....it's open game, right? He doesn't "own channel 20" just because he has the ability to send out an ID on that specific channel. Correct? Also if by chance the repeater does have an assigned RX/TX tone, why is the ID coming through an open simplex channel? 

My understanding is that some repeaters as mentioned here set the repeater ID without tones so when you are on the repeater you won’t hear it and disrupt communication. Of course as @ULTRA2 points out on simplex without tones you hear everything.

[SteveShannon]

16 minutes ago, JamesBrox said:

I see. But if an owner of a repeater is sending out an ID on open simplex without PL mode....it's open game, right? He doesn't "own channel 20" just because he has the ability to send out an ID on that specific channel. Correct? Also if by chance the repeater does have an assigned RX/TX tone, why is the ID coming through an open simplex channel? 

Some repeaters ID without tones, even though they require tones to access them. That doesn’t mean they’re open. 
Some repeaters have tones on the input but not the output. That doesn’t make them open. 
Some repeaters use input tones and output tones. That doesn’t mean they’re open. 
It’s more likely that a repeater that doesn’t require tones to access it is open, but it’s not a rule. 

[ULTRA2]

8 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

  Some of these guys are Landscapers and some other construction type workers and don't know that the hay there are doing with their radios.  

And when you try to tell them that they're using their radios illegally they come back at you with a snark comments. I actually told them I'm going to report them to the FCC and after I said that i never heard them on the channel again. So they actually know what they're doing is illegal

[WRUE951]

1 minute ago, ULTRA2 said:

And when you try to tell them that they're using their radios illegally they come back at you with a snark comments. I actually told them I'm going to report them to the FCC and after I said that i never heard them on the channel again. So they actually know what they're doing is illegal

problem really not solved, they moved ch's for someone else to put up with their illegal use of the radios..  Threating them with the FCC is worth a try, but at the end of the day,   the FCC ain't gonna do anything.   

[JamesBrox]

13 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

Repeater operators do not 'own' the frequency they are using.   And more than likely, in the scenario you present, the repeater is open to use..  The only way you are going to find out is 'use it'.. Just make sure to follow the rules, use your call sign etc..  If the owner comes back and tells you are are not welcome to use his/her repeater than you know your are not invited to use it..  But generally 'most' of the time if you find an open repeater, you can use it..  Just  follow the use rule and you should be good.. 

Got it. But forgive me of my lack of knowing. But how can someone set up a repeater with no PL tones then claim I can't use that channel? If I'm going to spend time and money building a repeater. Then I would think I'd take the extra step and apply PL tones? I don't get it.  

[WRUE951]

Just now, JamesBrox said:

Got it. But forgive me of my lack of knowing. But how can someone set up a repeater with no PL tones then claim I can't use that channel?  

technically speaking,,  they can't deny you use of the ch or frequency as long as you are following FCC rules.  If you are interfering with their use of their repeater, they can report you to the FCC, but the FCC is not going to respond.  And if they don't want you using their repeater they can tell you not to use it,  turn it off of or begin using PL Tones..  Just use the radios with respect to others and follow the rules...  

[OffRoaderX]

18 minutes ago, ULTRA2 said:

And when you try to tell them that they're using their radios illegally they come back at you with a snark comments

If you tell someone that over the air, unless it is a business/LMR frequency that you have paid for, you deserve snark comments.

13 minutes ago, JamesBrox said:

But forgive me of my lack of knowing. But how can someone set up a repeater with no PL tones then claim I can't use that channel?  

Nobody can claim that you cant use a channel.. Well, they can, but you can ignore them or laugh at them when they tell you that.  Then CAN claim that you cant use their repeater, and while you should honor their request, there isn't anything they can do to stop you, and the FCC wont care, just just play nice.

[WRUU653]

9 minutes ago, JamesBrox said:

Got it. But forgive me of my lack of knowing. But how can someone set up a repeater with no PL tones then claim I can't use that channel?  

They can’t but to use their repeater you have to be transmitting with a +5 offset. If you set up a repeater without tones I really don’t think you should expect it not to be used and just listening on the output you couldn’t tell if they are on it or not. 

[JamesBrox]

15 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

They can’t but to use their repeater you have to be transmitting with a +5 offset. If you set up a repeater without tones I really don’t think you should expect it not to be used and just listening on the output you couldn’t tell if they are on it or not. 

Thanks 653, Ok. Bottom line....if I hear an ID on simplex it's an "open repeater" because I wouldn't hear it on simplex if it were a "close repeater" with PL tones assigned? Correct? 

[OffRoaderX]

4 minutes ago, JamesBrox said:

if I hear an ID on simplex it's an "open repeater" because I wouldn't hear it on simplex if it were a "close repeater" with PL tones assigned? Correct? 

No.

[WRUU653]

7 minutes ago, JamesBrox said:

Thanks 653, Ok. Bottom line....if I hear an ID on simplex it's an "open repeater" because I wouldn't hear it on simplex if it were a "close system" with PL tones assigned? Correct? 

No. A repeater can ID on the output (simplex) but still have tones to access it. It’s very common to hear the ID morris code on the simplex channel. You hear everything on simplex but if you have the output tones set on the repeater channel you’ll only hear what’s coming from the repeater. Some people set their radios with only the input for a repeater with the output off so they hear all that’s on the frequency. 
 

Hearing a repeater ID on simplex has nothing to do with being open or closed. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by WRUU653
Additional info

[WRUU653]

18 minutes ago, JamesBrox said:

Thanks 653, Ok. Bottom line....if I hear an ID on simplex it's an "open repeater" because I wouldn't hear it on simplex if it were a "close repeater" with PL tones assigned? Correct? 

Repeaters output on the same frequency as the simplex channels (15-22). Only the input is different. What you hear on simplex is the same as from the repeater. No different. When you are on a repeater channels (23-31) and you have tones set then you won’t hear the simplex but simplex still hears you.  Hope that helps.

[JamesBrox]

10 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

Repeaters output on the same frequency as the simplex channels (15-22). Only the input is different. What you hear on simplex is the same as from the repeater. No different. When you are on a repeater channels (23-31) and you have tones set then you won’t hear the simplex but simplex still hears you.  Hope that helps.

Dang it man....my head hurts lol. Appreciate the insight. 

[OffRoaderX]

1 hour ago, JamesBrox said:

Say I'm hearing a morse code ID on a simplex channel (GMRS 20). That means it's (there's) an open repeater near by? And no RX/TX tones required if I reach on simplex, right? Thanks

There is no need to overcomplicate this like so many here tend to do:

• YES - If you hear a morse code ID on simplex, that likely means there is a repeater within range
• NO - this does not mean the repeater is open and this does not mean that no RX/TX tones are required to use the repeater 
• If it is a repeater you cannot use it on simplex - you will hear it, but you cannot reach/use/transmit on it via a simplex channel

[JamesBrox]

2 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

There is no need to overcomplicate this like so many here tend to do:

• YES - If you hear a morse code ID on simplex, that likely means there is a repeater within range
• NO - this does not mean the repeater is open and this does not mean that no RX/TX tones are required to use the repeater 
• If it is a repeater you cannot use it on simplex - you will hear it, but you cannot reach/use/transmit on it via a simplex channel

I appreciate this as well. 

James WRXU693

[SteveShannon]

@JamesBrox

The fact that you are hearing a transmission doesn’t mean it’s in the open. It may simply mean that you have no receive tone set on your radio. If that’s the case you will hear everything, whether it is sent using PL tones or not.