Simplex on private repeater output w/ tone

[UncleYoda]

I am reprogramming some of my repeater channels that have been for private repeaters to simplex.  But I want to include the output tone for the repeaters where known because people may be listening with the receive tone set.  Would that violate any protocol that would upset the repeater owners?  I'm sure it wouldn't violate any regs but that doesn't mean it won't be objected to, as in they think their members have exclusive use of that frequency/tone pair..

[WRYS709]

What is your purpose: so you can purposely interfere with repeater users use of these repeaters?

[WRUU653]

So output tone would be on 462.xxx so someone listening for repeater output would also hear your Tx? Interesting idea. I can see where that would help prevent someone from walking on your transmission. You wouldn’t be accessing the repeater so I can’t see an issue with that though someone might think you were. Hmm  

[UncleYoda]

@WRYS709 See, that's the issue; it's all based on perception.  Do repeater club members have exclusive use of the frequency and tone?  I kind of expect some of the users to feel that way.  But nobody owns a frequency.  And it ain't interference to talk as long as you don't transmit over someone else.

[OffRoaderX]

39 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Would that violate any protocol that would upset the repeater owners? 

Violate any protocol? NO

Upset the repeater owners? Maybe, but that does not matter.. Just don't intentionally be a dickhead.

[WRYS709]

I still don’t see an answer as to motivation. 

You have 15 channels to choose from to transmit Simplex at 5 watts; 7 of which do not interfere with repeaters. 

But you want to use the 8 channels that are used by repeaters, with tones used by your nearby repeaters on those frequencies and you want to be sure repeater users can hear you?

How many repeaters are within your transmit footprint? How many clear channels are there for you to use instead?

Sounds flakey to me. 

[UncleYoda]

3 hours ago, WRYS709 said:

I still don’t see an answer as to motivation. 

You have 15 channels to choose from to transmit Simplex at 5 watts; 7 of which do not interfere with repeaters. 

But you want to use the 8 channels that are used by repeaters, with tones used by your nearby repeaters on those frequencies and you want to be sure repeater users can hear you?

How many repeaters are within your transmit footprint? How many clear channels are there for you to use instead?

Sounds flakey to me. 

I'm not going to explain my motivation for this or anything here.  It's usually pointless to try to change anyone's mind, especially on the internet.

We have 7 channels at 5W, and 8 channels at 50W for simplex.  I don't monitor 1-7 regularly because it's mostly FRSers.

Repeater use dominates those 8 50W simplex frequencies.  And I have to set a separate tone if I want to block hearing repeater traffic. FCC screwed up by not having repeater output separate from simplex.

I'm not going to get into issues with specific repeaters.  But almost all recently updated or new repeaters are either permission required or members only.  They're turning this public spectrum into something more like business radio.

 

[SteveShannon]

UncleYoda,

You absolutely are within your rights and the regulations to transmit on the 462 MHz main channels. They’re yours as much as they belong to anyone else. And there’s nothing wrong with using the same tones that a repeater uses.  
However, it could be confusing to anyone who hears you. They would have no way to know whether they were hearing the repeater or someone on simplex. 
If they transmit in simplex on 462 the repeater would not relay the signal so you might not hear them. Similarly your transmissions will be limited in range. Some people listening to the repeater might not hear you at all which could lead to them inadvertently interfering with your transmissions. 
It’s not something I would do, but you’re within your rights. 

[Raybestos]

5 hours ago, WRYS709 said:

What is your purpose: so you can purposely interfere with repeater users use of these repeaters?

There are lots of reasons for encoding the repeater output tone on the output/simplex channel that in no way involve purposely interfering with anyone.

I am a member of an informal repeater group that meets at different restaurants in about a 40 mile radius of the repeater one day, each month.  Oftentimes, these restaurants will be well outside of the repeater's coverage area.  As such, we usually agree to monitor the output of our repeater to help newcomers or old members locate where we are for that day.  Several of us, to include myself, make sure we encode the repeater's tone on its output/simplex channel so that someone with the tone set in the decoder can hear us.

Likewise, when two operators are mobile, portable, or even on base; many miles from the repeater, if they are close enough to each other, they  can communicate more easily on simplex than through the repeater.  Encoding the repeater output tone on the simplex channel the repeater uses facilitates simplex and allows monitoring the repeater when cresting hills or otherwise in receiving range of the repeater.

If someone is not a member of a paid repeater group, encoding that repeater's tone while transmitting simplex can allow for useful communication to a paid user if close to the paid user.  For instance, the paid user is lost or needs mechanical assistance.  The paid user might need a connector, cable, or something else and if the non-member has something helpful to share and is close enough, they can assist the paid user without violating the sanctity of the members-only repeater.

 

Not everything is sinister.

[WRYS709]

6 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

I'm not going to explain my motivation for this or anything here.  It's usually pointless to try to change anyone's mind, especially on the internet.

Nothing to get insulted about; I was only curious as to your purpose before giving my aid and comfort.

Now that you have expressed your intentions, I have no problem doing that:

It seems to me, after reviewing your geography, that you can easily use 462.575 for your simplex communications at up to 50 watts.

[UncleYoda]

Yea, I did decide a while back to use .575 simplex for my local area base station.  (The nearest repeater listed for that never went live AFAIK and probably would've been out of range.  I do receive one up on a mountain 60mi away.)  And to try to use open repeaters if any are available when mobile.  But this was about what to do with the other channels/frequencies to maybe make some use of them.  So, I've got it worked out for now (but things do keep changing).

[tweiss3]

13 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

I'm not going to get into issues with specific repeaters.  But almost all recently updated or new repeaters are either permission required or members only.  They're turning this public spectrum into something more like business radio.

 

Personally, its not that I don't want others to use my repeater, but I do want to know who is using it. It also helps if I have to make a change, that I have a list of people to notify.

[gortex2]

14 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

I'm not going to get into issues with specific repeaters.  But almost all recently updated or new repeaters are either permission required or members only.  They're turning this public spectrum into something more like business radio.

You miss understand public spectrum. Spectrum is the frequency and airwaves. Equipment I purchase, install, maintain is my personal equipment. If someone requires membership its up to them. Personally my repeaters are closed. I see no need to pay for power, tower fees and other associated fees for others to use it. GMRS is not ham radio. Sadly many feel if they buy a $35 license they are entitled to use any repeater they want. 

[UncleYoda]

1 hour ago, tweiss3 said:

Personally, its not that I don't want others to use my repeater, but I do want to know who is using it. It also helps if I have to make a change, that I have a list of people to notify.

And your repeater users are tying up the same (output) frequency that is for simplex use, not to mention possible use by an open repeater.  [But it's FCC's fault for creating that mess.]  The only really relevant point here is you having a repeater doesn't give you control over stations that are not using your repeater.

[tweiss3]

Just now, UncleYoda said:

And your repeater users are tying up the same (output) frequency that is for simplex use, not to mention possible use by an open repeater.  [But it's FCC's fault for creating that mess.]  The only really relevant point here is you having a repeater doesn't give you control over stations that are not using your repeater.

This is true, but considering 95% of my family's traffic is actually simplex, not using the repeater, we use the corresponding output most of the time. The public use of my repeater is pretty minimal as well. Overall, I don't see it as a problem. It's EVERYONE's responsibility to minimize interference with other users as much as possible. Unless you are at a large amusement park, its pretty easy to find an unused frequency.