Will HTs connect to each other if out of range of mobile repeater?

[GMRSWLV]

I'm hoping to verify my understanding of an issue that I have had a hard time tracking down an answer to. Our family uses gmrs HTs to communicate while in the mountains together, often while skiing. We have generally had good luck staying in range of each other, but I have thought from time to time of setting up a retevis (or the new midland) repeater down in my car in the parking lot at the base of the mountain with a mobile antenna, with the idea that it might increase coverage for the group up on the mountain that from time to time might have better line of site to the base of the mountain than to each other (and it would be a good excuse to buy more gear/fiddle around a bit). 

However, I think that if I switched our HTs to be on this new mobile repeater channel, the HTs would not communicate with each other locally while out of range of the repeater? In other words, an HT would transmit to the repeater and the other HTs in our group that aren't able to connect to the repeater would not receive that local transmission? Have I got that right? 

 

 

[BoxCar]

All the radios have to be on the same channel to reach each other. To monitor and use both a repeater and simplex channels the radio must be capable of dual channel operations. In other words, both an A and B channel.

[Socalgmrs]

No.  You would have to monitor 2 channels.  One in repeater and one on simplex.  If unit 1 could not reach any one the repeater then they would have to switch over to simplex and reach out to any one in the group that could here them and say unit 1 on simplex Chanel 5 can any one in the smith family hear me I can’t reach the repeater…. (For example). I’d also put tones on the simplex so you don’t here all the other traffic in the area. 

[WRUU653]

Some radios also have what is known as “talk around”, this basically lets you transmit on the same channel in simplex (around the repeater) to see if you can reach the other party without going through the repeater. This can be helpful because it maintains the tones you have set for the repeater but uses simplex. Also you don’t need to be monitoring simplex separately on the B channel while using A or lets say you are using a radio that isn’t dual receive like the KG-S88G for instance, you can hit a side button to activate the “talk around” feature and see if you can reach the other party on simplex even though they are still set to receive from the repeater. It’s a pretty common feature these days and perfect for the scenario you described. 

[BoxCar]

44 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

Some radios also have what is known as “talk around”, this basically lets you transmit on the same channel in simplex (around the repeater) to see if you can reach the other party without going through the repeater. This can be helpful because it maintains the tones you have set for the repeater but uses simplex.

Talk around is found primarily in digital radios which are not approved under Part 95(E).

[TrikeRadio]

The Tidradio TD-H3 has duel channel and separate PTT buttons for the A and B channels, so you could easily transmit on one (as repeater) of the other (set as a simplex) ---but it is also not rated for water resistance so.. maybe not a good option for skiing (or playing with in the bathtub).

 

[WRUU653]

38 minutes ago, BoxCar said:

Talk around is found primarily in digital radios which are not approved under Part 95(E).

The KG-935G plus, the KG-S88G and the KG-Q10G all have talk around just to name a few. All are Part 95(E) approved... so yeah no, you are incorrect on this matter. 

[WRUU653]

32 minutes ago, TrikeRadio said:

The Tidradio TD-H3 has duel channel and separate PTT buttons for the A and B channels, so you could easily transmit on one (as repeater) of the other (set as a simplex) ---but it is also not rated for water resistance so.. maybe not a good option for skiing (or playing with in the bathtub).

 

I suspect that transmitting on A to the repeater while listening to B on simplex could create issues with desensning and possibly feed back if you have dual receive on. I haven't tried it myself. 

[TrikeRadio]

27 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

I suspect that transmitting on A to the repeater while listening to B on simplex could create issues with desensning and possibly feed back if you have dual receive on. I haven't tried it myself. 

I'm pretty sure it shuts off receive on both A and B when you transmit on either.

[LeoG]

1 hour ago, WRUU653 said:

I suspect that transmitting on A to the repeater while listening to B on simplex could create issues with desensning and possibly feed back if you have dual receive on. I haven't tried it myself. 

Works fine.  I do it all the time.

 

The only thing is you need to have the Tx AND Rx CTCSS set for the reverse frequencies to work with another radio.  At least mine does.

[WRUU653]

10 minutes ago, LeoG said:

Works fine.  I do it all the time.

To clarify while I said dual receive, I actually meant simultaneously receive. Which I don't have turned on on any of my radios anymore because I found it annoying and confusing when two channels came in at once. 

1 hour ago, TrikeRadio said:

I'm pretty sure it shuts off receive on both A and B when you transmit on either.

That would certainly make sense. 

[LeoG]

I love the dual receive.  I'd actually like to have a 4 band receive.  I know they exist, but I have enough radios.

 

Did I say that out loud?

[dosw]

I have a similar issue when skiing. But I don't think a car-based repeater would solve it.

Several resorts I ski at have distinct "sides", with a mountain ridge between them:

 

• Alta Ski Area: The Albion/Sugarloaf side is distinct from the Collins/Wildcat side. There are distinct parking lots, and a bit of a mountain between them.
• Snowbird Resort: The Mineral Basin side is behind the Cirque, and there's no way a radio would carry from mineral basin to the parking.
• Solitude: The Summit lift area, and the back (Honeycomb Canyon) are behind mountains, and can't be reached from the parking lot.
• Deer Valley: There is skiing near the parking area, but there are three other distinct sides with mountains between them: Silver lodge area, Mayflower, and one other i don't remember the name of offhand.
• Snowbasin: The Strawberry side is beyond radio range from the main parking area.
• Brighton: The mid-section off of the Snake Creek lift is hidden from the parking.

But in those cases, we tend to be pretty good at keeping the group together within that topographical "side."

Anyway, the A/B approach is good. There are two ways I see to do it:

1. A is on simplex 18 (for example). B is on repeater 20 (for example). Set the radio to dual-watch. Make sure the operators mention which side they're on when they call (A or B ) just to keep it easy.
2. A is on simplex 18 (for example). B is on repeater 18, same tones. Set radio to dual watch. Make sure operators mention which side they're on when they call.

2 is more seamless, but also a little less clear to listeners whether they're hearing the repeater or simplex.

[WRYZ926]

21 minutes ago, LeoG said:

I love the dual receive.  I'd actually like to have a 4 band receive.  I know they exist, but I have enough radios.

 

Did I say that out loud?

You have taken the first step on the road to recovery 

GMRS repeaters listen on 467MHz and transmit on 462MHz. Radios are opposite, they transmit on 467MHz and receive on 462MHZ.

So yes you can hear someone using simplex on 462MHZ when your radio is on a repeater channel. But you will not be able to talk to the other radio since you are transmitting on 467MHz when on a repeater channel.

This is where radios with dual VFO's are nice. You can set the main (A or B ) for repeater use and still monitor a simplex channel on the other VFO (B).

Every HT (except the Icom IC-T10) are dual watch as are all of my mobile/base radios. I always have one side on the local repeater and monitor other repeaters or simplex frequencies/channels on the other side.

I have to agree that having a dual watch radio with dual PTT buttons is a nice feature. My Wouxun KG-Q10H (and the KG-Q10G) are that way.

[cfa]

Program a simplex channel with the same tones as the output of your repeater. Call it "talk around" or a "direct" channel.   

Example. Your on 462.700/467.700 repeater pair with PL 77 in and out tones. Your group drives out of range the repeater, or it dies. You notice so you flip over to your "talk around" channel and simplex on 462.700 with a PL 77 tone and tell your friends to all go direct. Since everyone is already listening for 462.700/pl77 for the repeater they are all going to hear your message to go direct or to another simplex channel.