Foxhunt on GMRS

[WSFL951]

Is it legal to conduct a foxhunt using GMRS?

[TrikeRadio]

I don't know why it wouldn't be perfectly legal. all GMRS and FRS communication is considered "in the public" ... just as it is perfectly legal to photograph anyone in a public place where this is "no expectation of privacy"

[SteveShannon]

No, the Fox is sending a one way transmission, which is only allowed for certain reasons. Foxhunting isn’t one of them. Here is the list of approved one-way communications:

b) One-way communications. The operator of a GMRS station may use that station to transmit one-way communications:

(1) To call for help or transmit other emergency communications;

(2) To provide warnings of hazardous road conditions to travelers; or,

(3) To make brief test transmissions.

[TrikeRadio]

2 hours ago, WSFL951 said:

Is it legal to conduct a foxhunt using GMRS?

For what purpose? To identify the source of an interfering station maybe?

[WSFL951]

No, this is just for my friend and me to test our equipment and locate my hidden transmitter!

[TrikeRadio]

18 minutes ago, WSFL951 said:

No, this is just for my friend and me to test our equipment and locate my hidden transmitter!

Should not be a problem as long as you are not causing issues for others on the frequency you choose. Sounds like fun actually. 

[H8SPVMT]

We had meters on CB's to express signal strengths each time the Fox howled that helped the attentive with clues.  Don't have that on my Midland, do you?

 

[WRYZ926]

Interesting question for sure. We have done fox hunts on 2m but never even thought about using any other band.

[WSFL951]

On 11/30/2024 at 9:22 AM, WRYZ926 said:

Interesting question for sure. We have done fox hunts on 2m but never even thought about using any other band.

Other people without GMRS licenses can participate in fox hunting using FRS radios.

[Davichko5650]

On 11/29/2024 at 7:17 PM, SteveShannon said:

No, the Fox is sending a one way transmission, which is only allowed for certain reasons. Foxhunting isn’t one of them. Here is the list of approved one-way communications:

 

b) One-way communications. The operator of a GMRS station may use that station to transmit one-way communications:

(1) To call for help or transmit other emergency communications;

(2) To provide warnings of hazardous road conditions to travelers; or,

(3) To make brief test transmissions.

This.  Now in the amateur bands, the fox would be operating as a beacon subject to 97.203 (g).

Used to "foxhunt" as a professional, never felt the desire to do it for free LOL.

[WSFL951]

ChatGPT says it is ok to do it.

[SteveShannon]

7 minutes ago, WSFL951 said:

ChatGPT says it is ok to do it.

The second thing with AI answers is that they are drawn from the “collective wisdom of the internet.”  You might not have asked correctly. 
The first is that AI has no authority to answer the question. But go ahead and trust it. 
Here’s an example:

[WSFL951]

5 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

The second thing with AI answers is that they are drawn from the “collective wisdom of the internet.”  You might not have asked correctly. 
The first is that AI has no authority to answer the question. But go ahead and trust it. 
Here’s an example:

Gemini says too! Aaaaa!

Edited December 3 by WSFL951

[Davichko5650]

On 11/29/2024 at 7:17 PM, SteveShannon said:

No, the Fox is sending a one way transmission, which is only allowed for certain reasons. Foxhunting isn’t one of them. Here is the list of approved one-way communications:

 

b) One-way communications. The operator of a GMRS station may use that station to transmit one-way communications:

(1) To call for help or transmit other emergency communications;

(2) To provide warnings of hazardous road conditions to travelers; or,

(3) To make brief test transmissions.

There is also this:

95.347

Operation of Personal Radio Services stations under automatic control is prohibited, unless otherwise allowed for a particular Personal Radio Service by rules in the subpart governing that specific service.

The Fox would be automatically periodically transmitting its traffic, normally a CWID Callsign or other brief message. Unless the operator was actually there keying the transmitter, they'd be running afoul of this regulation.  No doubt massive fines will ensue (sacasm mode engaged)

[WSFL951]

9 minutes ago, Davichko5650 said:

There is also this:

95.347

Operation of Personal Radio Services stations under automatic control is prohibited, unless otherwise allowed for a particular Personal Radio Service by rules in the subpart governing that specific service.

The Fox would be automatically periodically transmitting its traffic, normally a CWID Callsign or other brief message. Unless the operator was actually there keying the transmitter, they'd be running afoul of this regulation.  No doubt massive fines will ensue (sacasm mode engaged)

 

[Davichko5650]

25 minutes ago, WSFL951 said:

 

Only the Fox themselves would need to be licensed as the hunters would not be transmitting.  Many of the Radio Orienteering participants are non-licensed people.  The Fox would need to manually transmit the calls, be sure they wear that camo to hide as they'll be much larger than the normal "ammo Can" style Fox. But again, I don't see what one way transmission they could emit in concordance with the regs. Hardly a brief test transmission.

Again, no real dog in this fight as I don't fox hunt anymore since the taxpayers stopped paying me to do so. Same as with running...

[WSDE760]

Pardon my newb opinion but couldn't a foxhunt be conducted simply using a mobile repeater temporarily parked at an undisclosed location? 

Tones exclusive to the foxhunt, set so as to not interfere with any other repeater, could be announced at the beginning of the hunt.
The hunters communicating via the repeater would provide a legal two-way signal to pursue.

How is this any different than any other group using a mobile repeater to coordinate shared recreational activity?

[SteveShannon]

4 minutes ago, WSDE760 said:

Pardon my newb opinion but couldn't a foxhunt be conducted simply using a mobile repeater temporarily parked at an undisclosed location? 

Tones exclusive to the foxhunt, set so as to not interfere with any other repeater, could be announced at the beginning of the hunt.
The hunters communicating via the repeater would provide a legal two-way signal to pursue.

How is this any different than any other group using a mobile repeater to coordinate shared recreational activity?

I can’t find fault with that idea. 

[Davichko5650]

3 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

I can’t find fault with that idea. 

Nor I. The repeater could be the fox. Or one of the users, with the hunters DF'ing the input.  Again relies on the Fox not using automatic control. And if a family group under one licensee's call, the repeater would not need to ID itself.

Still, not my bag, but does seem feasible.

[WSFL951]

2 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

I can’t find fault with that idea. 

I guess I can use CTCSS or DCS.

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, Davichko5650 said:

Nor I. The repeater could be the fox. Or one of the users, with the hunters DF'ing the input.  Again relies on the Fox not using automatic control. And if a family group, the repeater would not need to ID itself.

Still, not my bag, but does seem feasible.

And repeaters are allowed to use automatic control so that’s still not an issue. (95.1747)

[Davichko5650]

3 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

And repeaters are allowed to use automatic control so that’s still not an issue. (95.1747)

So using the repeater as Fox would work, people be DF'ing the hunters on the output, the squelch tails or the CW or Voice ID's.

[WSFL951]

1 minute ago, SteveShannon said:

And repeaters are allowed to use automatic control so that’s still not an issue. (95.1747)

But now no one will know what radio you are using.

if you are using the Baofeng IDY repeater that will be the same.

So what will the difference be without using a repeater?

who knows the FCC HAS the tool to find out what radio you are using.

[WSDE760]

13 minutes ago, WSFL951 said:

So what will the difference be without using a repeater?

Could you play Marco Polo on simplex with tones as long as both the fox and the hunters properly ID?

"Marco + hunter call sign" answered by "Polo + fox call sign" is a two-way communication and is is not secret code.

Edited December 3 by WSDE760
wording

[SteveShannon]

3 minutes ago, WSFL951 said:

But now no one will know what radio you are using.

if you are using the Baofeng IDY repeater that will be the same.

So what will the difference be without using a repeater?

who knows the FCC HAS the tool to find out what radio you are using.

The difference is that a repeater is used for two way communications and a repeater is allowed to operate under automatic control.
A beacon (the fox) typically used in a foxhunt does one way communications, which I’ve already explained is prohibited in GMRS, and would be operating under automatic control which is prohibited except for repeaters. 

95.1747 GMRS automatic control.

Notwithstanding the prohibition in § 95.347, GMRS repeater stations may be operated by automatic control.

In addition depending on the beacon it might be transmitting continuously which is prohibited. 
 

Simply put, a fox such as is typically used for amateur radio foxhunts would violate the regulations. 

A hidden repeater, depending on how its used, might be just fine. 
Whether the FCC can detect a regulation violation has nothing to do with whether something is a violation. 
 

My question is why are you trying to make GMRS more like ham radio?