New to GMRS questions and programming radio for a repeater

[Guest learning_as_i_go]

Brand new to GMRS. I purchased two Baefeng UV-5G Plus radios on Black Friday to use while camping. I was not aware getting the radio programmed and operational was so involved so I appreciate your patience and help with these.

I've learned of these "repeaters" that seem to be similar in concept to a cell tower. If I'm communicating with someone miles away but within range of a repeater it seems better for both of us to tune to that repeater rather than 1-to-1 on another frequency. If there are 35 miles between us and a repeater in between then the signal would be stronger and clearer using the repeater. If we were to go outside the range of that repeater we'd have to find the next available closest repeater. The repeater will only serve those within it's radius - it will not repeat communication between two users hundreds of miles apart - say for example Maine and PA. Do I have that right?

I've been viewing YouTube videos on GMRS notably https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufB9FXsLpKY recommended in https://forums.mygmrs.com/topic/6921-programming-baofeng-uv-5g-plus-repeater-help/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7zEixMDTTI. I was able to download a list of repeaters in my area from radioreference.com and copy them to my radio. There is one large repeater station near me (https://mygmrs.com/repeater/6129) that does not appear in the list I downloaded. I'm fine adding it manually but I'm not sure what the tone mode is or the Tone Squelch if applicable. All other repeaters I see list an input tone and an output tone, but this repeater only lists an input tone. Can you help with the proper settings to type into Chirp Next?

Thank you everyone for your help - still learning about these radio terms and how they apply.

[Guest learning_as_i_go]

I also see now the term "simplex" meaning radio-to-radio and thus not involving a repeater. Let me rephrase some of my above statement:

Quote

If I'm communicating with someone miles away but within range of a repeater it seems better for both of us to tune to that repeater rather than a simplex transmission on another frequency. If there are 35 miles between us and a repeater in between then the signal would be stronger and clearer using the repeater. If we were to go outside the range of that repeater we'd have to find the next available closest repeater or use simplex transmission on a non-repeater frequency.

 

[wayoverthere]

1 hour ago, Guest learning_as_i_go said:

Brand new to GMRS. I purchased two Baefeng UV-5G Plus radios on Black Friday to use while camping. I was not aware getting the radio programmed and operational was so involved so I appreciate your patience and help with these.

I've learned of these "repeaters" that seem to be similar in concept to a cell tower. If I'm communicating with someone miles away but within range of a repeater it seems better for both of us to tune to that repeater rather than 1-to-1 on another frequency. If there are 35 miles between us and a repeater in between then the signal would be stronger and clearer using the repeater. If we were to go outside the range of that repeater we'd have to find the next available closest repeater. The repeater will only serve those within it's radius - it will not repeat communication between two users hundreds of miles apart - say for example Maine and PA. Do I have that right?

I've been viewing YouTube videos on GMRS notably https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufB9FXsLpKY recommended in https://forums.mygmrs.com/topic/6921-programming-baofeng-uv-5g-plus-repeater-help/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7zEixMDTTI. I was able to download a list of repeaters in my area from radioreference.com and copy them to my radio. There is one large repeater station near me (https://mygmrs.com/repeater/6129) that does not appear in the list I downloaded. I'm fine adding it manually but I'm not sure what the tone mode is or the Tone Squelch if applicable. All other repeaters I see list an input tone and an output tone, but this repeater only lists an input tone. Can you help with the proper settings to type into Chirp Next?

Thank you everyone for your help - still learning about these radio terms and how they apply.

You're on the right track with repeaters, for the most part. With linking declared "not allowed", you and the other station would both need to be in range of the same repeater. Previously, it was allowed to connect repeaters to each other across the internet; if you were in Maine in range of a repeater that was connected to another repeater in PA, you could talk to someone in range of the PA repeater and vice versa.

On your tones, you'll want to set the tone mode for that repeater to 'tone' rather than 'tone sql'. That way you send the tone on transmit, but the radio isn't expecting to receive one back (opening the squelch).

Think of tones as a filter.  Tone squelch only lets through signals with the right tone, be that hearing your buddy across the field, or that other station over the hill via the repeater. If the sender doesn't use the tone the receiving radio is expecting, it doesn't get past the filter.

In the same vein, even for the reoeaters that do have an output tone, you can choose to run without a receive tone (known as "carrier squelch). You'll hear all signals on the frequency above whatever threshold your squelch is set to, since you effectively have no filter in place. If there's no other traffic on that frequency, no issue, but it can be nice to sell which signals are simplex traffic and which are from the repeater, since the repeater output frequencies are also simplex channel frequencies.

 

(Sorry that turned out longer than intended, hope it helps.)

[Guest learning_as_i_go]

1 hour ago, wayoverthere said:

You're on the right track with repeaters, for the most part. With linking declared "not allowed", you and the other station would both need to be in range of the same repeater. Previously, it was allowed to connect repeaters to each other across the internet; if you were in Maine in range of a repeater that was connected to another repeater in PA, you could talk to someone in range of the PA repeater and vice versa.

On your tones, you'll want to set the tone mode for that repeater to 'tone' rather than 'tone sql'. That way you send the tone on transmit, but the radio isn't expecting to receive one back (opening the squelch).

Think of tones as a filter.  Tone squelch only lets through signals with the right tone, be that hearing your buddy across the field, or that other station over the hill via the repeater. If the sender doesn't use the tone the receiving radio is expecting, it doesn't get past the filter.

In the same vein, even for the reoeaters that do have an output tone, you can choose to run without a receive tone (known as "carrier squelch). You'll hear all signals on the frequency above whatever threshold your squelch is set to, since you effectively have no filter in place. If there's no other traffic on that frequency, no issue, but it can be nice to sell which signals are simplex traffic and which are from the repeater, since the repeater output frequencies are also simplex channel frequencies.

 

(Sorry that turned out longer than intended, hope it helps.)

Anything is appreciated - type as much as you want. I reconfigured the setting for that 1 repeater as Tone Mode of "Tone" and set the tone frequency to the input tone they defined. I have several other repeaters in my area (central Ohio) that were already configured and downloaded from repeaterbook as TSQL so I was planning on leaving those as-is.

Bummer to know that about the linking but it's fine. These radios are just for me and my gf as a backup to cell or if we go camping/hiking and veer separately and just don't want to deal with cell phone bs. I've a lot to learn and explore.

[Guest learning_as_i_go]

Still having an issue...I believe my radio is programmed with channel info for a local repeater but I'm not hearing anything on the 2nd radio when transmitting from the 1st radio. I downloaded channel settings from repeaterbook for https://mygmrs.com/repeater/8994 and uploaded to my radio. When I am on that channel I see the circle C indicating CTCSS is enabled, and a plus for duplex. I have two radios and when I transmit on one and just say "test test 123" I do not hear it on the 2nd radio with the volume all the way up. Squelch is down to 0. Is it not enough for the channel to be programmed with the above info from the repeater site, or do I have to manually configure the 5 MHZ offset for receiving as well? I thought this was included in the CHIRP programming.

[SteveShannon]

6 minutes ago, Guest learning_as_i_go said:

Still having an issue...I believe my radio is programmed with channel info for a local repeater but I'm not hearing anything on the 2nd radio when transmitting from the 1st radio. I downloaded channel settings from repeaterbook for https://mygmrs.com/repeater/8994 and uploaded to my radio. When I am on that channel I see the circle C indicating CTCSS is enabled, and a plus for duplex. I have two radios and when I transmit on one and just say "test test 123" I do not hear it on the 2nd radio with the volume all the way up. Squelch is down to 0. Is it not enough for the channel to be programmed with the above info from the repeater site, or do I have to manually configure the 5 MHZ offset for receiving as well? I thought this was included in the CHIRP programming.

Your tuning is probably fine.  Using two radios to talk to each other in proximity to each other often results in a condition known as desense, which is where the receiver of one radio goes deaf to a weaker signal when placed too near a transmitting radio. Its like standing next to a person who is shouting and trying to hear their words echo while they’re still shouting.  Take the receiving radio a block away and try again.

[Guest learning_as_i_go]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

Your tuning is probably fine.  Using two radios to talk to each other in proximity to each other often results in a condition known as desense, which is where the receiver of one radio goes deaf to a weaker signal when placed too near a transmitting radio. Its like standing next to a person who is shouting and trying to hear their words echo while they’re still shouting.  Take the receiving radio a block away and try again.

That would make sense, but I tried programming the channels manually using the instructions from WSEN940 and I was able to successfully hear myself on both radios.

 I set the Tx/Rx and input tone from https://mygmrs.com/repeater/8759. I deleted channel 42, set frequency to 462.625, set input tone of 100 Hz, stored in ch 42 and the radio confirmed "receive frequency", then change to 467.625, and stored that in ch 42 and again a confirmation of "transmit frequency".  When doing this manually I do not see the Circle C indicating CTCSS or the duplex symbol if that makes any difference.

[wayoverthere]

1 hour ago, Guest learning_as_i_go said:

That would make sense, but I tried programming the channels manually using the instructions from WSEN940 and I was able to successfully hear myself on both

 I set the Tx/Rx and input tone from https://mygmrs.com/repeater/8759. I deleted channel 42, set frequency to 462.625, set input tone of 100 Hz, stored in ch 42 and the radio confirmed "receive frequency", then change to 467.625, and stored that in ch 42 and again a confirmation of "transmit frequency".  When doing this manually I do not see the Circle C indicating CTCSS or the duplex symbol if that makes any difference.

I'm a little curious what the end result is of the manual programming in the big picture.  It looks like the tone is only being applied on the receive side, though maybe the firmware carries it over to transmit by default.

It it wasn't an issue of desense, it has me thinking the manual programming only set a transmit tone (between now working and the missing "c"), and the repeater isnt actually using an output tone as listed.

[SteveShannon]

5 hours ago, Guest learning_as_i_go said:

That would make sense, but I tried programming the channels manually using the instructions from WSEN940 and I was able to successfully hear myself on both radios.

 I set the Tx/Rx and input tone from https://mygmrs.com/repeater/8759. I deleted channel 42, set frequency to 462.625, set input tone of 100 Hz, stored in ch 42 and the radio confirmed "receive frequency", then change to 467.625, and stored that in ch 42 and again a confirmation of "transmit frequency".  When doing this manually I do not see the Circle C indicating CTCSS or the duplex symbol if that makes any difference.

It might be helpful if we could see all of that screen so we could see the rest of the parameters you programmed.  I agree that it doesn't seem that desense is your problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i

[Guest learning_as_i_go]

On 12/13/2024 at 4:50 PM, SteveShannon said:

It might be helpful if we could see all of that screen so we could see the rest of the parameters you programmed.  I agree that it doesn't seem that desense is your problem.

I'm still having issues. When at home we can transmit and receive using simplex on 467.625 in frequency mode. Here's everything I have programmed on both radios (channel 42 in the picture was moved up to 10 in the screenshot):

(I assume DTMF has no relevance for my issue but here you go)

I tried all of the channels 1 - 6 that I downloaded from repeaterbook and I renamed them so I could distinguish the city and call sign. According to the map I should be well within their radiuses especially Amanda and Johnstown which have huge coverage areas. Here is what the screen looks like for each channel and #42 (again - #10 in the above config) that I programmed manually:

 

 

 

 

 

 

When in our house I can tx/rx using channel 10. I see the tx freq change from 462.625 to 467.625 and on the other radio I see it come in on rx freq 467.625. Gave my gf 1 radio and I steadily drove away and did check-ins along the way. We're in a semi-rural area so I'm not sure what the expectation is but we got about 1/2 a mile apart and it started to get choppy, then as I got farther neither of us saw the rx light and obviously couldn't hear either tx or talk. Communicated via text and tried switching to the other channels, which I would expect with the repeater strength to have a better chance, but none of them worked.

On 12/13/2024 at 1:35 PM, wayoverthere said:

I'm a little curious what the end result is of the manual programming in the big picture.  It looks like the tone is only being applied on the receive side, though maybe the firmware carries it over to transmit by default.

It it wasn't an issue of desense, it has me thinking the manual programming only set a transmit tone (between now working and the missing "c"), and the repeater isnt actually using an output tone as listed.

Conducted a test right near each other and steadily driving apart and posted results above. Appreciate your help. Let me know if you need any additional pictures or tests.

[SteveShannon]

Okay, you should not be transmitting on 462.625 to a repeater. And you should not be receiving on 467.625 unless your radio is the repeater. 
You shouldn’t have to use VFO channels if you’re using a GMRS radio. Just change to one of the repeater channels, add the right transmit tone, clear the receiver tone, and use it. The repeater channels might be numbered 23-30. 
Simplex means that you transmit and receive on exactly the same frequency.

The only time you should transmit on one frequency and listen on another is when you’re using a repeater.

You always transmit at 467.xxx to the repeater. 
You always receive from the repeater on 462.xxx.

 

[Guest learning_as_i_go]

14 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

Okay, you should not be transmitting on 462.625 to a repeater. And you should not be receiving on 467.625 unless your radio is the repeater. 
You shouldn’t have to use VFO channels if you’re using a GMRS radio. Just change to one of the repeater channels, add the right transmit tone, clear the receiver tone, and use it. The repeater channels might be numbered 23-30. 
Simplex means that you transmit and receive on exactly the same frequency.

The only time you should transmit on one frequency and listen on another is when you’re using a repeater.

You always transmit at 467.xxx to the repeater. 
You always receive from the repeater on 462.xxx.

The channels I have programmed 1-6 were downloaded from repeaterbook - I did not manually configure them. In my screenshot it shows the "Offset/TX freq" for channels 1-6, and 10 are +5 so using channel 1 as an example the "Frequency" value is set to 462.625 and the "Offset/TX freq" is set to 5, so I would expect the TX freq to be 467.625.

I'm not sure what you mean by "add the right transmit tone, clear the receiver tone". I do see that two of the channel configurations I downloaded from repeaterbook have a "Tone" value as opposed to the others. Again these are configurations from repeaterbook, they are not values I entered manually although I did change the "Name" values. Are you inferring that the configurations from repeaterbook are incorrect? If so what changes should I make? For instance when you say "add the right transmit tone" is that the "Tone" or "Tone Squelch" column? How do "clear the receiver tone" or what is the equivalent column?

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, Guest learning_as_i_go said:

The channels I have programmed 1-6 were downloaded from repeaterbook - I did not manually configure them. In my screenshot it shows the "Offset/TX freq" for channels 1-6, and 10 are +5 so using channel 1 as an example the "Frequency" value is set to 462.625 and the "Offset/TX freq" is set to 5, so I would expect the TX freq to be 467.625.

I'm not sure what you mean by "add the right transmit tone, clear the receiver tone". I do see that two of the channel configurations I downloaded from repeaterbook have a "Tone" value as opposed to the others. Again these are configurations from repeaterbook, they are not values I entered manually although I did change the "Name" values. Are you inferring that the configurations from repeaterbook are incorrect? If so what changes should I make? For instance when you say "add the right transmit tone" is that the "Tone" or "Tone Squelch" column? How do "clear the receiver tone" or what is the equivalent column?

I would expect the settings in repeaterbook to be correct.  This site, mygmrs.com, has a more comprehensive database of GMRS repeaters, but there’s nothing wrong with repeaterbook.

As far as setting the right tone for transmit, that’s the tone that appears in either the Tone or the Tone Squelch column.  In both instances the tone that’s listed is transmitted to the repeater.

But, if Tone Mode is set to TSQL, your radio will not reproduce any transmissions that don’t include the tone shown in the TSQL column. If Tone Mode is set to Tone, your radio reproduces everything it hears on the RX frequency. So, when I say clear the receiver tone, I mean change the Tone Mode to Tone.  For some radios, manually programming them you literally remove or clear the RX tone.  For people who are failing to receive signals from a repeater, the first troubleshooting technique I use is to clear the RX tone (or set the Tone Mode to Tone, which is the same thing.)

My concern about VFO usage was because I saw that you have 467.625 MHz in your B VFO.  That could cause confusion because you’ll hear the other radio direct as it transmits to the repeater while you’re trying to listen to the repeater.  

[wayoverthere]

On 12/15/2024 at 1:16 PM, Guest learning_as_i_go said:

I'm still having issues. When at home we can transmit and receive using simplex on 467.625 in frequency mode. Here's everything I have programmed on both radios (channel 42 in the picture was moved up to 10 in the screenshot):

(I assume DTMF has no relevance for my issue but here you go)

I tried all of the channels 1 - 6 that I downloaded from repeaterbook and I renamed them so I could distinguish the city and call sign. According to the map I should be well within their radiuses especially Amanda and Johnstown which have huge coverage areas. Here is what the screen looks like for each channel and #42 (again - #10 in the above config) that I programmed manually:

 

 

 

 

 

 

When in our house I can tx/rx using channel 10. I see the tx freq change from 462.625 to 467.625 and on the other radio I see it come in on rx freq 467.625. Gave my gf 1 radio and I steadily drove away and did check-ins along the way. We're in a semi-rural area so I'm not sure what the expectation is but we got about 1/2 a mile apart and it started to get choppy, then as I got farther neither of us saw the rx light and obviously couldn't hear either tx or talk. Communicated via text and tried switching to the other channels, which I would expect with the repeater strength to have a better chance, but none of them worked.

Conducted a test right near each other and steadily driving apart and posted results above. Appreciate your help. Let me know if you need any additional pictures or tests.

(i'll note i wrote most of this on sunday, but somehow forgot to hit "Post"...i think it mostly still works...)

 

Thanks for the screenshots.   Given the success with your Ch 10, the radio is working, and i went through most of the listings for the repeaters listed (except that last one), and it looks like your programming is pretty spot on with the listings.

Under normal usage, as @SteveShannon mentioned, you won't normally be listening on the 467.xxx to hear if you have  something coming back from the repeater. It IS a good way to at least confirm with another radio that your transmitting radio is indeed transmitting.

To rule out a tone issue, i'd probably switch all of them from tonesql to tone, and use transmit tones only, unless you're SURE there's another repeater in range that you'll want to filter out, then test again. 

From there, the other main possibility I can see is range.  I do see the bit of variance between the reported ranges of those repeaters, so i do wonder how accurate they all are...I know the mapping just draws a circle based on the range estimate entered, but real world sometimes varies.  @WRKC935 is quite active on here, and could likely say better than any of us what the actual range and pattern are like for that one. 

This map is an example from one of the ham systems here in CA, mapping signal strength through the region (in fairness, i'm not sure if this is modeled or on the ground tested), and note how signal strength varies based on obstructions.  there'll likely be a bit less variance in pattern in flatter regions of the country, but not usually a 100% circle.

 

[WRKC935]

Be aware that the 'coverage map' on the mygmrs.com web site is NOT a generated heat map like the one displayed above.  It's a simple circle around the TX site that gives an average expected coverage based on path loss across flat ground.  Meaning, if you look at the map for Johnstown675 on here, it ain't right, or even close, depending on the direction you are from the repeater.  The map of my repeater (WRKC935 / Johnstown675) shows coverage in Pataskala, Newark, downtown Columbus, and several other area's that I have no coverage in.  Those coverage holes are caused by the topography of the area.  Case in point is the Granville ridge.  I have good coverage on 161 / St Rt16 going east right up to the point you cross where Granville is and St Rt 16 comes in from Pataskala.  After that the coverage stops for a time and then picks back up closer to Newark and continues out to St Rd 146 and further.  Same thing happens going West,  Works great until Little Turtle exit off 161.  Then falls off getting on the 270 outer belt.  But if you continue west on 161 it's good most of the way to St Rt 23 (High Street) in Worthington.  Then it falls off until you get west of Columbus and then picks up until you are out to St Rt56 on I-70.  I have talked from the Honda plant Northwest of Marysville, From Mechanicsburg, and from London (42 / I-70 ) from a portable.

So my point is that you should NOT have an expectation that all area's in the green circle are going to work based on the mygmrs.com maps.  And you are further limited due to using a handheld radio.  The power is lower and the antenna's do not have the gain that a mobile or a base station would have.  I say all this based on the programming that you have in your radio you posted the codeplug of.  If you have the Pataskala repeater programmed, I know that machine has limited coverage in that area due to antenna height.  If you are in the Pataskala area, and are having coverage issues getting into the Johnstown repeater, that's why you are having issues.  I can't talk to it from Pataskala with a 50 watt mobile.  The coverage just isn't there.