GMRS and FRS

[sferguso11]

I'm looking at setting up a "neighborhood" network that incorporates both FRS and GMRS radios.  I know it's technically possible, but I'm not completely sure what if any FCC rules there may be that I'd have to take into consideration before implementing the FRS and GMRS neighborhood network.  Any recomendations, suggestions or other input into setting up a FRS/GMRS network that won't violate any FCC regulations or any technical problems.  

[SteveShannon]

5 minutes ago, sferguso11 said:

I'm looking at setting up a "neighborhood" network that incorporates both FRS and GMRS radios.  I know it's technically possible, but I'm not completely sure what if any FCC rules there may be that I'd have to take into consideration before implementing the FRS and GMRS neighborhood network.  Any recomendations, suggestions or other input into setting up a FRS/GMRS network that won't violate any FCC regulations or any technical problems.  

By “Network” do you mean a simplex sched? A radio meeting where people who are available check in at a specific time, either as directed according to a roll call read by a net controller or perhaps in response to a call form net controller for check-ins?  If so, there are no rules that prohibit such an activity.

Many times such things are done using a repeater for greater range, but the FRS radios wouldn’t be able to.

[Socalgmrs]

Nope no issues at all.  Like already said if you want a repeater then it will only be gmrs. But if it’s simplex (radio to radio) then all is good.   We have one of our local mountain emergency groups is mostly FRS.   It’s mostly older folks that won’t be able to self evac in a fire or snow storm and the cells and line lines go down all the time so the group got together and every one purchased an FRS or gmrs (and license) radio and they can communicate in the community and out to the rest of us if they need help of any kind.   A 91yr old sweet lady also runs a weekly simplex net.  

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, Socalgmrs said:

Nope no issues at all.  Like already said if you want a repeater then it will only be gmrs. But if it’s simplex (radio to radio) then all is good.   We have one of our local mountain emergency groups is mostly FRS.   It’s mostly older folks that won’t be able to self evac in a fire or snow storm and the cells and line lines go down all the time so the group got together and every one purchased an FRS or gmrs (and license) radio and they can communicate in the community and out to the rest of us if they need help of any kind.   A 91yr old sweet lady also runs a weekly simplex net.  

Great examples!

[WRTC928]

Although FRS users won't be able to transmit on a repeater, it certainly might be worthwhile to be sure they know what channel the repeater will be operating on, and perhaps even set up a regular (perhaps weekly) schedule to disseminate information via repeater. 

[MarkInTampa]

One of the retirement communities 20 miles south of me (Sun City Center) has some kind of FRS/GMRS emergency network thing on simplex they do every Wednesday morning. Net control starts the net with a preamble of what it is, a website for more information and his GMRS call sign. About all I can hear is net control and their security patrol, everyone else I assume are FRS (like I said, 20 miles away but net control hits me full scale). The users are assigned radios and a id, something like Alpha 1-20, Bravo 1-20, etc and they go through the check in procedure including asking for relays. At the end of the net, they sign off with their GMRS callsign, that's about the only time it's used. 

[WRYZ926]

3 minutes ago, MarkInTampa said:

One of the retirement communities 20 miles south of me (Sun City Center) has some kind of FRS/GMRS emergency network thing on simplex they do every Wednesday morning. Net control starts the net with a preamble of what it is, a website for more information and his GMRS call sign. About all I can hear is net control and their security patrol, everyone else I assume are FRS. The users are assigned radios and a id, something like Alpha 1-20, Bravo 1-20, etc and they go through the check in procedure including asking for relays. At the end of the net, they sign off with their GMRS callsign, that's about the only time it's used. 

At least they are using their radios and practicing for when an actual emergency does happen. Radios are like firearms, people buy them "just in case" and never actually use them or practice with them.

[sferguso11]

When I say network I'm using the term loosely.  I'm looking at getting something going by my parents for the neighbors that are year round or snow birds that I know well enough to be able to do things like: call out see if anyone wants to walk the neighborhood; if a neighbor is out and about and see a bear or other dangerous situation let the other neighbors know; if power or other services go out find out who else is affected or to get help; if the road is blocked see if anyone has reported it;  etc.  It's on a dead end road, a few miles outside of a small town, so a mix of year round residents, vacation homes, and people that live there in the warmer months and go south for the colder months.  I'm sure not everyone in the neighborhood would want to get a GMRS or Ham license.  That's why I'd be looking at doing a mix of GMRS(for those who want to get a license) and FRS for those who don't, add in a repeater for those that want to do GMRS and maybe connect with other GMRS users in the area.

[MarkInTampa]

32 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

At least they are using their radios and practicing for when an actual emergency does happen. Radios are like firearms, people buy them "just in case" and never actually use them or practice with them.

I'm actually amazed at how well it's done. Each radio group (a-n or something like that) has around 10 users and a group leader for those groups. They pre-check in the group leaders first before the net starts to make sure they are there, start the net and start check-ins starting with radio/user Alpha-1, Alpha-2, etc to the end of the group, ask for relays and then proceed to the next group. Very organized, especially for non licensed users. Some ham nets could learn a thing or two from them. 

[UncleYoda]

26 minutes ago, sferguso11 said:

to do things like: call out see if anyone wants to walk the neighborhood; if a neighbor is out and about and see a bear or other dangerous situation let the other neighbors know; if power or other services go out find out who else is affected or to get help; if the road is blocked see if anyone has reported it;  etc. 

For mine, I wouldn't send anyone out to do a wellness/safety check unless they are armed (and reasonably able) because you don't know what they may encounter.

[SteveShannon]

44 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

For mine, I wouldn't send anyone out to do a wellness/safety check unless they are armed (and reasonably able) because you don't know what they may encounter.

I sold guns for over 40 years as a side gig, I’ve been an NRA member for 52 years, and once in a while I carried a gun. I think the idea of arming people must be approached carefully. I think it really depends on your neighborhood and the type of risk you might encounter.  For many places sending a bunch of untrained armed people out is just an invitation to tragedy. Often times having a gun gives a person false courage that leads to walking towards bad situations rather than calling someone who is better trained.

[UncleYoda]

No one is "arming people" - if they don't have defensive weapons (not necessarily guns), then they would not be asked to do any checks.  My comment above is not intended to be right for everyone everywhere, it's just how I choose to approach it.  And it is just a plan at this stage, no need to implement it yet.  [The fact that someone on the internet or this site disagrees is meaningless to me (not to mention taking it out of context and twisting the meaning).  ]

[TDM827]

4 hours ago, sferguso11 said:

I'm looking at setting up a "neighborhood" network that incorporates both FRS and GMRS radios.  I know it's technically possible, but I'm not completely sure what if any FCC rules there may be that I'd have to take into consideration before implementing the FRS and GMRS neighborhood network.  Any recomendations, suggestions or other input into setting up a FRS/GMRS network that won't violate any FCC regulations or any technical problems.  

As others eluded to. My "suggestion and recommendation" is to make sure the group has the discipline to reasonably train and learn how to communicate before the stuff hits the fan. This includes identifying a leader and back up leaders to make sure someone manages the program.

I can't remember how many times I talked to neighborhood watches, groups and preparedness folks who started something with great intentions. Six months later they were non-existent because a key member left, or they just didn't want to be bothered with "boring" stuff. 

So I would at the least identify a group leader and at least one back up leader to drive things. Rotating this duty among members goes a long way in preventing burn out.

 

[WSHH887]

Sounds like a wireless version of the old phone tree. 
 

when I moved here in '79 my Nextdoor neighbor explained they had one for the block and a bit beyond. Something happened you would call the person above and below you. They call the next one. If that person doesn't answer you called the next. Worked great as long as the phones did. 
 

Being a long stable area most of us have our neighbors cell numbers. It's not as organized anymore (the motivating force passed a few years ago). But e keep tabs on older less firm folks. Plus we just like to gab. 

[sferguso11]

Not looking at arming anyone, or getting a neighborhood watch going.  Wellness checks wouldn't be a main reason, just more of an informal check in/road's blocked/dangerous critter out/has anyone seen or heard from neighbor/wanna get together type thing.  Maybe even if kids are out checking in with parent(s) or parent(s) calling kids to get back home.  Out fishing and stuff like checking in at home, home calling out saying got a phone call, telling home your headed back and have fish(es) or didn't get anything.  Or even kids checking in with friends 2 houses over type thing.

[GrouserPad]

7 hours ago, WSHH887 said:

Sounds like a wireless version of the old phone tree. 
 

when I moved here in '79 my Nextdoor neighbor explained they had one for the block and a bit beyond. Something happened you would call the person above and below you. They call the next one. If that person doesn't answer you called the next. Worked great as long as the phones did. 
 

Being a long stable area most of us have our neighbors cell numbers. It's not as organized anymore (the motivating force passed a few years ago). But e keep tabs on older less firm folks. Plus we just like to gab. 

Dang man. I’ve had 3 new neighbors move near me who replaced the old timers. None of them want to share numbers, or be neighborly at all. Absolutely odd af to me. But I guess that’s the difference in 15 years as I’m the old man on the block at mid 40’s and all these kids work from home and never leave their house. Thought it would be good to get to know them since there around all the time but nope. They have zero ability to be a neighbor whatsoever. Don’t even look up to wave when I pull in the driveway. Weird generation.  Can’t believe their parents brought them up to become that way. Neighbor block watch around here can’t work when the neighbors don’t want to know your name. 

[WSHH887]

Here's part of the secret.  My next door neighbor bought there house.  But the wife grew up in a house, still owned by her parents at the other end of the block.  The husband has several cousins and two uncles living across the alley.  The house up the street on the corner is owned by a third generation. A few door down it's second generation, along with one being rebuilt across the street.  Even many of the folks who are "new", meaning last 15 to 20 years, grew up in town and we seem to know their aunts, uncles, cousins, parent an grand parents.  You see until just recently there were only two high schools in town.  One a public school, and the other a Catholic high school.  And, most of our parents and for the younger folks grand parents went to one or the other.  

I mentioned previously about finding a marine electronic store.  Turns out the owner was only a year ahead of me in high school.  Neither of us put it together initially.  We ran in different circles.  

And to top it off, my high school teacher for Trig and Calc was the same one my dad had.  The first day in trig class he asked me if I was related to that red headed Frank kid.  Apparently my dad was an even bigger smarta## than I was.

[WRTC928]

20 hours ago, WRYZ926 said:

At least they are using their radios and practicing for when an actual emergency does happen. Radios are like firearms, people buy them "just in case" and never actually use them or practice with them.

I use this analogy with the prepper communities. Often when they say they have a radio in case of emergencies, I say, "Who are you going to call?" It's a bit surprising how many of them never really thought of that. They just assume there's some channel where they can call and someone will be listening. I'm not bagging on preppers, I'm just pointing out that they benefit from education, like everyone else. If you get in the habit of using the radio regularly to talk to family, friends, whatever, you'll be much better prepared to use it in the event of an emergency. I wouldn't want to be trying to figure out my rifle or my radio when things have already gone bad. Or my water filter or my fire-making kit, for that matter.

[WRTC928]

Completely tangential, but one of the few things I remember from military survival training is that if you can make a fire and get access to clean water, you won't die for at least a week, often more.

[WSHH887]

I'm not a "prepper".  But living in earthquake and fire country (until the Palisades fire I didn't consider this fire country), I am prepared for such eventualities. 

So who would I call. Pretty much anyone who would answer. In a disaster information is vital. And authorities do monitor the full spectrum of radio communications. Both to send help and to obtain information on the scope and severity of the incident. 
In short the same thing folks originally used CB for. 

[WRYZ926]

@WRTC928 I tell people the exact same thing all of the time. One needs to practice and be proficient with the tools they plan on using in an emergency. That covers everything from communication, defense, first aid, etc.

I went through the air crew survival training, jungle warfare training, and combat lifesaver course while I was in the Army. Even with that type of training you still need to practice to keep your skill level up.

Even just picking up a radio once a week to talk to family and friends is enough to keep your skills up. One should trim with what tools they will need so that their use is second nature.

 

[WSHH887]

Aircrew survival training. That really sucked. I did mine at Hurlburt. Where did the Army send you?

[MarkInTampa]

11 hours ago, GrouserPad said:

Dang man. I’ve had 3 new neighbors move near me who replaced the old timers. None of them want to share numbers, or be neighborly at all. Absolutely odd af to me. But I guess that’s the difference in 15 years as I’m the old man on the block at mid 40’s and all these kids work from home and never leave their house. Thought it would be good to get to know them since there around all the time but nope. They have zero ability to be a neighbor whatsoever. Don’t even look up to wave when I pull in the driveway. Weird generation.  Can’t believe their parents brought them up to become that way. Neighbor block watch around here can’t work when the neighbors don’t want to know your name. 

When I bought my house, I went to the neighbors on both sides of me and introduced myself and asked to exchange telephone info in case of emergency. One neighbor was cool, the other was a jerk (in 10 years I don't think I spoke more than 2 sentences to him) and told me "I'm not comfortable giving you my number". Fast forward a few years, I come home from work there are fire trucks in his front yard and they are getting ready to take out his front door with a battering ram due to an alarm. They ask if I have a way to contact him, told them I didn't and they ram down his front door. He pulled up maybe 30 seconds later. He went to the store, left something cooking on the stove that burnt and set off the smoke alarm. Karma in action.

 

[Davichko5650]

2 hours ago, WSHH887 said:

Aircrew survival training. That really sucked. I did mine at Hurlburt. Where did the Army send you?

SERE Training at Ft. Devens, MA - with the 10th SFG after were done with K3 (ECM) training.  Fun times with the "snake eaters".

[wrci350]

3 hours ago, WSHH887 said:

So who would I call. Pretty much anyone who would answer. In a disaster information is vital. And authorities do monitor the full spectrum of radio communications. Both to send help and to obtain information on the scope and severity of the incident. 
In short the same thing folks originally used CB for. 

Having a plan to "just call anyone" isn't really a plan.  As has been mentioned, that's the flaw in "I got my GMRS (or technician) license and bought a radio that I store in a box in case of emergencies but have never actually used it".

Rumor has it that there is a TLA agency that monitors "the full spectrum of radio communications" but they are looking for particular types of radio traffic and are not going to send help, no matter what the disaster.  There is no way for local authorities to listen everywhere all the time.  Chances are they don't have the resources to even listen to a few frequencies.  Back in the day, CB 9 *was* monitored in a lot of places, but those days are long gone.