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Yes, why would anyone ever be curious to learn more about something that doesn't directly affect them in obvious ways anyone can see from the outside? Their profile could say "Texas" and it'd still be a valid question...

Just seeing this, so behind a bit. Hopefully, this concept died. Amateur Radio (which I am a ham) serves it purposes on its bands, including segments of the UHF spectrum, where GMRS lives. As a repeater owner, I've never told anyone not to talk tech, but the reason the repeater is there is for families, and general communications between GMRS licensees. It's not an alternate rag chew repeater when the ham repeaters are busy, which isn't common around here. Having read the introduction of the filing, it may try to claim on the surface it's not about grabbing more frequencies, but the end result is just that. Experimentation on GMRS frequencies is fine to obtain the goals of having equipment on the air. But the use of and spirit on GMRS needs to remain for family and licensee communications. If you're a ham and want to talk to your family, get a GMRS license. Don't try to piggyback somewhere else. Let's all stay in our lanes. John/WPXA902

Because this topic come up again and again.

Because you know that you just wasted all of that time reading something that will absolutely never happen. Basically you just had a long mental-masturbation session with no final-end and you have blue-brain now...

As the disaster unfolds in North Carolina, I am reminded of other significant events that have affected entire communities in one form or another. From hurricanes to wildfires, earthquakes, or any other major incident, one thing is getting less and less recognition these days, and that is the amateur radio service. Yeah, I get it. There is a perception that it's just a bunch of elderly gentlemen sitting around smoking cigarettes, drinking coffee, listening to the ether, and pounding some morse code to some contact halfway around the world. Or maybe they are repeating CQ CQ CQ into a microphone and listening for a return call. They will spend a bunch of money on equipment, experiment with antennas and electronics, and even try to implement newer technology into what they do. Some might look at it and call all of this a hobby or even a waste of time, but it's not because all of this may be needed for more than just talking to Japan or Croatia for fun. Make no mistake, though, that the perception of old guys huddled around the warm glow of radio tubes is probably closer to reality than you think. The reason for that is twofold. Those involved are aging quickly. The current average age of an amateur radio operator is 68 years old and getting older. There are, however, younger people who are exposed to the service; they are just not as interested. Please make no mistake: the service is losing members faster than we are gaining, and it's becoming a dying art form. As for outreach to the youth or younger members, the Boy Scouts of America still have a radio badge they can obtain. Sometimes, exposure might occur on Field Day every June in your local community park. Or it might happen at a POTA (Parks On the Air) activation. Here's a bit of trivia for you. Guglielmo Marconi built the first radio set and sent the first transmission 1 km away at the age of 20. We need more of that. The second reason it's an aging service is that in today's society, we have become too comfortable with the technology we use and assume it will always be available. We look at our cell phones and see 2 or 4 bars everywhere. But those connect to towers and not each other. Some of those towers are in very remote areas, require a stable climate-controlled environment, and always require reliable power. Interestingly, some sites also house the first responders' radio services. However, as the Lahaina Hawaii fire and the Helene flooding in North Carolina have shown, no technology is infallible. Including the internet connection you are reading this article on. Without power, nothing works. But as I sit listening to Broadcastify along with over 700 others to N2GE 145.19MHz Mount Mitchell amateur radio repeater in North Carolina, I hear the coordination between operators posted at hospitals, fire stations, and police stations. All of it is in real-time. Some are staged at local airports, flying in helicopters to deliver radios and supplies or assisting in critical evacuations. It would not surprise me to discover that radio operators are embedded with search and rescue teams. Some of these communications include wellness check requests from people outside the affected area. This can free up valuable first responder resources even if their radio services work. Who are these people? Well, they are experienced radio operators who volunteer their time and their own equipment to assist in emergencies such as this. In some cases, they belong to two volunteer emergency radio communications teams, ARES (Amateur Radio Emergency Service) and RACES (Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service). What's the difference? ARES provides local, remote, or relay EMCOMMS (Emergency Communications) and coordination. Conversely, RACES works with local civil defense officials and government agencies such as FEMA or DHS. Between the 2, ARES has more flexibility. You might ask yourself why amateur radio works when everything else doesn't. The reason for that is that amateur radio operators, by their very nature, are tinkerers and experimenters. They figure out how to maintain power and stretch that resource out for as long as possible. This might include different battery technologies, implementing solar panels, or more efficient antennas. Having a more efficient antenna uses less power to transmit. More power is not necessarily better in this instance, and it could be bad to use the wrong antenna. Needless to say, we find a way to make it work in our hands, vehicles, and homes because adaptability to any situation is key. From HF (High Frequencies) to UHF (Ultra High Frequencies), operating for short and long distances, this is our specialty. So, in an emergency, that neighbor with the view-crushing antenna the HOA has been fighting to remove just might save your bacon. You might knock on their door, buy them a coffee, and talk to them about what it is they do. Also, consider contacting your local clubs, even if it's to get a basic understanding of the different radio services available to the average person, whether that is FRS (Family Radio Service), GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service), or amateur radio. Knowing more about them and their capability will always be helpful in an emergency. I want to point out two things if you have made it this far. Even if you don't have an amateur radio license, you don't need one to listen. You also don't need one if it is a last resort of communication for you and your family in an emergency. You can use any radio on any service to ask for help. In addition, no matter what radio you get, you should be able to listen to NOAA radio for local weather information. So, if you were to pick up a radio at Walmart or order one on Amazon right now, would you know which channel is the commonly used emergency channel or frequency? Do you know the NOAA frequencies for your immediate area? Do you know what the radio's limitations are? Please don't believe the packaging that says it can talk 20 or 30 miles; they can't. That would only be in perfect conditions with a direct line of site. To summarize, learn about the service you are interested in and how it can work for you in an emergency. Please don't wait for the next disaster to be left in the dark without communication or information. Don't think you can rely on your neighbor in an emergency because they may have evacuated, been injured, or suffered worse. Nowadays, with information at our fingertips, many resources are available to learn about what radio services can do for you or even your family. With books, websites, and even YouTube channels dedicated to teaching people about amateur radio and GMRS services, it's all there for you, and in most cases, it's free. Finally, to those providing communications to the affected areas right now in North Carolina, I've been listening. You guys are doing outstanding work with Net Control, resource coordination, information gathering, and disseminating that information to those who need it. I applaud you for being a shining example of what amateur radio is truly about --giving back to the community. I can only hope that if I am ever in that situation, our local radio operators can be as calm and organized as you. For now, I will be signing off with this. 73 de Whiskey Zero Whiskey Foxtrot Mike and I will be clear of this frequency.

I do actually travel. Idaho isn't that far away and parts are above Line A. Also like I said I know people who this issue does affect who had questions about it. I investigated a little and saw the document @SteveShannon linked to which references the "above 25MHz treaty" which originally establishes the Radio Border lines. The 2 specific GMRS frequency pairs are kind of orphans created by 60 years of rule making by 2 countries somewhat independently. And while in effect the prohibition no longer serves the purpose it once did. There is verbiage in that treaty about shared services and it alludes to one party changed the use/restriction of frequencies the other may as well. So it's possible the FCC is internally looking at that specifically. But yes it is likely it will be years before we see any potential changes. It was kinda a cool look for me into how regulations change and develop. I deal with interpreting regulations for a living and I find it interesting to talk to different regulatory bodies on how they write and interpret regulations. And that can be especially difficult when the world changes faster than regulations can.

I sent an email recently asking for the basis of the line a restriction. Not due to my doubting of its validity but from curiosity due to Canada now using the frequencies listed as prohibited for their GMRS service and to see if the fcc had plans or if it was just a relic on the license. Dear FCC OMR, I am inquiring as to a discrepancy in the license provided for General Mobile Radio Service, Title 47 Part 95 Subpart E. Line A is mentioned on the license issued for GMRS prohibiting certain frequencies and I am curious as to the current code reference for that text as quoted: "Exception: Licensees who operate North of Line A and East of Line C may not operate on channels 462.650 MHZ, 467.650 MHZ, 462.700 MHZ and 467.700 MHZ unless your previous license authorized such operations." I was unable to find any code in the current eCFR Title 47 Part 95 that this exception refers to. Although I am aware of similar restrictions existing in Part 97 and Part 90 regarding other radio services but neither of those contain code that reflects a range that includes the frequencies referred to in the GMRS license restriction. Is there a current code reference that could be provided for that restriction? " I got a very nice email from the FCC in response. "Good Afternoon, This email is in response to your inquiry below. When you applied for your GMRS license in the Universal Licensing System (ULS), the application process required that you certify that you would not use the channels below when operating above Line A or East of Line C (see the snippet below from the reference copy of your application). This requirement was originally put in place due to incompatible uses in Canada. 95.309 provides that the operator of a personal radio service station may be subject to operating restrictions if the station is to be operated in certain locations described in the rules. We are evaluating if this restriction is still necessary based on Canada’s current usage of the channels. With that said, your license is currently conditioned to restrict use of these channels North of Line A and East of Line C so you may not operate on the channels in these areas as long as your license is conditioned with this restriction. I hope that this helpful Joshua Smith Assistant Division Chief Mobility Division Wireless Telecommunications Bureau " I think the important part here is that they are reviewing the current restrictions. Which gives me hope for a potential laxing of that rule. But for now Line A/C restrictions remain.

It’s like the beginning of the “linked repeaters” silliness all over again. SMH

To your first 3 bullet points: ALL of that spectrum is already allocated to Part 90 (either as paging/radiotelephone or LMR) and will never be reallocated to a family service. Do a FCC ULS search for your proposed frequencies to see what I am talking about. Requiring Narrowband would be theoretical if there was new spectrum available, but narrowbanding the existing frequencies will be utterly useless when there's already interstitial channels (FRS) between existing GMRS channels which would cause a lot of co-channel interference issues. Digital Voice would not be within the rules either unless the point above with narrowbanding was able to be settled, and even then would only be one permitted modulation to prevent splintering of the service in a way that causes more issues than it solves. There's already super stringent regulation on data over the voice channels so I do not see a full digital modulation being easily accepted, never mind allowing multiple. With all that said, there would not be any grandfathering allowed since these would be sweeping changes to the service that would mean that some of the currently grandfathered users would become unintentional interference to the other user base. Moving the service definition will never happen either as all parts of 47 CFR have regulations which dictate frequencies and use cases for each service, none of which cross-over or are movable by current rule - FCC won't rewrite the book for GMRS especially with the current "attention" happening. Part 90 equipment on Part 95 - that is actually doable and I was working on in 2017 and 2019 but would need to be a separate effort from everything else considering what I mentioned above about all the other pieces. Add type acceptance onto frequency/spectrum management for a service and this would stall before it got any traction. I think you have a lot of spirit with this but sadly none of it is truly doable except the last part which should be tackled first to show that existing certified radios can be used in Part 95, which be default in 2024 opens up the "commonality of digital capable radios in a family service" and then work up from there. Sadly though there won't be any "free lunch" and GMRS will not see any change in frequency allocations unless something else is given up which this being my day job as well... I have yet to come to a workable conclusion that could be pitched to the FCC.

I can’t help but see the irony of someone in Southern California who is reading a thread clearly labeled about line A and C which they themselves are no where near questioning why someone in Utah cares about line A and C. Why would you want know things? Why wouldn’t you?

Is this the ‘cover’ page you see? If so, just scroll down.

Greensboro 675 is active in the AM, Raliegh 675 Ive been told is good coverage but never heard a peep going thru the area. Thats about it until you get into Williamsburg. If you go 70 there is one I've heard but dont recall the frequency. Not alot over there I've heard. My route is normally off to 70 down to new bern then south for family.

While it's slower, you can do pretty much everything on the radio (up to and including to naming channels). There's a handful of guides out there for programming these (and the other AT779UV clones. About the only thing I don't think you can do is change the welcome message, but that's not massive. 99% of the time I don't even see mine haha

It’s not a preference that every person who isn’t a relative be individually licensed; it’s a requirement.

After reading all that my head hurts and I’m wondering….why?

My point was not that someone shouldn’t care but that they are free to care and be interested in what they want. I’m not sure you understood where I was coming from. Perhaps I don’t understand your point. My father is from Michigan for what it’s worth.

Yep, my HAM worked off the repeaters etc but no GMRS COMMS at all during the last hurricane. Just got power back and internet.

I'm recently new to GMRS and after several purchases of HT radios, I've decided to make the leap to getting a mobile radio for my Land Cruiser for my off roading adventures. After watching a couple YouTube videos, scrolling through the forums here on myGMRS.com and reading a couple Reddit posts. I've decided I want to go with a Kenwood mobile radio, specifically the TK-8180 line. I found two refurbished radios, the TK-8180 (30 watts) and the TK-8180H (45 watts). Like with most of my purchases I was going to full send on the 45 watts version till I came across a post where they stated that the 45 watts version only goes down to 10 watts on low, versus the 5 watts on low that the 30 watts version can do. Again I'm relatively new to the GMRS world so apologies if I get this wrong but seeing that the 45 watts version doesn't go down to 5 watts, that would mean I wouldn't be able to transmit on the channels 1 - 7 correct? Why is that an issue you ask? Well the group I usually go off roading with they like to stay on channel 5, they say that it's the channel that has the "least" amount of traffic on it. Despite my requests to move to a channel in the 15 - 22 channel range, I get out voted every time.. I know that there isn't a big difference from a transmitting and receiving standpoint between the 30 watts and 45 watts versions. I also know that the antenna and positioning of the antenna play a bigger role than the power levels. However is there any other differences between the two versions? Would I be missing anything if I went with the 30 watts version? The only reason I wanted the 45 watts version was for that extra bit of punching power if I ever needed it. Would I need to worry about heating issues with the 45 watts version? I plan to have it mounted on my dash since the previous owner already drilled holes for some type of radio or monitoring device. Seeing that the 8180 is a commercial radio, would I need to get my LMR license in order to legally use it? Even if I plan to use it only for GMRS purposes? I look forward to some of the answers I get and/or feedback. Either would be greatly appreciated.

PMJI, but, for a GMRS newbie also looking into getting a 8180, this was a very informative thread, thank you.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-2

It came up during discussions of people I know who live above Line A who asked me and so I asked the FCC. I also was curious and I read through a couple of related treaties and regulations on the origin of those lines. Its relatively interesting. It got to the point where I was like I really want to see the code reference here. It had nothing to do with questioning the rule more to do with where does this rule still live.

A lot of people, myself included, started out with a handheld radio and a magnet mount antenna for vehicle use. While range might be limited due to using a 5 watt radio, it allows you to get on the air while figuring out what you want for a good mobile and/or base radio.

Pics aren't showing (for me)

And how come the lines aren't in order? As you go north, it's A,B,D,C instead of A,B,C,D. I mean, the real question is how can we trust they made good decisions when they got the order of the alphabet wrong?

The neighborhood is not very big but most of my connections are outside of this neighborhood and once I hit the neighborhood we loos transmissions due to either trees , houses, or other RF interference. . I think it’s best I just do a simple base station set up . I have most all the hardware. We shall see what happens.

The Roger Beep may be on by default on your radio. Function shortcut F+7 toggles in on and off.

That's an interesting response. Expect any change to take decades. The US is still bound by international agreement with Canada, anything above line C, exceeding 5 watts ERP, must be coordinated with Canada, regardless of FCC "service" (industrial/business, public safety or federal) or end user. Page 10, item 4 (a): https://transition.fcc.gov/ib/sand/agree/files/can-nb/above30.pdf This is why there is a Line C comment on itinerant business licenses over 5W stating "Location X Special Condition: Area of operation is restricted to south of Line A and/or west of Line C" and the note on itinerant business licenses of 5W or less stating "Operation on this frequency is on a non-interference basis to Canadian operations and you must accept all interference from operations in Canada. Licensee is responsible for resolving any complaint of interference to Canadian systems arising form operations on this frequency, including, if necessary, cessation of such operations." After discussions with the FCC, it's a Catch 22, because itinerant cannot and are not coordinated by definition, thus you are stuck with the restrictions. This is the same with GMRS, without revision to the previously coordinated 50W channels, or reduction of the allowable power to 5W, we are stuck with Line A & C. I can wish it would be changed, I don't see it happening. It does beg the question of why those 2/4 frequencies were not previously coordinated, as well as the itinerant frequencies, but the Government rarely makes sense.

First of all Mr. Doan, you are not authorized to use the CRESST Santiago repeater on 462.675MHz. If you would like permission to use it, you may contact the owner or President of CREST Communications at (951) 897-4153. The dues are $36 annually (prorated the first year) and must agree to participate in a minimum of two sanctioned team events annually.

What "some people" (nod to Randy) like to refer to as "ham lite". I go with the service to effect commuications with family and a handful of friends/neighbors, but especially when up north where cellphones are spotty at best. Somewhat around town here, mostly on the HT's around the house. I go to other services for talking to strangers and friends in the DX world!

Hummm… This could be the topic for another thread. GMRS seems to be mutating into a hobbyist type service. It seems the original primary intent by the FCC was a radio service simple enough to be used by ordinary people with basically no background in radio communication technology for their personal use, and immediate family members.

I'm fairly new to the GMRS world, but I personally hope the FCC shuts down or severely limits linked GMRS repeaters. I get why folks want it and I see the appeal, and I also hate government over-reach just as much as the next guy, but I also am getting tired of hearing the exact same conversation on every single channel. I'm lucky/unfortunate enough to be smack in the middle of a fairly large club's repeater network that spans literally every single repeater pair.

One more thing. Sometimes these radios are loaded with the "Passport" firmware in place of the regular LTR one. In that case when you try to program the radio using the KPG software the radio display show "USE SJ-180". That's the special "Passport" version. You can fix it by writing the normal LTR firmware to the radio. However the firmware write feature has to be enabled. If not then you need the SJ-180 radio programming software and enable the firmware write feature. I've attached a copy of that too. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the mobile radios LTR firmware file, just the portables. SJ-180 v2.2.0.6 for TK-7180-7180H-7182-7182H-8180-8180H 2.zip

As pointed out there won't be much of a difference between 30 watts and 45 watts. If you're a long winded talker the 30 watt radio will generate a lot less heat that has to be radiated by the cooling fins in the radio's chassis. If the radio is going to get mounted in an area with restricted air flow that might be a big deal. Sitting on the dash board it's going to "cook" a bit from sun light exposure. One other thing to look out for is which "band split" you get. These radios come in several ranges, 450-520, for the 30 watt radio, 450-512 for the 45 watt version. The 400-470 range is available for the 30 and 45 watt version. Note only the 450-520, and the 450-512, have FCC type 95 certification if that's a concern for you. Otherwise any of the ranges will work for GMRS. You can double check the FCC grants for which FCC parts the radio is certified for by looking up the FCC ID found in the attached brochure at: https://fccid.io/ You'll need a programming cable. I recommend getting one from this site: https://bluemax49ers.com/ The programming software is attached. Use the "engineering" install serial. That one allows you access to a few more features and the all important read/write password bypass. Some used radios have a read/write password set. Without this feature you'll never reprogram the radio if the write password is set. I've used this software to program some TK-2180's and TK-3180's which are the portable versions of the mobiles. TK-7180_8180.pdf KPG-89D V1.61.zip

TID-Radio offers a K-1 plug in dongle and Bluetooth App that works with a limited number of HTs. https://tidradio.com/products/high-performance-handheld-radio-wireless-cable-programmer