Lscott
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Posts posted by Lscott
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On 10/7/2021 at 12:47 AM, reevesr19 said:
I will be looking for a better HT in the next few months and hope to keep it's cost in the $ 100 to $ 180 range. It needs to have a removeable antenna so I can put what I want on it for performance, needs to come close or match the 5 watt output ( my uv-5x's are hitting 4.9 ) and not be a all on one chip design.
There are some solid recommendations for used commercial grade radios if you want to go that route. I have primarily Kenwood radios so I'll confine my comments to them.
The ones I have and feel they work good are the TK-370G, TK-3140, TK-3170, TK-3173, TK3212 and the TK-3180. The radios are either 4 or 5 watt radios. There is little difference between a 4 and 5 watt radio range wise. They all can do repeaters, split tones, wide and narrow band FM, high and low power, scan and so on.
The one I've been carrying around for a while now is the TK-3170. I just like how it works, it's small enough to fit in a shirt pocket, light with the Lithium Ion battery packs, and uses all the same programming cables, speaker microphones, antennas and other accessories the cheap Chinese radios use, which is the Kenwood dual prong "K type" connector. The TK-3173 is the same radio but includes trunking, which you don't need for GMRS anyway.
http://www.swscomm.com/kenwood/TK-2140_3140.pdf
http://www.swscomm.com/kenwood/TK-2170_3170.pdf
http://www.swscomm.com/kenwood/TK-3173.pdf
http://www.deisradio.com/files/TK-2212-3212 Brochure.pdf
https://kenwoodsub.dealerarena.com/ProductPDFs/10/TK-2180&3180Brochure.pdf
You can find these for sale on eBay frequently. You'll also probably need a new battery pack, antenna and charger base. If you already have the two prong programming cable you're all set on a few of the above. The TK-3140, TK-3180 use a different type of programming cable.
I believe all of the above are Part 95 certified for legal use on GMRS. The software isn't hard to find on line with a bit of searching. Be careful of the exact model "Type" you buy used. These UHF radios come in several different frequency ranges. The Part 95 certified ones are the 450 MHz lower end to 490 MHz to 520 MHz upper end. I have one or more of these specific radios and they all will be great on GMRS. Just one caveat about any commercial radio, they are not front panel programmable. You can set some of the function keys to select things like tones etc. but in general you need to software to do a proper job setting them up.
Oh, these radios can be "pushed" down below the official lower frequency limit, down to at least 440 MHz or lower, so they are usable on the repeater section of the Ham 70cm band for dual licensed people. Now you can legally have one radio to use on GMRS and Ham with zero modifications or special software hacks required.
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18 hours ago, plarkinjr said:
Ya know, a radio could be created which is simple for casual users who never want to touch a computer, and may only really be interested in simplexing with other GMRS users who may or may not be using the same equipment, but at the same time give it the capability to do more advanced things via programming software like:
- Repeaters of same frequencies but different tones
- Repeaters with split tones
- Scan out of band (e..g. 2m/70cm HAMs, Police, Fire, etc)
- DTMFs per channel
- Power level per channel
- etc etc
Such things could be hidden behind an "expert" menu from the keyboard, or even ONLY programmed via computer software (Mac, Linux, Windows, etc).
That being said, @pcradio mentioned "CHIRP is not much better" ... Well, I've got to say it is worlds better than the Wouxun software for KG-935G! While CHIRP has its frustrations, the Wouxun software is absolutely horrendous as far as the channel memory editor is concerned. I have some 10 year old LED Sign software which looks like WindowsXP with menus completely in Chinese, but it is much easier to use than the Wouxun KG-935G software. But there's a wait-list for Wouxuns, so nobody there sees any benefit in fixing/making-usable their programming software.
I've not checked into RT Systems software, but with a proprietary cable, and no trial system that I can see, I'm not sure it is any better than CHIRP. Plus, it does not support some of the weird radios I have (which are supported by CHIRP). Until a radio manufacturer produces quality software to program their under-$200 radios, CHIRP is the way to go. So, not counting RT systems, here's how I see it:
- horrible factory software
- frustrating (but consistent) CHIRP
- wonderful factory software
#1 is the norm, #3 I've never seen. So focusing my effort on #2 (CHIRP) is the forced compromise. It provides a fairly consistent interface across radios, so I don't have to learn the unique design quirks from the various software "engineers" at Baofeng, Retevis, Wouxun, etc. (Why, for example, did Wouxun choose to put the channel label in the 11th column, way over on the far right of the screen, vs CHIRP which puts it in column 2, on the left side of the screen, right next to the frequency, and one hop from the channel number? Why?? WHY??? And "Hello: Copy/Paste" from another program like, I dunno, Excel? Nope, sorry.)
ETA: (I forgot to mention before I hit SEND) It wouldn't seem unreasonable to me at least that a manufacturer couldnt release a "basic" radio for under $100, but sell an add-on "subscription" (if you will) for another $50 to provide great programming software to unlock advanced features and/or long-term support. Missed revenue opportunity on their part I guess.
Selling an "add on" software by the manufacture for their own radios? A company has to make a decision, are they primarily a hardware vendor or a software services provider. Some try to do both and end up doing neither well.
What is being proposed is the business model used by example Motorola, now Kenwood looks like they too are moving in that direction. You pay for the basic software, then again for each additional feature. You can end up paying on a per unit basis too. Now you have to keep track of which radio(s) have what licensed features enabled and so on. Even the code plugs are directly tied to an individual radio by serial number. You simply can't take a code plug for one and directly load it in to another radio identical hardware wise because the enabled features may be different.
If the radio programming software is a for purchase type option, well it had better work and the vendor needs to be quick about fixing bugs. Forget about "feature creep" I want what's there already to "just work", no excuses. One way to kill a great hardware product is crappy to non existent support. I have a low threshold for buggy software and even less for vendor excuses why it's not fixed or have no intention of fixing it, ever.
The danger with any third party software are several.
One most likely the hardware vendor doesn't document the communication protocol nor the code plug content structure. With CHIRP its all done through lucky guess work, reverse engineering and experimentation. No guarantee that a later hardware version won't break to software. Even worse that a bug in the software won't "brick" your radio. A few have had that unfortunate experience.
Second while CHIRP presents a consistent user interface across multiple radios you can loose access to features that are specific to a particular model. In that case you're back to using the hardware vendor's software anyway. Remember CHIRP can only implement what can be reversed engineered, and even then the developer may choose to note it's just experimental so any bugs discovered may never get fixed because they don't have the time, lost interest or just don't have the radio to experiment with any longer. Remember it's free, so what did one expect for zero cost, so there is little motivation for the developer to spend heaps of time on it.
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3 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:
They want to generate a revenue stream that is continuous, and try to tie the operation of features and services to the equipment.
I don't think most hobby folks are going to want to play in that arena, but I've been wrong before.
More companies are going that route. For hobbyists it doesn’t make sense.
Some are figuring out that the hobbyist is the ticket to future business. For example with microprocessor development systems they cost a fortune in the past. Now you can get really cheap development boards and free IDE’s. The idea is once you get somebody, college or university student, familiar with their hardware and software they go on to recommend it once they begin working in their field because they know the products.
I would guess a number of people have recommended radios from the major manufacturers for their work place, or for others personal use, based on their experience using second hand radios purchased for personal use and scamming up the software.
Myself I’ve recommended a number of Kenwood radios because I know what they can do and the software wasn’t hard to find. I wouldn’t mind their new radios, the NX-5200, 5300, 5400 series, but their change in software licensing is a complete show stopper for hobby use. So, for those models I wouldn’t even take one for free. The software licensing model Kenwood has moved to is expensive, restrictive and in general doesn’t fit how I use and program my radios. I have several computers I use, at work - home - traveling, and having the software tied to a particular computer with Internet activation is a deal killer.
The above isn’t just with radio programming software you find this with just about all the CAD software out there too. I use a number for hobby use and they are 10 to 20 year old versions before the companies moved to the same license scheme above or required hardware dongles.
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32 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:
From what I understand you cannot make any changes after the 3 years, and need to renew the license. I figure I'll either have more than 1 moto radio then, or have none. The price per year to maintain 2-4 radios isn't bad, and maybe by then I will have the family running around with radios as well.
For just a few radios that will add up. For hobby use I couldn't justify the cost.
For a business it's a drop in the bucket. That's Motorola's business model. They don't cater to the single user. For a dealer it's like buying toilet paper. Spread the license fee over 100's or radios and the cost is almost nothing.
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20 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:
I'll send you a PM, I don't want MOL mad at me for posting it.
OK. I read it. Not as expensive as I thought. What happens after the initial 3 years ends? You still can legally use the software? If not that sort of sucks. I find I need to make changes time to time, either changing the configuration, buttons, menus and so on. The other is keeping up with the changes to the local repeaters. Talk groups changes mainly on DMR. Others the repeaters simply fail and never seem to get back on the air so off hunting for another one to use. Or new one pops up.
One is never really done programming their radio. Something always needs tweaking or changed.
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54 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:
the long and short, narrowband is required after 2013, you agree to use the wideband entitlement correctly, and will follow all the rules of Part 90 for Narrowband mandate......
At least it was simple and the bare minimum to keep the FCC off their back.
The cable I bought is the bluemax49ers, it's just late (USPS). Cable is minor. The timeframe to do things legitimately is insane though:
3+ Weeks to get an account started
2 days to get an account number assigned
3 days to get them to turn on your LXP access
3 days after narrowband training
3-5 days for purchase to process and be sent to you.
What are your out of pocket expenses so far buying software and the license entitlement ID's?
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4 hours ago, tweiss3 said:
@Lscott Have you managed to program via bluetooth? I tried last night (cable is in route) and didn't have any luck. I'm sure I'm missing something simple, and it probably need to be programmed via cable first, oh well.
Also, completed the Narrowband "training" (15 minute video), but then it now can take up to 3 days to apply to your purchasing account. You would think these computer automated things would move quicker. I have more time in waiting then anything else.
No Bluetooth option for programming with any radio I have. I think the XPR7550's can do it but the XPR6550's and XPR6580's I've got don't support Bluetooth.
I got my cable from the frequently mentioned source, BlueMax49ers. The guy is very easy to deal with and the quality of the cables I got was very good. I spent more than buying some no-name one on eBay but his are guaranteed to work.
What was in that "training" video that required you to spend 15 minutes of your time watching? I probably could have produced the video in 30 seconds. If it's wide-band click this. If it's narrow-band click that. Done.
I need to get the radios out and play with them a bit. I had to think about how to organized the zones since the radios I have only allow 16 memory channels per zone. I had to set them up a bit differently than any other radio I own that has zone support.
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2 hours ago, n4gix said:
I've had my "RT97" for several years, although I've since reprogrammed it for 70cm ham use. I have a 50' telescoping mast and antenna I can deploy in the field to help support our ARES group when needed.
Did you need to re-tune the cavity filters?Somebody else said theirs was tuned rather wide so they could change frequencies without having to mess with the filter tuning. I find it hard to believe it works that good without getting the RX de-sensed because the notch isn't that deep when not tuned narrow enough.
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2 hours ago, tweiss3 said:
Well, for what it's worth, there may be differences between 16 & 2.0, but overall, if you can find it in 16, its the same place in 2.0. The most annoying thing is the lack of cut/past or import features, resulting in mostly building the entire codeplug from scratch. Just made me recheck everything I've used in the past.
My biggest issues is MOL taking forever to give you permissions to do anything, 3 weeks to get an account, 3 days to update account information, "72 hours" to get access to the learning center (past 72 hours, but after calling I get a "should be available tomorrow morning").
Makes you wonder how they manage to get and keep customers.
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15 hours ago, Hans said:
Things certainly got worse but it was pretty wild when we had a license. Then again, I am no fan of Uncle Charlie. Funding and influence always corrupt regulatory agencies. It's unavoidable.
Things got stupid because there was no accountability or meaningful enforcement action.
Years ago I went round and round with a number of people on the “rec.radio.cb” news group. There was a hard core group who had no regard for FCC rules, couldn’t care less who was interfered with etc. Because of the lack of FCC licensing and no real enforcement they felt “entitled” to do whatever they wanted and had no fear of repercussions. A few of them were the most narcissistic people you would have the miss fortune to ever meet.
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17 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:
I hope the 878 CPS has a good import/export function, because I don't want to do the data entry for hundreds, if not thousands, of channels by hand?!?
Yes, the CPS can import and export different parts of the radio’s setup. In fact that’s how you would keep the HT and the mobile version D578 in sync.
When the firmware is updated for one it looks like they do the same for the other. If you’re interested in DMR these are two radios worth looking at. While some might protest they are CCR’s they aren’t that bad. I have the D878UV early model however I don’t use it much at the moment.
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On 10/28/2021 at 10:16 PM, SUPERG900 said:
The Anytone's have always had the capability to change the talk group of a digital channel on the fly - and I use that functionality occasionally. Mostly though, I like to create individual digital channels for each of the talkgroups I commonly use on a particular repeater. This way, I can simply simply use the channel knob of the radio for selecting my most-used talkgroups on the current repeater - and I use 'zones' button to select different digital repeaters. I usually reserve one channel on each digital repeater as a scratch-pad for on-the fly talkgroups that I'm not worried about maintaining.
For analog repeaters - I create a zone for each analog network, and a channel in that zone for each individual repeater.
That’s a very good way to do it on those radios. You have 4000 memory slots on the D878UV for example so why not use them.
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Things on 11m started really going to crap when the FCC dropped the license requirements and effectively quit policing the band.
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3 hours ago, tweiss3 said:
Thanks. That's what I thought I read, but I just wanted to confirm. I just got a message back from the seller that the last codeplug write on the radio was made with 2.0. I had already considered software costs in the purchase price. I guess I'll just start in 2.0 making this codeplug.
I had an XPR6580 I wanted to experiment with on the Ham 33cm band and it had the trunking firmware on it. Somebody had used V2.0 to program it too. I managed to get it back on the old firmware usable with CPS 16, but in the process the “tune” date, the internal hardware calibration, got mucked up. I saved it before doing the down grade but found out there are differences between the two so the original “tune” data file won’t load.
Using the tune data utility I can see the values but not all of them can be adjusted manually. A few of the receiver gain settings can only be adjusted on Motorola’s “auto tune” test station, which I don’t have or access to one. I could send it out for this but I’m not spending $80 to $100+ on a bench fee to adjust the radio. I only paid $45 for it. In the mean time I loaded the tune data from another radio in the one that got mucked up and reset the parameters I could manually adjust to match to original ones where possible. Not perfect but better than nothing.
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29 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:
That's true, however, I've come to the conclusion that any used radio I pick up is getting a new antenna, for the price and guarantee it is the right band antenna/working order, wrap that into the purchase price of the radios when I make my decision to buy.
I did pull the trigger on that 7550e, I also order the CPS last night. Lets see how long it takes for that purchase to process.
I have CPS 16 build 828 for the XPR6550's I have a couple of the VHF and UHF models. The software has the mod's for the wide band FM and radio/code plug password work around. The later is almost necessary when buying used radios since some might be password locked.
I just got a Kenwood TK-3180 yesterday I purchased on eBay last weekend. The radio is the rather rare type-2 which has an official band split of 400 MHz to 470 MHz, perfect for Ham Radio and GMRS. It was $30 including shipping. Normally these sell for $80 to over $100 each.
https://kenwoodsub.dealerarena.com/ProductPDFs/10/TK-2180&3180Brochure.pdf
The radio had the special "passport" trunking firmware loaded and not the normal conventional/trunking one, LTR, so the usual Kenwood radio programming software wouldn't work on it. The radio displayed a message showing the special one that had to be used, which of course I didn't have. I flashed the normal firmware to the radio since I had it. Once that was done I found it was password locked for writing. Fortunately the radio programming software I had is modified to enable all sorts of features even the dealers likely don't have access to. One was removing passwords. All I had to do was enter the radio's serial number and do a write. That cleared all the passwords in the radio and I was able to write my code plug to it and now it's working.
I guess the reason why the price was so cheap was the seller couldn't program the radio either.
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1 minute ago, tweiss3 said:
If you are worried about cost, a brand new antenna from Motorola is $9.95 on the MOL site. Same with the older Vertex Standard stuff, I needed to get a few covers and screws, and saw the VS/MOL antennas were 1/3 the price of ebay versions, and just straight up replaced all 5 that I was going to "live with" for the time being.
The antennas are not super expensive, but making the connector non standard is just another way for Motorola to capture more of the accessory market. It might cost you $9.95 and they have them made in China for $1 each most likely.
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14 hours ago, gman1971 said:
This will not compile, you are missing the declaration of VHF, UHF and 10db_gain.... along with brackets around the (VHF != UHF) if statement...
G.
oops.
float VHF, UHF, 10db_gain;
if (VHF != UHF) {
UHF *= 10db_gain;}
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15 hours ago, tweiss3 said:
Thats unfortunate. It took mine 3 weeks to get approved after multiple chats and an expedite ticket. Ordering from them is interesting too.
I'm debating on pulling the trigger on a 7550e, but not sure just yet.
They're nice radios. Myself I don't like the funky antenna connector. I use my radios at times with external antennas. Having a standard SMA connector is a perk in my book.
The weird antenna connector is just a move by Motorola to capture more money from customers since that's one item that gets frequently broken by careless users. You look on eBay and you can find packs of antennas for Kenwood radios for sale cheap. No so much if at all for Motorola's proprietary ones. I bet Motorola makes a good profit on them.
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7 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:
@Lscott, did you ever get the CPS help you were looking for? I'm just starting to look myself, but even though I got an account, it seems they still lock you out of things.
No. I requested an account but never got the notification. I just found it last night in my junk email folder. Now it's expired.
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1 hour ago, Radioguy7268 said:
You need to use the Kenwood KPG-D6NK software, which should be a free download. However, you can't use the software until you purchase a $100+ License Key which will be specific to a single PC. Once you have purchased the Key, you will need to Authenticate the software on the exact PC that you plan to use.
This is why I'll NEVER purchase one of the new Kenwood radios, new or used. They changed their business model to extract more money out of business customers. For private hobby use it makes no sense at all.
With a license key tied to a specific PC, effectively turning it in to a hardware dongle, if your hard disk dies so does your license. I forget if it was either Kenwood or Motorola, but they told people when your hardware dies or the license file gets screwed up you get to buy a new one.
What might make more sense is installing the software and license on a virtual machine. That way you can keep backup copies of the VM in case of a real hardware failure. Second you can load the VM on any PC that can host the VM environment effectively allowing you to run the software on multiple computers without the necessity of buying multiple licenses. So, for example, you can have the VM on your desktop computer and a laptop for when you travel and need to make last minute changes.
I had several computers running the exact same VM with Microsoft Windows a few years ago. Windows would start, update etc. with zero complaints about multiple copies running or pirated versions. If Microsoft isn't detecting the multiple versions running I doubt Kenwood's software will either.
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On 10/25/2021 at 11:41 PM, wayoverthere said:
No disagreement on the complexity of DMR, though the multi slot capability could make good use of the spectrum, especially if a little more spectrum could be allowed for digital only (wishful thinking, I know).
The other I've messed with a little is P25, which seems really simple as an end user, though I know there's a couple more layers, such as setting up ids. Overall, it doesn't seem too much more complicated than analog with tones, though. Now the price....why is it so expensive? Still an expensive licensing in place? All the equipment priced for public safety budgets? I found a p25 capable icom at a really nice price, but the license to enable p25 was more than 4x the price of the radio.
DMR isn’t that complex to setup. It’s just messy. For a single repeater which supports multiple talk groups the easiest solution is use one memory for each full time talk group using the appropriate color code and time slot. The repeater frequencies, and just about everything else, stays the same. I myself have used 6 or more memory slots in a radio for just one repeater due to all the supported talk groups.
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Each radio model series has its own specific software package. To recommend where to find it we first need to know what model radio.
The installation key typically has the form of xxK44… or xxxK44… where the “X’s” are the version of the software. For example the TK-3170 radios use KPG-101D and the install license key starts with 101K44…. with a string of numbers after the “101K44”. If you’re very lucky you might have the so-called “engineers key” which looks like “101K45….” for the above example.
The engineers key allows you to remove passwords on a radio. If the radio has a write data password set you’ll never be able to reprogram the radio unless you have it or can remove it. I’ve had a few radios purchased used like this. Fortunately I had the means to remove them.
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5 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:
As an admitted Kenwood fanboy, can I open up my two dormant TH-22a’s for MURS?
There are plenty of Kenwood commercial HT’s that cover MURS. Most of the VHF ones work from 136 MHz to 174 MHz. That covers the complete Ham 2M band, MURS, NOAA weather channels, VHF marine and railroad analog. In my collection of HT’s that cover the range are the TK-2000, TK-2160, TK-2360, TK-2140, TK-2170, NX-200. These are all 5W/1W with wide and narrow band FM. The TK-270G officially goes from 150 MHz to 174 MHz but can be pushed down into the Ham band.
None are certified for MURS. Some “might” be legally used since they were certified before MURS was created. This is a very gray area. In any case one has to watch the bandwidth and power levels. There are not many MURS specific radios available.
Through Wall Antenna Connection ??
in Technical Discussion
Posted
I believe some antennas have a DC connection from the radiating element to the shield. Grounding the shield bleeds off static electricity buildup and generates less noise in the signal while protecting the sensitive front end components from failure. You can get huge static voltage build ups even on sunny days just due to a small breeze blowing across the antenna.
I read a story about one Ham who got knocked off his roof after touching his un-grounded antenna, no feed line attached, due to the static voltage on it.
I also know people who will disconnect the coax from all their radios, sticking the ends in glass jars, when thunder storms are moving in to the area.