Lscott
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Posts posted by Lscott
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I'm not 100% sure how I can get their PL. I rolled through every CTCSS tone and keyed up, no repsonse, no squelch tail - so I'm assuminng they're using DCS. There's over 100 of those to roll through - I'll do it when I have time. My understanding is that most repeaters don't retransmit the tone unless the're using an input and privacy tone - but I guess it's possible? Most of the repeaters I see that do that use the same tone for both, so it's worth a shot.
I'm not sure where to look on the FCC website, I'm looking but not finding yet - if you have a link that'd be awesome!
That's not a bad idea, I just wonder if their organization is small enough where the users would just wonder "what's that noise?" and brush it off. I'll probably key up, voice ID and ask them once I find the tone in.
Well I haven’t been that motivated to dig around in the FCC database looking for a possible grandfathered license holder for those frequencies yet.
Your idea of putting another repeater on the same frequency with the same PL tone I’m sure would annoy them. So would simply high jacking it, after all it is on a legal GMRS repeater channel. If the user/owner doesn’t want anybody else on their machine they can contact all parties and inform them as such. When that happens the question becomes under whose operating authority, FCC license holder, can deny general public access. Of course if the repeater is illegally operating most likely it will simply shut down or move to a business frequency.
I was walking around the mall tonight just for some exercise and noticed an HT sitting on top of the push trollies used by the housekeeping staff as I walked by. It looked like your typical basic black commercial Motorola radio. So they are not using some COTS GMRS radios. Those Motorola’s had to be specifically programmed for the frequencies used.
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Oh it can be done I found out. I had a radio which half bricked itself and wouldn't let me "read/write" from the radio anymore. Turns out if you have a special motorola tech software you can rewrite the S/N, the frequency range, and a few other things in the radio. We changed the S/N to 111111111 and it suddenly let us read from the radio again, so we returned it to the labeled SN and haven't had the issue since.
I do put my GMRS/Ham call in the power-on message. This way if I am stopped by a cop or security officer, I can simply turn the radio off and on and show that I am the owner.
So it apparently can be done with Motorola radios, useful info. I have Kenwood. I haven't really looked that hard but none of the radio programming software I can get my hands on allows changing the serial number even with the so-called "engineers" or "dealer" keys. I have forced a radio to a different "market code" something the software says if you get wrong the first time can't be changed, well I did several times on the same radio using the "engineers" key. So much for that.
The problem is Kenwood is disabling the engineers function in the software for the newer radios so even if you had the right key it won't allow you to change certain things. I had to track down a special version of the software for an analog/NXDN radio to unlock the read write password protection a few weeks back for recent radio I got. I was able to write a blank code plug to it thus disabling all password protection. The radio sold real cheap likely because even the dealer that sold it to me couldn't unlock it.
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edit: I'm aware that a business can use FRS, but is it legal for them to use GMRS for business use? Particularly GMRS repeater frequencies? Is it even possible for it to be a grandfathered LMR repeater pair?
I've experienced the same thing. A local mall 4.7 miles line of sight from my house is apparently using GMRS repeater channel 16. The same channel as the repeater I use along with nearly 30 others. The repeater seems to be used by the "housekeeping" staff and uses a different PL tone from the one the local GMRS community uses. After weeks, hours at a time mainly in the evening, I've never heard anybody ID nor does the repeater ID. As suggested it might be an old grandfathered system but somehow I seriously doubt it.
I know where the repeater is located due to a topic mentioned on the Mall's security frequency. Then a couple of seconds later I heard the exact same person calling the Mall's housekeeping staff on the GMRS repeater about the same issue. The security staff use Motorola radios, been there enough times and watched them. At this point I don't know if the "dispatch office", AKA security, has two radios, one for their use and the other for housekeeping or more likely one radio with both frequencies programmed in to them.
So far I don't know what kind of radio is used by the Mall's housekeeping staff. Since its repeater capable it likely either a GMRS radio or a commercial radio programmed with GMRS frequencies setup for repeater operation. Of course somebody could have programmed some CCR's to save money and used them.
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So, short version: for those of you with surplus commercial equipment in your box of goodies, do you know (or have you looked into) what and/or where those radios came from?
The first thing I do when I receive a used radio is read and save to original code plug.
Just about every commercial Kenwood HT radio I've worked with has two areas for storing an internal message, one of which is password protected.
Out of a dozen or so used HT's I got only one had that message blocked filled in. That radio came from a university located in New Jersey based on the name in the message. Also based on a name and phone number in the message it was setup to work in conjunction with a certain company's line of wireless two way emergency call boxes.
I always put my Ham call sign and home address in the internal message block for any code plug I write to a commercial radio with that feature. Additionally if the radio has a LCD display, typical 16 channel radios don't have any, I have my Ham call sign displayed at power up as an added ID feature.
One other feature the radios have is an electronic serial number which can't be erased or changed through any software I've been able to find. The radio programming software lets one read the model number, firmware version and serial number from the radio, even if its password locked. So far I haven't seen a radio where somebody attempted to remove the external serial number tag indicating the radio might be stolen.
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There are some online programs to show you range. As said above height and antenna gain is everything. You can put 50 watts out on your garage roof and not talk as far as 5 watts on a 2500' mountain top.
I agree. I have a Ham Radio buddy that got permission, yes it's possible, several times to use his HT on a commercial jet flight. There was a bit of a pile up when you're talking 500 to 1000 miles radius from 30,000 feet on FM.
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The TK-3170 is a nice radio. I own a few of them.
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I know this thread is a bit old. I think a few people might find the following of interest.
https://radiofreeq.wordpress.com/2016/01/19/militia-radio-frequencies/
Scroll down and look at the third photo in the main body of the article. Then read the caption under it. The FCC may have had good reason for the notice.
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You are changing the parameters of the original question, which was limited to GMRS operator to non-licensed operator.
GMRS licensed operator can communicate with FRS operator - on FRS 'channels' (frequencies).
The post I responded to was:
"No, just as a licensed amateur operator cannot legally communicate with an unlicensed person, neither can a licensed GMRS operator legally communicate with an unlicensed person."
The nature of the "unlicensed person" was not specified in the post so I used the widest definition that is confined to FRS and GMRS services. It's obvious the FRS operators are not directly licensed by the FCC but communications between licensed GMRS operators and the "unlicensed person", A.K.A. FRS operator, is in fact permitted. That was the point. To add a finer point FRS operators who are using their radios are authorized as licensed by rule, so by some measure they are licensed.
While the statement about the amateur operator is correct, everyone MUST have a valid call sign thus licensed, but when extending the analogy to GMRS/FRS, which shares the same simplex frequencies it breaks down.
I think when statements like the quote above are made they should be more qualified. Too often new people get needlessly confused. That's the last thing needed here.
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No, just as a licensed amateur operator cannot legally communicate with an unlicensed person, neither can a licensed GMRS operator legally communicate with an unlicensed person.
So a person using a legal FRS only radio and a licensed GMRS user using a Part 95 certified radio can’t communicate for example? That’s after the FCC changed the frequency assignments so simplex operation was facilitated between the two?
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For the TK-8180 I think you need to download and install the programming software for the radio. It should be the KPG-89D located here. There are other locations to find the software. The latest version is V1.61 I believe. Older ones will likely work too. Just make sure you have the serial install key. Normally most of the packages include one in a text file.
http://rsws.zapto.org/RadioSoftware/Kenwood/
You will also need a programming cable for it too.
Commercial radios are great to use on GMRS but are impossible to setup, or nearly so, without the programming software.
Any used commercial radio you are thinking about buying make sure you can get the correct programming software and cable for it FIRST. If you can't the radio will end up being an expensive paper weight.
- enidpd804, AdmiralCochrane, gman1971 and 1 other
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Does anybody have info on the various Kenwood radios memory file structure? Some of the radios seem to encrypt the contents past the header. On a couple of those it appears a simple “XOR” of the bulk of the file was done. How and where the software figures out the key, looks like a single byte, is save in the file I’m assuming. It doesn’t seem to remain the same if the code plug changes on a given radio model.
I’ve been principally looking at the combo analog/digital models TK-D340 (DMR) and the NX-340U (NXDN) models.
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Well, first are you interested in only new radios or would taking a chance on buying a used one? The answer to that would narrow down the recommendations a bit.
There are a few new models while there is a forest of used commercial grade radios available. Some of those are Part 95 certified so are legal to use. Some people only want FCC part 95 certified equipment. Others are OK with the Part 90, the typical certification for commercial radios. There are by the way some commercial radios certified for both Part 90 and 95.
So far the FCC seems to ignore people using Part 90 only certified radios, but one should not assume that will continue to be the case.
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Hello Jeremy.
I cannot speaker to quality and have no experience with it, but I stumbled across this ham radio this morning. The importer asserts waterproof submerged 3 feet for 3 hours. See the following link: https://www.ruggedradios.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2262
Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM
If you're really interested in this radio I would research it a lot more. Rugged Radios has been known to take cheaper Chinese radios, rebranded the radio and sold them at inflated prices.
Somebody here will likely recognize the original manufacture, if the radio was rebranded, and where you could buy one much cheaper.
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Do not use RG-58 cable at these frequencies for anything other than short runs. You are much better off using RG-8, LMR-400, Beldin 9913 or some type of heliax, typically 1/2 inch or larger, for the run. Also it is strongly advised to use "N" type connectors. You may need an "N" type to a PL-239 adapter for the end going into the back of the radio unless you make a cable with it on the end.
You can check here for coax cables. They may custom manufacture a cable for you.
https://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=344&sort=20a
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Very good question! I meet with a group of guys at the Rams Horn Thursday night around 6:30 PM on Middle Belt Road south of Joy Road for coffee, at least when the governor let the restaurants open. We're all at least Ham Radio people. Whenever I'm out that way I try that GMRS repeater. So far nothing.
The Troy 575 machine, close to I-75 and 16 mile road, works and there are around 30 some people who have requested access to it so far. A regular net meeting is being organized for Sunday nights at 7 PM
https://mygmrs.com/repeater/3562
Also there is what I believe to be a GMRS repeater illegally being used by the housekeeping staff at the Lakeside Mall. This might be an old system grandfathered in by the FCC, but I haven't found any license to verify this.
For a while now I’ve been picking up sporadic communications on the Troy Repeater’s output frequency from some maintenance staff, at the time the source was unknown. I’m sure this is the Lakeside Mall's housekeeping staff since I heard a call about a hand sanitizer station that needed a battery replacement on the mall’s security frequency. Tthen a second or so later I heard the same exact guy calling the mall’s maintenance staff on FRS/GMRS channel 16, the same channel the Troy repeater uses. I've never heard anybody ID nor a repeater ID. I found the PL toned used is 186.2 Hz. This is a different tone from the one used by the Troy 575 repeater.
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I general VHF works better under the conditions you describe. The radio service that works on VHF is MURS. It is a license free radio service. The limitation you will find are the radios are restricted to no more than 2 watts of power.
http://www.firestik.com/Tech_Docs/murs.htm
https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/multi-use-radio-service-murs
Some typical MURS radios.
https://baofengtech.com/product/murs-v1/
https://bettersaferadio.com/shop/two-way-radios/tera-tr-505-dual-band-gmrs-murs-handheld/
A note about the FRS radios. If they are more than a few years old they were likely manufactured to work under the old rules which limits the power to 1/2 watt. The newer radios are allowed up to 2 watts on (most) of channels. Under GMRS rules you can generally run higher power, which may not be that great of an advantage at the higher frequencies used. The following link shows the channels, bandwidth and power allowed by either FRS or GMRS radios. GMRS by the way requires a license while FRS does not. New FRS radio do not have the means to access the additional frequencies for repeater access per the FCC rules. Only GMRS radios are allowed to use those frequencies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Mobile_Radio_Service
If you have GMRS repeaters in the area you can access where you plan to operate then GMRS would be a better choice in that case.
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Well first there are no "Ham Radios" that are also certified for GMRS in spit of what you may read on various web sites.
There are many Part 90 commercial radios, and some even include Part 95 certification, that are designed and tested for outdoors operation so are weather proof, rain - dust etc. Many of those radios can be programmed to operate over part or the full Ham 70cm band.
I have the following models from Kenwood. There are others from Motorola along with other major manufactures.
TK-370G
TK-3170
http://www.swscomm.com/kenwood/TK-2170_3170.pdf
TK-3140
https://www.ameradio.com/doc/Kenwood_TK2140_3140.pdf
Be careful of the model type. Look at the specifications because the UHF radios come in several frequency ranges. For GMRS you want to cover at least the 460 MHz to 470 MHz range. A few models will cover 400 MHz to 470 MHz which is perfect for Ham and GMRS. I have successfully programmed the above models down to about 440 MHz which covers the repeater and most of the simplex section of the Ham 70cm band per the ARRL published band plans. The software will put up a warning window about the out of band frequency but will accept it anyway when you click OK.
https://www.icomamerica.com/en/amateur/amateurtools/US-Amateur-Band-Plan-10-2017.pdf
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If you want a radio you can depend on in an emergency I would not recommend any of the cheap Chinese radios. The really cheap ones have no real resistance to drops, rain, dust etc. I dropped a cheap BTECH tri-band radio on a cement floor. The speaker died. Yeah it’s ok for a glove box radio or cheap scanner on the desk but it won’t hold up to hard use.
I have a collection of Kenwood, commercial grade, hand held radios I purchased used. Some had busted cases from being dropped, dirt packed into the speaker grill from being used extensively outdoors etc. when I got them. The radios still worked after cleaning them up and replacing the busted case parts. They were designed and tested for that kind of usage. You get what you pay for.
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Either split (403-470 or 450-512) will cover GMRS, but the lower split will also cover ham and quite a bit of business and public safety.
They are NOT Part 95 certified, old or new rules.
The Kenwood HT's I have definitely are Part 95 certified, under the old rules, and retains the certification under the new rules. I don't know about all of their models, but one would have to look up the FCC ID to be sure about the Part 95 certification.
TK-370G
TK-3170
TK-3140
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are there any ramifications for licensees using any of these radios if they crack down at some point in the future?
I think in general that by itself is a worthwhile question. If a radio was purchased and was “certified” at the time but later the FCC pulled the certification is that radio still legal to use? I would say any radios sold after the certification was pulled are not legal. However how would a user of a purchased radio would know if the certification was pulled after their purchase and as a user are they under any legal obligation to periodically check?
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There are no type accepted radios that can talk on GMRS, FRS and HAM. You could pick up a Part 90 radio and program what is needed.
True. Any radio that will work in the above situation will likely be a commercial radio.
Try looking for a Kenwood TK-370G-1, 128 channels, TK-3170, 128 channels or a TK-3140, 250 channels. These are 1 to 4 watt switchable hand held radios, and can be programmed to do wide or narrow band FM on a per channel basis. All of these are Part 95 certified. The radio I normally use is the 370G-1.
https://5.imimg.com/data5/MT/AL/MY-2136226/tk-3170-handheld-portable-walkie-talkie.pdf
https://www.ameradio.com/doc/Kenwood_TK2140_3140.pdf
While the official lower frequency limit is 450MHz for the models that cover the GMRS frequencies but I have programmed them down close to 440MHz in the Ham band. The software pops up a warning window every time you try to enter the out of band frequencies but will accept it when you click OK. The radios will work a few percent outside of the official range. Most of the Ham simplex channels and repeaters are located between 440 MHz and 450 MHz per the ARRL band plans anyway.
The main point with these kind of radios is there are I means to front panel program them and nothing like a VFO on a Ham only type radio. What I did on mine is program a sequence of channels with frequencies like 446.000, 446.025, 446.050 etc. The channel names were 446-000, 446-025, 446-050 etc. This gives a fair simulation of a VFO with a 25KHz step size which is pretty standard on 70cm.
I think most Hams have their radios programmed for repeater access with a few simplex channels used by a local groups.
I’ve recommended the aboveKenwood radios because that’s what I have. There are other very good radios from Motorola and others that members can recommend too.
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This is the closest one to me.
https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/details.php?state_id=26&ID=390
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Or here is a completely different Option, Start your own repeater, and link it to the MYGMRS network. Then you can connect to one of the Major Hubs and communicate with those hubs as you wish, it might actually start to draw in more attention to GMRS in your area and then your local usage may increase which will help with the Crickets...
Or simply get your Ham license and put up a DMR or D-Star digital repeater. These system are typically linked world wide.
https://www.raqi.ca/~ve2rae/dmr/Amateur_Radio_Guide_to_DMR.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-STAR
Some analog Ham repeaters also support Echolink or IRLP for example.
GMRS repeaters and LMR
in General Discussion
Posted
Interesting suggestion.
I’ve talked to the admin for the repeater our local group uses. Yeah, he has heard the occasional chatter too but had no idea where it originated from. Now he knows.
So far there really hasn’t been any co-channel interference to speak of. I’m not interested, and doubt anybody else is, being the “radio cop”. So until there is a problem will likely leave things as is. At least now IF a problem arises the admin has a good idea where to look.
Anyway between the mall security and housekeeping monitoring their communications prove entertaining at times. When the weather is very cold, crummy out, bored or between normal gym visits I go to the mall and walk for an hour or two with the UHF radio inside the coat and a small D-Ring ear phone with a PTT lapel mic. I don’t want to make it obvious what I’m doing. It’s a large mall with two levels where you frequently see a significant number of people doing the same thing. If something is going on out of the ordinary I head that way to check it out.