Lscott
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Posts posted by Lscott
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You can try plugging numbers in to the calculator at the site below.
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It seems that www.buytwowayradios.com claims it is not radio on chip.
""Classic" Radio Circuitry. One of the big reasons that there are so many low priced radios available is that there single microchips available that control almost all radio features. This is great if you're looking to keep costs down, but there's a reason that popular business radio brands don't use them: they compromise quality for price. If we were going to call our radio "Business Quality" it needed to be built like a business radio - inside and out."
That could be the case. You can see the FCC data on the radio at this site below:
The FCC certification grant is there. More of interest you can find internal photos of the radio. After looking I didn’t see the typical radio-a-chip device, which seems to be the favorite used in the cheap Chinese radios, on the circuit boards. I didn’t try to look up the chip numbers so the manufacturer could still be using a different one, or a customized version.
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I wouldn't mind buying the Wouxuns though, since I believe they are not a "radio on chip" design, so they should receive better than radios with the radio on chip design.
If you can find the detailed specifications for the radio look at the receiver section. If the type is stated as “direct conversion” the odds are very high it’s a cheap “radio on a chip” type design.
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You're right. The protesters filed a complaint with the FCC about interrupting the cellular network. The Association I was with filed in support of the MUNI stating it wasn't a public network that was shut down. MUNI had installed an inbuilding repeater network that carried the cell carriers. They shut down their system which did not affect the service normally available from the commercial services. The FCC agreed, MUNI could turn their system off at any time.
Interesting point about who owns the system and has the right to shut it down. One has to wonder where else kill switches are installed and who has their finger on the button.
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The San Francisco Bay area had several protests about 10 years ago when the fares were raised on their subway system that were organized and coordinated using text messages between cell phones.
I think that was the time where the government shut down cell phone service for several hours?
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The San Francisco Bay area had several protests about 10 years ago when the fares were raised on their subway system that were organized and coordinated using text messages between cell phones.
I think that was the time where the government shut down cell phone service for several hours?
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Interesting juxtaposition. It seems obvious both groups are using electronic communications. From text messaging on up. Where I would expect to see a clear difference is in the level of the planning.
The protesters tend to be ad-hoc groups, perhaps started by some organized core, but generally attracting most participants at the last minute.
On the other hand, the prepper/militia groups seem to better organized, tend to plan, and meet regularly. So, I would guess thoseorganizations would have more sophisticated equipment, be better trained to use it and have better included "security" in their plans.
For quickly planed events, or just a spontaneous group gathering, it's likely true.
I agree with the comment for the more organized groups. The frequencies used I doubt would change that much, would have to reprogram a lot of radios which isn't practical when people need to be deployed quickly. What would be hard is figuring out their "com sec" protocols. That can be quickly changed by just handing out the radios with a sheet listing the special codes used at the last minute.
With that said there are likely elements who are technically competent, various radio hobby orientated individuals, who could show up with the appropriate equipment and have no affiliation to any organized group. As pointed out the UV-5R is readily available and still very cheap. It wouldn't be a budget buster for somebody to keep a handful of these at the ready, per-programmed, show up at the event and pass them out to selected people.
The positive point is those radios don't use any form of voice encryption or scrambling. So using a scanning type radio, likely easier done with an SDR dongle which can watch a wide chunk of spectrum, so when strong pips shows up zero in and see what can be heard. Might get lucky.
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The UV-5R is still widely available, and still cheap.
https://www.amazon.com/BaoFeng-UV-5R-Dual-Radio-Black/dp/B007H4VT7A
People are cheap. I guess if you wanted a radio for a specific use and have no interest in radio as a hobby you would buy the cheapest thing that does the job. The strange thing is these radios are cheaper than the bubble pack FRS radios, in a dollar per radio sense, in most cases.
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Looks like a nice radio. What I like about it is the receiver is a true superheterodyne design. I haven't been impressed with the performance of the cheaper "radio on a chip" types that all seem to use the ubiquitous RDA1846S, or some variant of it. You get what you pay for.
The D878-UV analog/DMR radio, which isn't cheap, I think uses the chip but seems to perform better than I would expect. I think the design uses a tracking filter on the receiver front end to help eliminate the nasty image responses you get with the radio on a chip design.
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I got "back" into GMRS when the FCC changed the fee to something more reasonable and the extended the license term to 10 years. I was licensed before and let it expire, 5 year license term and around $100 was a bit much. Now if I ever need to keep in contact with a family member all I have to do is hand them a programed radio and some simple instructions.
I also have some friends who so far have not been licensed for Ham radio, due to COVID-19 no test sessions or too busy to study for the Ham test, but filling out a form and paying the $70 was a easy. GMRS is the only way I can talk to them by radio currently.
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The issue you'll likely run into is that they are probably using whatever frequencies that come with the radios, or using random frequencies that they can program from the face. Thus they can have stored frequencies, but also tune into whatever frequency they wish when they need to talk. Likewise I'm sure they are using the scrambler function so police dont try to listen in.
The first point is one of the reasons why the FCC started clamping down on the cheap Chinese radios. I had a buddy that was fooling around like that with one. I got him to test for and received his Ham Tech Class license. He's having a lot of fun now, getting into the digital voice modes and hot spots.
I'm only aware of a few radios older radios that have any kind of scrambler function. Many of the older FRS radios used simple voice inversion. I believe the FCC put an end to that with the rule revisions in 2017 which became effective in 2018. I know of several current higher end Chinese radios that will do digital encryption since they are both analog and digital (DMR). Several of the older Kenwood LMR analog radios have either built in simple voice inversion or the user can install a more advanced voice encryption module. I have a few of those old radios, used off of eBay of course without that option. You wouldn't believe what those boards cost. I checked in case I ever ended up with a used radio that had one installed. You never know.
https://www.ameradio.com/product/512172/description.html (Just one of the several types they sell)
The PDF files have some interesting info on the modules.
On your last point that does bring up another question. Has anybody seen what kind of radios are being used? Apparently the link in my first post seems to show the cheap UV-5R is widely used. The article is an old one so I would guess some other make and model has taken its place.
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Just a caution to be civil here. This thread has the potential to get political fast, and that's not okay here. For casual listening to the protesters, I have no issue with sharing that information. I do have a problem with using that information for nefarious purposes, however. Just like how it's okay to share information for monitoring police and the military within the confines of the law, but once you try to use it for nefarious purposes that goes out the window and becomes a problem here.
The point is well taken. The info is just for general information and monitoring. After seeing photos of people carrying around what is obviously two-way radios I got curious if anybody happened to pick up the communications. There were a few protests by me and all I heard were comments by the mall security guards since some of the protesters had used it for parking.
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I’ve noted more protesters are carrying two-way radios. Anybody have an idea what frequencies seem to be the favorite ones used? The Baofeng UV-5R looks looks it’s the go to radio recommend by many prepper and militia groups. Poor choice IMO.
https://radiofreeq.wordpress.com/2016/01/19/militia-radio-frequencies/
I’m guessing most of the radios are the cheap Chinese ones since you program them for operation outside of the Hams bands with requiring modifications. They can be easily programmed for the public service frequencies which likely accounts for the reports of police radio communications being jammed in some cases.
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I'm not sure if any of you ever got a communications license for a business before, but it is really expensive and time consuming. I charge customers around $3,000 per site, for a single frequency, and I'm not even the final coordinator. They charge as much as another $500 per application.
I have seen applications take months... even beyond a year in some cases, if the FCC asks for changes or amendments in order to come into compliance.
And you can't legally operate until the license is approved. That means all of the engineering documents are submitted, surveys are submitted, etc. You could spend $10,000-$15,000 for a small, local commercial radio system for just one frequency and a few radios. Many businesses find it much easier and cheaper to stick to free services like FRS and MURS for that very reason.
Humm... That makes all the difference. Given the costs you mention it does explain why businesses are jumping on the free radio services. I knew there were some costs but had no idea it was that expensive.
Given the numbers above isn’t the likely outcome FRS and MURS will become primarily an unlicensed business radio service?
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That is not exactly the case. While licenses can only be issued to individuals, there is no prohibition against the use of GMRS for business purposes. If you had a business and each of your employees had a license, you would be perfectly legal.
I should have been more specific. FCC will not issue a new GMRS license to a business. If the owner and his employees have their own that’s OK as you correctly pointed out. Then each person can use the service under their individual license of course.
What I was trying to get across if enough businesses end up using MURS that would likely crowd out those who want to use it for personal use. There are only 5 channels after all. If a business really needs radio communications I think there are better choices, such as getting licensed and one or more frequencies assigned for their use by the FCC.
Around me there are a significant number of businesses using FRS radios, which seems to be on the increase. Mostly the old 1/2 watts models. Fortunately those don’t travel that far. The newer radios at 2 watts are more of a problem.
Given that MURS allows up to 2 watts it won’t take many frequent users to occupy those 5 channels, and for some distance as well. Which gets me back to the topic of just how popular is MURS? From some of the posts, and my monitoring in my area, it hasn’t caught on with that many users yet.
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@Lscott... There is a Hobby lobby near my house that was/is using MURS channels. I can hear them at my house, 11+ miles away. No way are they running legit power or equipment. Many businesses are doing the same thing on the FRS/GMRS frequencies around me, too.
It's mind-blowing that the mall has an ERP of 70 watts. What on earth could they need that kind of power for? Around here, I can talk 10+ miles, full quiet with 2 watts on a 50' mast.
Exactly my point!
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Can the TK-805 be used for ham frequencies, in paticular 444.300mhz?
Are there any other Kenwood LMR radios that can?
Oops pasted in the wrong link for the Kenwood brochure with the radio info. This should be the right one.
http://www.lauttamus.com/_pdf/TwoWayRadio/Kenwood/tk-270g-370g.pdf
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Can the TK-805 be used for ham frequencies, in paticular 444.300mhz?
Are there any other Kenwood LMR radios that can?
In the way of hand held radios I've used the TK-370-K, TK-370G-1 and the TK-3160.
Generally the 450 MHz to 470 MHz frequency split versions can go outside of the official range by 10 MHz or so. My favorite is the TK-370G-1 model. By the way it's also Part 95 certified so there is no question it's legal to use on GMRS. It's found on Ebay for a reasonable price if you look carefully. Batteries and antennas are readily available if the one you want doesn't have it. It can use the cheap Baofeng type speaker mics, head sets, antennas (yes they use the reverse SMA type on these radios just like the Chinese) and programming cable.
https://forums.mygmrs.com/topic/2022-kenwood-lmr-for-ham/
I've also had good luck with the TK-270G-1 VHF version for 2 meters.
Both radios are bigger than most of the newer compact radios, heavier but built like a tank. If you get one be sure you get a charger with it if not look for the KSC-16.
I've had good luck finding the programming software for it, KPG-56D. Forget using Chirp. I've never had a version of it that didn't mess up trying to enter frequencies in to it for the "G" versions. For the simple TK-370-K it seems to work OK.
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IMO business use should be prohibited. That's done for GMRS currently. There should be plenty of UHF business exclusive frequencies available for licensed use. With only 5 MURS channels it won't take much business traffic to make them unattractive for private individual voice communications. If businesses say that UHF is too congested for licensed UHF frequency and that's why they use MURS on VHF perhaps the crap below is one reason.
I just can't understand why a business like a shopping mall needs to run a 35 watt repeater. It's only used by the mall security detail.
https://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/licenseFreqSum.jsp?licKey=3354643
I'm about 5 miles away per Google Maps and I pick them up clear as a bell using a simple HT on a table top in my house. Does everybody in a 5 plus mile radius really needs to hear them chasing shoplifters out the door and through the parking lot?
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It seems to be a shame MURS doesn’t get more use by private individuals. You get to run 2 watts, like FRS which also doesn’t require a license, and external antennas which are not allowed on FRS. In fact any legal FRS certified radio the antennas can’t be removed.
I’ve run across dual band mobile antennas specifically tuned for MURS and GMRS. Used with a cheap duplexer one can operate a MURS radio and a GMRS radio, if you’re licensed. The radios can be operated one at a time or at the same time with the duplexer providing the isolation between the radios. The duplexers are cheap costing as little as $30 not counting adapters and patch cables.
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I have a BTECH GMRS-V1, I was just at a national park where my wife and I did not have cell reception and we get separated, it would have been really nice if the wifey, wifey had a FCC certified GMRS radio. I don't foresee this happening a LOT, I just need something as small (light) as possible and not a ton of money. Any suggestions? Oh, and I really don't need two more, just one. If they come in a pair, so be it, but that isn't a requirement.
I'll guess the usual suspects are about as light and cheap you'll find, GMRS-VI and the TR-505G.
https://powerwerx.com/tera-tr505-gmrs-recreational-handheld-radio
The BTECH you already have. I would suggest you just get anther one, they're fairly cheap. That way all the accessories are interchangeable, external speaker microphones, antennas, battery packs, mobile battery eliminators, programming cable etc.
Then you only have to deal with one programming cable and software. You can make one code plug, radio memory file, and use it on both radios unchanged. Trying to keep two different radio's code plugs compatible is a bit of a pain. Been there done that many times.
Finally you only need to learn one radio, not two, and the various menu items and settings. You also don't have to worry about which radio you grabbed and trying to remember how to use it later if that's not the usual one you carry around.
On the last point I typically keep all my radio manuals in PDF format and loaded on the smart phone. If I need to use a feature I can't remember to access or setup the manual is right there.
- fremont, Mikeam, Elkhunter521 and 1 other
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Other than a few local businesses, seldom heard, I almost never hear the frequencies used for voice communications by private individuals. There are a number of old Part 90 radios that predate the creation of MURS so they could be used, grandfathered in, and a number of new radios that are reasonably priced and Part 95 certified for it.
So the question is just how many people really use it other than businesses or for a wireless intercom/data applications?
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I bought two of them for use with bicycle riding. When I receive them I will let you know what I think. My girlfriend just got license yesterday.
If you do a lot of bike riding a good mobile bike setup could be in order.
https://www.dxzone.com/catalog/Operating_Modes/Mobile/Bicycle/
A lot of examples can be found from simple setups to the complex with batteries, solar panels and power amps.
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I agree but I needed to get the repeater channels in and working which Chirp (based on a ham friend having limited time to help) and that did work but I have the software recommended above found and will order it. Question does the Kenwood software allow you to set the default volume mine starts on power up at 8 would prefer 3? Thanks
If it is configurable the Kenwood software will let you change it. I think on some of my portables I have that option in one of the menu tabs.
The reason why it is an option is so a user doesn’t accidentally turn the volume control all the way down thus missing messages. Setting a min volume level prevents that from happening. With a radio hanging on a belt its easy twist the volume knob and not realize it. At least for the channel selector it has detents so that’s less likely to happen.
My Range Experience, Looking for Input
in General Discussion
Posted
You might want to try using a different HT. It’s shocking how deaf some HT radio’s receivers are. Particularly the cheap ones.