overrulecaratmutt

I found a YouTube video on configuring the VX-231. According to Vertex
From January 1st in 2013, if the USA version is used for the radio programming in the following frequency range, the CE programmer automatically/forcedly programs the radio with 12.5 kHz width. In addition, once the USA version is used for programming (even the programmer was used before that date), the radio is marked electrically in the radio memory that the radio is sold/used for the USA (NA) market, and this marking cannot be erased.
 
However, that same announcement also says there is a way to reset the radio:
The software tool is “Wide_Band_Recovery_Tool_1_00”. Located via VSOL > Resource Center > Technical Information > General Information.
 
So far I have been able to locate the international version of the programming software for the VX-264. But not the Wide_Band recovery software.  I have also read that even with the recovery software, it must be used with a genuine Vertex FIF-12 cable ($150).
 
I have already bought a VX-264 and BlueMax49ers cable on eBay, due to arrive Saturday. So, I will report back on what happens when I try to re-program the radio.
 
In the meantime, any tips/pointers most welcomed.

Thanks for the clarification @kb2ztx! Sounds like the Larsen NMOKHFUD is still the way to go then.
ocm

Update:  Thanks to @Radioguy7268 my first VX-264 is on the air in wide-band mode.
 
Some notes for those who may follow...
My Vertex Standard branded VX-264 with firmware 2.07 just arrived today and I used the Motorola CS150 v5.01 international version software to program it.
 
To switch the radio to accept wide-band channel settings I used the Wide_Band_Recovery_Tool software v1.03. (This is not available from Motorola but, thanks to Radioguy7268, I can share a copy with anyone who needs it.)  NOTE: with the VX-261/264 radios you must use v1.03,  v1.02 does not support them.
 
I did not use, though I have ordered one, the FIF-12 programming adapter. Instead, I used the <$20 CT-106p cable from BlueMax49ers. 
 
Extras: I do not own any windows machines so I used a Win-7 VM in VirtualBox for the wide-band recovery and programming. Also, as my MacBook only has USB-C ports, I used a USB-A to USB-C adapter.
 
So far I am very pleased with the radio and find it almost ideal suited for CERT type applications.

Thanks... Bit the bullet and ordered:
FIF-12A - Motorola Vertex Standard USB PROGRAM CABLE PC I/F AAJ23X501 1 @ $105.03
CT-106 - Motorola Vertex Standard Programming Cable AAD68X501 1 @ $29.25
 
According to Wisscom the CT-106 is required to connect the FIF-12A to the VX-264.
 
BTW, v1.03 of the recovery tool is online at communications.support in this thread. However, attachments cannot be accessed until after some probationary period and some minimal number of posts, so I can't download it, yet.

For all of you that have rattled on about the 'cost' of putting up a GMRS repeater as an excuse.... We bought the TOWER SITE ours is on for 48K. So your few grand for an antenna and repeater don't hold water.  Mind you they are not the ONLY radios on the tower.  But crying about the cost of a repeater, antenna and line sort of falls on deaf ears for me.  Spend 50K plus before you can even have somewhere to plug in the repeater and then we can talk. 
That being said. 
GMRS is NOT ham... it is a short form of private LMR.  And you can have "closed"  ham repeaters that are club only if you desire to do that.  And you can require the payment of dues for entry into a club to get access to a ham repeater.  The difference with GMRS and HAM is that with GMRS, you can do the same thing,  BUT you can only take in enough money to support and maintain the GMRS system.  It can't be for profit.  And it can't go for club fee's or other nonrepeater costs. 
So my take is this.... it is YOUR repeater.  You can choose to allow all comers, or you can choose to have it remain private and only used by you and your family.  If you choose to accept donations... great.  Electric costs money... tower site insurance costs money,, fixing stuff costs money... but while we would never refuse to take a donation,,, we will not ask for them either. 
Lets break down some REAL costs.
Site 48K... rewire site 10K, monthly cost of ownership due to electrical and reaccuring stuff like taxes $200 - $400
TWO MTR uhf repeaters 800 each.  4 port combiner new cost, 8K per port.  600 feet of 7/8 hard line at 2 bucks a foot.
Receive multicoupler for RX and window filter  $3k new.  Two DB-420 antennas (one TX one RX) 1.2K each new.
 I don't want to HEAR what it cost you.  I don't much care... We are hosting TWO fully public GMRS repeaters which will be 3 total as soon as I get time to set down and repair the TK-850 Kenwood and program it.  Then it will be 3 open repeaters. 
 
Tower is 240 feet tall.  GMRS repeaters talk 3 counties away in most directions to a mobile with a reasonable antenna.
When you spend that sort of jack and put forward that sort of effort, let me know and I will listen to how expensive it all is.  Until then STOP hiding behind the cost of it.  If you don't want to share, don't.  There is ZERO requirement to do so.  If you want to put up a repeater that is closed,, do it... but remember that if you are holding others back from having a repeater, because you happen to be able to cover 9 to 12 counties, don't.
Will we be tying up 3 of the 8 repeater pairs,,, in a sense, yes.  But they are open to ALL.  And we have only irritated ONE person.  He runs some sort of GMRS business.  And the fact I am interleaved on his pairs, and stomp his coverage in the dirt with a single site where his crap is from here to there and back again and he STILL don't have the overall footprint we have.  I honestly don't care if I am killing his pay to play GMRS business.  And YES it's a business with an OHIO issued business license for GMRS.  If you are reading this... you know WHO you are and who I am.... sorry but you don't get to claim all the freqs for your business and then be mad when someone comes in with a better system and allows folks on it for free.
 

Okay,
I’ll bite here.  I own a repeater (Rugged 575) in Naperville, IL at 300' receive / 250’ transmit.  It’s on a commercial site with other UHF and VHF radio systems as well.  Not only have I spent nearly 5 figures setting this up correctly but I monitor it as if it was my baby, cuz, you know, it *IS* my baby.  I built it with no financial help from anyone else.  Of course there was other help I received by LOTS of other commercial repeater owners (Those of you that are reading know who you are) as I’ve come a long way in the last year and some change here.  I have my repeater system set up for several different private family usage cases and I also have a tone for public which I closely monitor as well and others that are out there do use it.
 
As a repeater owner I’m super happy to turn my radio on and hear other people using it.  As a matter of fact just yesterday some other licensed GMRS users were using my repeater and I needed to use it with my wife as I was at the grocery store and I broke in and said, “hang tight guys, I need to talk to my wife for a minute.  I’ll let you know when I’m done”.  Anyways, I flipped to our tone, talked with her about the particulars, then went back to the public side and said “Carry on guys!  Glad to hear you out there using the machine”.
 
That being said, mine is set to “Ask permission” as well because as others have mentioned, I want to know who is using it to verify their license and location because it’s my system and it’s my responsibility to make sure it’s up to par on the commercial shared site.  I have sent an email back to EVERY! SINGLE! PERSON! As well welcoming them with the tones to use it!  I haven’t had the need (yet) to ever reject anyone from using my repeater but I still keep a tab on who has access to it as in my opinion, it’s my responsibility to do so.
 
Not only that, but I have my custom verbiage I send back with every request as well stating that this is a family repeater as well and to aid to traffic on the other PL tone.  Heck, I’ll paste what I send you can see where we are coming from with this:
 
“The tone for my repeater is XXXX (left blank) (N – normal, not inverted).
 
When you key up for the first time please identify yourself using your call sign and call for ROB.  I am regulating who is using my repeater as it is being used for my family as well.
 
I have received an exceeding amount of requests to use my repeater.  Originally this was set up for family only use but seeing as the range is far better than expected, I have opened it up on an as-requested basis to any licensed GMRS operator.  PLEASE NOTE:  ALL TRAFFIC MUST YIELD TO MY FAMILY.  The tone for public use is different than family so if you see your radio lighting up receiving on 462.575 but no audio is coming through on your radio it's because my family is talking so please do not key up until that traffic has cleared.
 
Thanks and I hope to hear you on the air!”
 
 
That being said, sometimes users don’t understand what a multi-table is either so I will say this too:  When you first use a new repeater you should ALWAYS call out for a radio check IMO because you don’t know how that repeater is set up and should NEVER assume anything!  I was in Iowa once and I made contact to the owner on the traveler tone (I was travelling) and he told me that it’s linked to another repeater in California!  NONE of this information was posted on mygmrs.com and upon googling I couldn’t even find it either!!!  It was good to know that I was keying multiple machines too and me and the owner had a nice long 30 minute conversation and he was glad I keyed up and shouted out!
 
To sum up further as a repeater owner:  *MOST*, but not *ALL* repeater owners don’t mind you using their machine I’ve found.  Now I’m in the Midwest mind you, so again, no assumptions would be made for other machines that I’ve never used, but around here most repeater owners are very happy to have you on their machine and it brings a great smile to their face to know that they are serving the public with a reliable communication system and growing the hobby as well!
 
Remember that GMRS isn’t HAM and HAM isn’t GMRS.  A *LOT* of people out there want GMRS for family use under one license and that’s what I’m doing but I’ve decided to open it up to the public as well as the coverage is fairly decent.  I looked at getting a business license and could have easily done it too but I like the idea of being able to chat with my family *AND* other GMRS users so here we are!
 
Thanks!

Regardless, this whole ask for permission thing seems flawed. This isn't a business radio license.
 
You've put up a repeater on a limited shared resource (only 8 pairs) and then expect people to catch you on the air (without knowing your schedule) so they can ask if they can use it? That makes as much sense as having somebody wait at a toll booth until the attendant decides to show up for work.
 
Suppose somebody takes the time to finally catch you on the air and ask. What exactly is accomplished? Does it satisfy the King? Does the King approve or will the King go have to chase a baofeng on vox that's been strapped to an ice cream truck because the King behaved like an Oaf? Let's be honest here. The only thing this permission thing is doing is feeding an ego.

I would agree ham radio can probably be safely classified as a hobby. But, I would not make the same statement about GMRS. Yes, for some GMRS is a hobby. But, as @wayoverthere notes, probably a greater percentage of MyGMRS members than of the general GMRS population fit that description. 
 
Look at the history and licensing to get a feel for what GMRS is. It's roots were as a business service, and those early licenses are still grand-fathered in, and business use is still perfectly legal on GMRS. Licensing is by family unit, not individuals. This encourages use of GMRS as a practical communications tool, rather than as a hobby.  Another point of comparison is repeaters. GMRS repeaters are limited to 8 frequency pairs, have no coordinating body, and commonly share frequencies using PL, etc. to control access. GMRS repeaters tend to be used for short, task oriented communications and less for rag chewing. So, sharing channels works well. Ham radio, with frequency coordinators, etc. seeks to limit the number of repeaters in an area to avoid interference.
 
There are many other differences, but I think I have covered the main points.  But, I would add one more thing. Where is it written that either as a hobby, or a personal communications tool, that getting people interested in two-way radio is, or even should be, a commonly agreed upon or shared objective?  I think that is an admirable goal. But, I would also not fault someone who did not share that goal.

The responses don't surprise me. Seems counter productive towards getting people interested in a radio hobby.
 
You want to talk money, we're currently burning in a brand new hytera ip addressable repeater going up with a DB420 antenna. Easily over $3k without counting duplexer, lightning protection, and cable.
 
This will be at 950' in downtown Miami. Open to all. Part of the reason it's being done is the general "you stay off my repeater" vibe we picked up from looking at the local gmrs listings. It was baffling to see how unfriendly this side of the radio hobby can feel.

Well, everything is here except the antenna from antenna farm.  And I'm going to wait for that to show up before I go hog a hole out in the roof of the truck.  Impatience leads to sloppy installs.    That said, I seriously can't say enough good things about the antenna farm.  I ordered while working overnight using my work computer, so the companies IP address (which shows as somewhere in VA).  And while driving home after getting off shift at 7:30am, I received a phone call from them.  He was concerned about the IP being from VA, but the shipping being out to AZ, and wanted to make sure there wasn't fraud.  I explained that's work's IP, and everything is good.  What a pleasant surprise.   I'll be ordering everything from him from now on to be sure. 

used alot of those maxrad mirror mounts on dump trucks over the years. As long as its assembled as the picture its waterproof. The bottom of the mount is open and if you remove the 2 screws from under the bracket that mount comes off and its wide open. We used to have to repair some that got water damaged after years on the vehicles. Alot of DOT/DPW vehicles ran those in the NE on trunk systems.

If you look for the international version of CE you will be allowed to open up to wideband.

After thinking about it..... a better way to put it is that there is no point in treating very short lines as T-lines.  There is no benefit in treating it that way.  In PCB and chassis  design it's mainly the delay of the T-line that has any meaning
When you design on a PC board, even at 1GHz you measure the S-paramterters on the PCB or at the PCB interface.  So all the parasitics related to the packaging and PCB interface are absorbed into the S-Parameters.  Matching network components are generally treated as discrete impedances - and this is pretty accurate.  Everything is surface mount today and the traces are typically as short as the pads.  Once we got past the matching network we would try to keep our microstrip in the ballpark of 50 ohms but in many cases you are only going an inch or two.  So if your microstrip is off 15% it's probably still better than your matching network. 
Even at a GHz PC boards have become too small to economically use stubs and T-lines for on board for matching.  You can buy an 0402 1pf cap or 1nH inductor for next to nothing.  PC board space is too valuable for stubs or T-lines of meaningful length. 
The only way to really see this is to plot it out on a Smith chart.   When the rotation is so small it just doesn't do anything. 
Vince

I guess that comment is directed to me since I seem to be the one most vocal about Midland's apparent refusal to be honest about this subject.
 
Below is the FCC Grant (click thumbnail) for the MXT400. It is easily found on the FCC OET Equipment Certification database. The FCC grant is what matters. Regardless of what someone in Midland marketing has said, the MXT400 is certified as a narrow band radio. 10K5F3E is what the grant has as the modulation. That is somewhat worse than 11K3F3E which is what a narrow band is these days. A proper "wide band" radio complying fully with GMRS specs will have an emission designator of 16K0F3E or 20K0F3E. The rule sections 95.1771, 95.1773 and 95.1775 stipulate a 20 KHz BW and +/- 5.0 KHz deviation for the main (not interstitial) channels.
 
If in fact the software distributed by Midland invokes a wide band emission from the MXT400 then it is doing so in conflict with the radios type certification. Something Midland could fix by having the lab Timco test the radio under that configuration, and if it passes, then apply for a permissive change. So far no one has produced any evidence that by setting the 25 KHz or 20 KHz bits in the software actually increases the modulation. If someone does this live on youtube with proper test equipment so no sleight of hand, then I will retract the part of my assertion that the radio does not do wide band. But it will remain un-certified.
 
In the meantime the fact remains that folks buying a 40 or 50 watt Midland radio that delivers only 50% of the deviation permitted by GMRS rules, are getting an inferior product that has weak deviation and poor repeater CTCSS access. They might as well buy a cheaper, used, 25 watt Kenwood TK-840-1 which is certified for part 95, has wide band deviation and sounds better.
 
I urge anyone shopping for a GMRS radio to look up the certification and grant on the FCC OET database for radios being considered. Most cheap Chinese radios also fail to deliver the modulation bandwidth permitted by FCC. Some have barely a 5 KHz BW.
 
The FCC grant shows the power level as well as the emission bandwidth.
 
I have no axe to grind with Midland other than this low deviation issue. I would love to buy their MXT275 micromobile remote radio for my wife's car. But instead she has a Kenwood.

Unsolicited comment: midland sells a heck of a lot of radios so it is likely they have quite a lot of influence over whoever is manufacturing the radios for them.  There is at least a chance, that they own or have some kind of stake in such a business and some other radios are offshoots of their efforts or directions.  I'm thinking that we, the people on this forum may not totally be in the mainstream when wanting to connect a computer to the GMRS radio in our Jeep or whatever.  If I was Midland, having to certify, market and support these types of radios I doubt customer low-level programming is something I would find advantageous.  I'd want a fool-proof, reliable radio with compatible accessories.
 
having said that, I want programming access to my MXT400 but to be sure, I have not run into real limitations with it yet.  I'm going to guess it is transmitting in the wide band mode on repeaters just because it sounds strong. With my suboptimally  mounted Midland 6db whip antenna, yesterday I reached a repeater 40+ miles away.
 
im not bashing commercial radios but I'm not dissatisfied in having purchased a nice clean new radio from Midland directly with super fast service vs me having to dig the Cooties out of some icky old taxi cab radio. 
 
sorry for the rant but sometimes a different point of view can be worth considering.

It is highly likely that those radios are actually 20KHz bandwidth, not 25. You'd have to be looking at radios well over 30 years old to see 25 KHz bandwidth. If the FCC Type Acceptance shows an emission code that is 16Kxxxxxx, it is 20KHz. Given the fuzzy response from the FCC, you may consider legacy 20KHz radios to be very usable in GMRS. I do.
 
The narrowbanding effort that culminated on the the deadline of 1/1/13 brought most of Part 90 down to 12.5KHz, forcing a lot of agencies to remove their older 20KHz only radios from service which is why you see so many of them for sale on auction sites.

Just an update that the switching converter is working great with a bench supply on my desk so far, and I am slowly getting everything pieced together. Thanks for the Samlex recommendation @mbrun!
ocm

Just an update that the switching converter is working great with a bench supply on my desk so far, and I am slowly getting everything pieced together. Thanks for the Samlex recommendation @mbrun!
ocm

Coming from the perspective of a radio listener, I think 1 min is a good value as well as a serves as a reminder to keep one’s transmissions short and keep the dialog moving. However, as the talker, I admit I have personally settled on 2 min. One just proved to be to short and restrictive in way to many cases.

While the TOT is a great way aid in keeping the duty cycle down, I like the security it provides knowing that if the PTT gets stuck unknowingly and accidentally that the radio will stop transmitting automatically after the TOT time has expired.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

As SWR is a constant topic in radio, and since it may be difficult initially to grasp the concept of, I thought it would be helpful to provide a link to an incredibly effective video that allows you see it in action. The video is 60 years old and was produced by AT&T labs. It is worth watching from start to finish. You will get to see standing waves, reflected waves, impedance matches, mismatches, shorts and opens. It does not get visually any clearer than this.
 

 
Enjoy.
 
 
Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

Every bit helps, but not significantly. Let me help by giving you a very, very crude illustration.

A 5 watt radio provides 37dBm output. A typically radio has a receive sensitivity of -120dBm (the lowest level the radio needs to produce usable audio). That is 157dBm of difference. Now, imagine all 157dBm is lost in only 1 mile due to all the obstructions in the path, for an average of 1 dB loss per 33 ft. So now lets say you increase your radio power from 5 to 50 watts. That is an increase of 10dBm (37 to 47dBm). Ok, so now that you have increased your power 10 fold. How much further will you get if you assume the same linear average path poss of 1 dBm per 33 ft. You got it, 330’. So in this example, you increased your power by 10 fold yet your effective distance increased only from 5280 to 5610’.

Now, if you were not battling the losses from all the obstructions in the path and went into outer space that same 5 watts would get you 225 miles, and 50 watts would get you 700 miles. There, signal level will drop based purely on inverse square law.

The point I am trying to illustrate here is that presence of attenuation of signal caused by obstacles in the signal path plays a significant role in how far your signal will and will not travel. It takes a lot of extra power to “burn” through the obstacles. Much better to raise the antenna to remove the obstacles from the path in the first place.

I hope this helps a bit.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

There are switching converters in just about everything electronic - especially anything with batteries.  So you are already operating your radios in the presence of switching converters.  Your vehicle probably has several switching converters in it already.    I would be more worried about radiated interference than conducted interference.  If you have issues consider locating the converter in an area that is shielded from the antenna.
Switching converters can be very clean but higher power converters will make more noise.  I would by a quality brand.  Cheaper brands are more likely to cheat.
Chances are you will be fine with it but there is some luck involved.  Most switching converter noise (especially broad band noise) tends to be well below 400Mhz.  So I would be optimistic.  It'll probably be just fine.
Vince

I will leave the Kenwood/Vertex programming questions for RadioGuy as he is the expert on that. Me personally, I want the capability to change the programming of my radios myself, even though the learning curve may be more than I wish.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

I'm hardly an expert. I've learned by doing, and I've just been doing for a long time. I still get twisted up sometimes. I once spent nearly an hour trying to figure out why I wasn't seeing an option that I knew should be there on a Vertex repeater, before I realized I hadn't set my new software to 'expert' mode. Rookie mistake, 20 years in.
If you never programmed radios before, Kenwood and Vertex are probably 2 of the easier commercial software programs to learn on. Kenwood keeps a very common software platform among most of their programs, so once you learn their software, you're pretty familiar with where to look for most any settings you might need to adjust.
For a first timer, I'd say that getting a basic codeplug set up for you from the start is a good jumping off point, and at least you have a working codeplug to refer to if you want to start modifying stuff on your own. Rule #1 if you start programming - SAVE YOUR ORIGINAL CODEPLUG before you do any modifications. Keep that original archive untouched, and you'll always have something to go back to.
 
 
 

Samlex makes some decent 24 to 12 volt step down converters for around $100.  No matter what, pay attention to the Amp rating, the cheaper ones are often limited to just 10 or 15 amps advertised, which might be under what your 50 watt radio will pull under transmit. (Note that the actual ratings are often less for continuous draw - as compared to the "advertised" max instantaneous rating.)   I wouldn't get too worried about DC noise getting into your radio from the converter. More noise comes from bad grounding and alternator whine.
If you're planning to use a 1/2 wave antenna, then no ground plane should be necessary. Fender mounts are not ideal, but they work.  Fender mounts will far exceed the range of any portable you're talking simplex with.
You're asking good questions - but don't let perfection become the enemy of good. Your setup will be good enough.