PACNWComms

In several threads where I have posted about using Motorola DTR410's to monitor local Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum (FHSS) radios, many have said that this requires special equipment or knowledge. In my area of the country, Motorola FHSS DTR/DLR/DPL radios proliferated due to the overuse of VHF and UHF radios, such as FRS/GMRS and MURS equipment. However, most areas I frequent have defaulted Motorola FHSS radios in use, no special knowledge or equipment is needed, except another radio of compatible type. I leave mine on the default "Public 1" TalkGroup, as that is most often the one used (in my area and experience).....most radio users see everything as just a "Walkie Talkie" and charge it up, turn it on and press a side button to talk. On a similar note, I have an older monitor that went to a baby monitoring system made around 2000-2002 or so. With the proliferation of wireless video systems sold by a popular low cost tool store (which I do not recommend - buy Klein Tools, Xcelite, Wiha, Wera, Knipex....etc.) has also become useful once again. People default technology all the time, and this still applies to cheap radios for GMRS/FRS/MURS and amateur gear. The lowest common denominator still applies, often.

I am sure you will get an abundance of information on this site. To get you started though, use pipe that is intended for an antenna mast. Here are examples of what are easily and cheaply found online. https://www.cableandwireshop.com/50-foot-telescopic-push-up-antenna-mast-ez-tm-50.html

I used to be responsible for a fleet of AN/TRC-170 Troposcatter terminals, 6600 Watts would drop birds and kill trees (including pine trees) in the distance when used in Line of Sight (LOS) mode. At Timberline Lodge, I would rope off half the parking lot, and then see my signal drop when some fool would run over the flagging tape, knock over a dozen traffic cones and park their larger than school bus sized recreational vehicle right in front of my "Mickey Mouse Ears" antenna system. SatCom was a lot easier in that regard. After a week, there would be a path of dead birds and brown/red conifer tree in the distance....I did not like working LOS mode with those terminals. (Smarter birds would leave the area, it was always the robins and finches that were found dead, no eagles or crows.) Living in a pine forest then resulted in the development of UHF satellite communications, because, as you mentioned VHF has become saturated in many areas. VHF is cheap, but abundant, and I see that as well with UHF. UHF is also saturated (partially due to the proliferation of CCR's), and so is 900 MHz ISM band frequency hopping radios, as they were sold to every office and construction company in the region. That is also why I added a DTR410 to my suite of radios that I use to monitor local comms. All of this is driving many users to higher end and more selective radios though, which I see as a good thing. For GMRS, antenna height and quality can help, but so can a better radio. My minimum is Motorola CDM1550LS+ mobiles and HT750/1250 handhelds (but would use CDM1250's for mobiles if I owned any). It is all about the system or package, which can result in the system becoming more than its parts, if a person does not cheap out or cut corners. While CCR's may get people into the hobby, better gear will help, as will height and quality coax and antennas. Some of these forums have made me laugh with the justification of some of the worst RF emitters I have ever experienced, or lack of grounding, or lack of lightening protection with antennas/coax/towers/push up pipes connected to houses that would burn to the ground in a lightening strike. Pay attention to details, as those details may come back to bite you.....or you may get lucky and never have a problem.

That is a great radio. As is the XTS3000/5000 handhelds. My only issue with them, is that many of the organizations that use those radios, really used them, a lot. Public safety, fire, EMS and military. Be sure to buy them from someone/seller (I like SunnyComm) that actually checks them with Autotest capable test service monitors. Online auction sites often have ones that look good but have almost/or already failing internals. Much like many of the auction site XTL1500/2500 and XTS1500/2500's that have no functioning backlit display, volume only goes to 50%, speakers with metal shavings on the magnet, or cold solder joints on the: antenna, volume/on/off pot, and channel selector. None of these items will show on an Autotest, they require physical inspection. Good vendors will do both.

For cheap Part 90 radios, I used to run a tack (VHF and UHF) Vertex VX-3200 mobiles in my old Pontiac, as they fit the dash well. At that time, I also used stacked CDM series Motorola, and later XPR series Motorola mobiles. Now, i use a combination of CDM and XPR series mobiles (VHF and UHF single band radios), and they work very well. Of course you need Motorola CPS, and appropriate cables and computer to program them. For UHF GMRS you of course may have to dial them down depending on the power, I use 25 Watt radios for this reason, and get out well for most of my uses. For my current daily driver, I had a lot less room for radios, so ended up getting a Radioddity DB20-G, which is decent, but it is not Motorola for sure. Great little radio, but it is nowhere as sensitive or selective as a Part 90 radio.

I agree. Still use CDM series radios, and HT series as well. Great series, well built and still holding up in many cases. Recently, I was contacted by a "secret squirrel" special projects group that wanted to have me check their radio system. Luckily, they were in a shield room, with no public facing aspects, as they were still using HT600's in 2021 (narrowband requirement kicked in in 2013). HT600's were fully functional, but they said they could no longer find batteries (IS rated ones) for them. They may get placed into the corporate "radio museum" along with first generation Sabers and HT220's.

+1 on this. This is also what convinced my employer (through many arguments and meetings trying to beat this into their heads) to go with APX6000XE and up for fire. NFPA1802 is driving the requirements for firefighter radios to the XE (Exteme Environment) series as they are rated for five minutes at 325 degrees F. The new spec may move that up to 500 degrees F, based upon the death of firefighters in California in 2012, where the remote speaker mic cable melted, but the radio otherwise would have functioned, had that cable not melted. My own local corporate fire department just bought million dollar Aircraft Rescue Fire-Fighting (ARFF) trucks, but failed to budget another $20k for comms. I am now getting this as part of the Long Range Budget Plan (LRBP) for the replacement of ARFF trucks across the country. If you buy the truck, you need to include the cost of Icom aviation and Motorola XE series radios in that budget. Plus antennas, intercom headsets, etc. We will not be using XPR7550e handhelds for that type of work, even if the rest of the site is Trbo.

That 5 year timeline (plus 5 years of support) has been an issue in my field. But, in Motorola's benefit, it is also pushing my org toward an all ASTRO based system of systems, instead of a combination of HT-750 analog sites, Trbo XPR7550/e sites, and XTS/XTL/APX900/4000/7000/8000sites, kluged up networks spread across the country. Motorola has also pushed their competitors to do the same. However, the software as a service will be an issue if that portion continues. Some places do not want IT to merge with radio, and have the money to go elsewhere if needed. I know of one large system that went Tait, and is benefitting from that divergence from Motorola. My org is exploring that possibility as well....but has been Motorola so long it most likely will not happen. The first Motorola handhelds this company purchased was the HT220 Handie-Talkie FM Radio.

Some people/organizations may get further discounts, but here is some of my pricing with each radio being a Model 3 full keypad and display version, with antenna, single battery, belt clip, and single unit charger, single zone P25 Phase 1 FDMA with no AES encryption options: APX900 M3 $3116.00 APX4000 M3 $3392.70 APX6000XE M3 $4065.20 (this price is for P25 Phase 1/2 FDMA and TDMA with AES OTAR options) Then there is the XPR7550e M3 TDMA at $1006.40 (this org gets screwed on these, I tend to try to get new old stock instead at one third the price from a trusted vendor).

I have a 1941 Coronado LP record player/AM radio that still works, a testament to the use of tube construction and quality of manufacture. Granted it is only a receiver, but I have a much newer Courier 23 CB radio, tubes have not changed color (always transmit with an appropriate antenna) and only very light flaking on the chrome mess case. As you said, tubes were very forgiving.

That what these forums are for, to figure out what is in place, and what could help if needed. Stay the course and continue to explore, the site and the outdoors. I miss the days of going into the wilderness of Wyoming on a snowmobile.....had a Polaris Indy 450 way back when. Now I have to drive to the mountains, and rent them. Back then, cell phones were still new, and it was great making calls from the middle of the prairie. Glad to know that SAR is effective in your area, there are still many where there is no cell phone signal, nor radio signal. This is where satellite based systems may be needed as well.

Quality Control and Manufacturing Tolerance. I know of a corporate site that bought many different Midland products to support work and office operations in two buildings that take up about one square city block. They noticed the same thing, and boxed up the radios that did not work as well as others. Many of these were Midland T7x series handhelds, and we had to break the fixed antenna off to test them with Aeroflex and Hewlett Packard/Agilent Technologies test equipment. Their performance was all over the place. Receive sensitivity and selectivity was anywhere from about 0.27uV to 0.50 ish uV (most being toward the 0.50 uV end of the scale).....for UHF 0.35uV is considered "good" by many. In your case, there could be other issues as well, being mobile radios, as the antenna connectors could be better/worse, bends in the coax and the center conductor to sheathing/ground, quality of coax, ground plane around antenna. Lots of factors. Even power from the vehicles could impact range, power output, and radio function. You can take piles of Midland MXT275 radios, place them into the same make, model, and year of vehicle, and still get some variance based on many factors. The more of those factors that are the same, the easier it is to narrow down. A co-worker of mine, installs Motorola XTL1500 mobiles into Chevy Suburbans, same make, model year, and places the antennas int he same location. He still has some variation in function, but much less deviation due to manufacturing tolerances and quality control. A thousand dollar radio is usually built better than one that costs only a few hundred. Couple that with better coax, a quality antenna, and install it with attention to detail, and it will outperform a cheaper model. Likewise, two different installs of the same equipment can have variations based upon that installation. Are the coax connectors soldered or crimped, is the ground braid even around the connectors, are there any tight bends or twists, is there a coil of extra antenna cable at either or both ends (radio and antenna if applicable), what is the output power to the radio (12v -13.8 VDC), was the radio made at the end of a shift, where was it made, etc.

Still trying to get my salesman to get me pricing, as MSRP was listed by one vendor as $1716.00 (that better have a SUC Single Unit Charger included), but good to know on CPS 2.0 instead of MOL cloud. Although, I did just inundate him with a huge XPR7550e/XPR5550e/APX4000/APX6000XE order as well, he has been busy this week. (It's easier for me to spend corporate money than my own too....lol). Thank you for the additional info on the R7.

Here is the one I was looking for. Had to look in my history a bit. Was an interesting thread.

This was brought up in a previous thread about "standards".....I was the one to mention that the Wyoming idea was based upon the area code, I used to live in Cheyenne. Now in the Pacific Northwest, there was a push for FRS channel 1, in use by the Coast Guard and search and rescue in some coastal areas. Then, someone else said to use the 3-3-3 method, which is based on three per-centers and use of the third channel on a radio. There has actually been a lot of discussion on which channels, tones, and when to monitor what in these threads. You will find a lot of discussion on this subject, and differences around the country. Glad people are discussing this, and have some method, although some seem more prevalent and easier to recall when needed. For some light reading, here are two of the previous threads below.

+1 on this. And why many law enforcement squad cars still have some sort of scanner in their console, along with their comms. Plenty of people still use analog VHF and UHF in the commission of crimes. Whatever is cheap and abundant. Go to an auction of seized items and there will be groupings of CB, FRS/GMRS radios and beat up handheld scanners taken off of perps. If they were smart, they would find a lucrative job, or way to make more money.

The DTR series is the same, only four digits. What I did have happen once though, was a group that set many channels to different hopsets, and they were smart enough to change channels often. However, we are still talking about a 1 watt radio. As for the government backdoors, I do not know about that, if they have them or not. VSELP and FHSS would take some test equipment, but should not be outside the capability of a three letter agency or even SPAWAR or whatever they go by now. What I experience in my area, is a lot of users of DTR and DPL radios leaving them defaulted, so my DTR on a default hopset hears all of them talking....usually tugboats. This area is saturated by UHF (FRS/GMRS) radios, so they must have wanted something else, in the unlicensed ISM band. Motorola must have sold every barge, crane and construction crew in the region DTR and DPL radios, they are all over the place. So, they also end up in crimes, probably with default settings.

They are not even worth the shipping costs, and then I would have to dig for them, somewhere in the garage buried in a box somewhere. eXRS radios were that bad.