WRVG593

1. The discussion is about at what point does shorthand talk become "hidden messages". If I tell someone to grab a squeemy jeemy, and that means to go get me a 10mm wrench with an extension, is that not a hidden meaning?
2. Ten codes are not standardized according to the FCC. Police codes and EMS codes may be different. East coast 10 codes may be different than west coast codes. So who's 10 code do we follow? What makes some 10 codes okay and others not?
3. The point if this discussion is about what constitutes hiding if it is publicized. If I publish the codes online, make it avaliable to Public, able to provide links, printed papers, and give any and all information to the FCC at their demand, how would it be hiding? It was (1) publicly posted. (2) avaliable upon demand. (3) Written out for others to see

This is kind of a branch off of another post I made on the general forum. I figure most people who browse this forum would be more knowledgeable and maybe be able to open a discussion on their interpretation. This relates to the FCC rules stating there will be no usage of words used to convey hidden meaning, with the exception of '10-codes' such as 10-4. In this I would like 3 questions to be explored.

1. What constitutes hiding meaning

2. What constitutes a 10 code
3. At what point am i not 'hiding' my code

To begin, I will post paste the FCC Rule straight from the website. 

§ 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses.

(a) In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in § 95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate:

(3) Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (“10 codes” are permissible);

So first off, we will discuss what constitutes a hidden meaning. Someone made a decent comment in the other post that really struck my attention. At what point does short talk become hidden meaning? Yes we all know what 10-4 is due to movies, tv shows, and being radio dorks, but theoretically not everyone can know this. Also, if I was telling someone to grab a  [Raychem (manufacture) F-81 RG58 (come in a red clip, RG59 come in blue) connectors. I could see how the phrase "Red Raychem" could refer to lots of things, possibly even drugs, if you were not in the trade and even then only if you use Raychem products.]. By this logic, any shorthand talk other than 10 codes are hidden meaning, are they not?
2. What constitutes a 10 code
Under the FCC 95.1733 there is no OFFICIAL 10 code list. In fact, another person made a very good point in the other thread as well. There are 10 codes that don't match other departments. [Around here you could ask a LEO for a 10-21 and a Firefighter for a 10-21 ... one would call you, the other bring you a 2 1/2 inch hose.]
Which is a very good point. Without an official FCC 10 code, does adding 10 in front of your code make it a 10 code? As another poster said, [If I say I'm 10-365 WTH does that mean? Am I legal because I used a 10 code? Even 10-100 has different meanings to different people. Personally, I think I'm 10-733.] 
3. At what point am I no longer hiding my code
Furthermore, if I was to publish online my 10 Codes, let's say 10-1 is Unit En Route, 10-2 is Unit Stopped, 10-3 is Unit Broke down, and published it in a public space, is it no longer a hidden meaning? If I publish it online, have the codes readily avaliable to anyone who asks, and have them ready and printed, how are they a hidden code? If willing to give to any LEO, FCC agent, or Public Citizen with the exception of foreign ambassadors, why would it not be permissible? 
Remember to keep the comments cordial. This is meant to be a productive, fun, and thought provoking conversation. Please enlighten me! 

Yes yes but are they theoretical? ?

Others may disagree, but the reality is that the English language is a very large and convoluted bunch of code words and phrases.
One could simply agree on common innocuous phrases to have meanings such as "on the flop" - stopped, "on the fly" - en route, "on the fritz" - broke down, and as long as you don't refer to them in a cryptic fashion  ("I send code "on the flop" to your station.  I repeat "on the flop"!  How copy? Over!!)  no one is going to report you to the FCC for speaking in code...nor will anyone care enough, or listen long enough, to even understand that you are speaking in any "code" except English.
What's more, if you stick to simplex your communications are unlikely to be scrutinized by radio aficionados or the FCC for codes any more than the lumber yard, the daycare, the garbage truck drivers, or the construction guys already transmitting code phrases on those channels.

Good grief, you're right!  Somebody better tell OffRoaderX...

I am not the most interesting guy (I'm certainly not NotARubicon lol) and this is technically for the UV5R, but it is exactly the same. But instead of clicking (Baofeng-UV5R) click (Radioddity-UV5G). Even though this thing is a baofeng radio, the UV5G/UV5X is actually not listed in the baofeng section of chirp. It'll say UV5X but it's actually a whole different radio.

Yes it can! I have a video on YT showing it... it's realistically the same radio as a UV5R, just locked go GMRS frequencies. There's 2 ways to go about it and be able to TX on it.
1. Use chirp. Download the daily installer and update it. Use the Radioddity UV5G option, not the baofeng UV5G option. Use a Cross tone with a Rx and Tx tone of the same for the repeater; then set an offset of 5 mhz. Remember, these have to be set on channels 31-127. Any other channel and it will default back the original channels. You can still name 1-30 though! You don't have to look at the ugly "REPETR8" haha. 
2. Utilize the save feature while in channel mode. Sounds funny becuase it is. So let's say you have two GMRS Repeater on Channel 15/550. One of them has a tone if 100(A), the other 123(B). Set channel 23 (REPETR1)[A] To PL 100. Save [A] to channel 31. This will copy all data to channel 31. Effectively, channel 31 is now the exact same as channel 23[A]. Now change channel 31s tone to 123[B] and boom. You have that Repeater avaliable. 

Almost forgot:
A lot of sad-hams like to slum on GMRS - so turn on your roger beep, then kerchunk the repeater a few times - They'll come at you like The Walking Dead...

There may be others who are also passively scanning.  If you’re all waiting for each other it would seem very dead, so someone needs to initiate the conversation.  Don’t hesitate to pick up the mike and say “This is WRVZ494. Can I get a repeater check?”
Also, don’t shy away from saying “Is there anyone who wants to chat?”  It’s not against the rules and you might find out there are quite a few others who are just scanning.

Some places it’s even deader.
In those places, the best way to be able to hear others reaching out to make contact is to get your Technician ham license and a dual band ham radio.  There are ham radio repeaters in a lot more places than GMRS and calling CQ (meaning “I want to chat”) is part of the tradition. 
Steve

Some areas are, mostly because GMRS is intended for purpose-use. ie; when you go hiking, off-roading, etc, to talk with others in your group. Its not primarily intended for chatting with strangers.

OffRoaderX beat me to the punch because I'm a little long-winded today.  LOL
 
Unfortunately, it can be, depending on where you live.  It's not like CB or Ham radio, as far as the social aspects are concerned.  I typically tell people its a "bring your own contacts" type of service.
 
Just my opinion based on anecdotal experience, most people who get into GMRS are either looking for 1 or more of 3 things.
1.) Emergency/backup family communications where cell service is poor.
2.) Communications with family and friends while doing outdoor/adventurous activities.
3.) For community service. Providing repeater service for the community and putting together emergency planning in the event of a disaster. 
 
It's not really a rag-chew type of service... though in highly populated areas, there is a little of it.

No, UHF (GMRS frequencies) do not 'skip' like HF (CB frequencies) does.
What you can experience occasionally is tropospheric ducting where a warm air mass gets in overtop a code air mass and creates a tunnel for VHF and UHF frequencies to travel in far beyond normal line of site.  This is NOT a common occurence however and shouldn't be relied upon for consistent communications the way it is with HF communications.  HF 'skip' is caused by the RF reflecting off the Ionosphere and back down to the ground where it's then reflected back up again, over and over until the path loss of the signal becomes too great for a receiver to hear it.  
With ducting, the greatest path distance that can exist only extend slightly past the area covered by the air mass inversion since frequencies above 50 Mhz typically do NOT reflect off either the ground or the ionosphere. 
VHF and UHF frequencies also do not have any 'ground wave' propagation like the lower HF and VHF frequencies do.  Ground wave is a phenomenon where the RF wave 'hugs' the ground and carries long distances  past normal line of site (past the curvature of the earth) by staying on the ground.  This only works below 5 Mhz or so in frequency.
There are several web sites and books including the ARRL Amateur Radio Handbook that discuss the propagation of different RF frequencies at length and might be a good source for a better and more detailed explanation than a half away guy posting at 4 in the morning while half awake.
 

Yes it can! I have a video on YT showing it... it's realistically the same radio as a UV5R, just locked go GMRS frequencies. There's 2 ways to go about it and be able to TX on it.
1. Use chirp. Download the daily installer and update it. Use the Radioddity UV5G option, not the baofeng UV5G option. Use a Cross tone with a Rx and Tx tone of the same for the repeater; then set an offset of 5 mhz. Remember, these have to be set on channels 31-127. Any other channel and it will default back the original channels. You can still name 1-30 though! You don't have to look at the ugly "REPETR8" haha. 
2. Utilize the save feature while in channel mode. Sounds funny becuase it is. So let's say you have two GMRS Repeater on Channel 15/550. One of them has a tone if 100(A), the other 123(B). Set channel 23 (REPETR1)[A] To PL 100. Save [A] to channel 31. This will copy all data to channel 31. Effectively, channel 31 is now the exact same as channel 23[A]. Now change channel 31s tone to 123[B] and boom. You have that Repeater avaliable. 

Sure will. Give me probably till tommorrow. Will post soon!

Sure will. Give me probably till tommorrow. Will post soon!

Post pics of your GMRS (or even Ham...) setup! Some people have goofy setups, some have over the top amazing ones. I have friends who told me mine looks a little off haha. I have a bit more equipment now including an antenna i built on top of the house (sits above the chimney). Show your Base (or mobile) stations!

Post pics of your GMRS (or even Ham...) setup! Some people have goofy setups, some have over the top amazing ones. I have friends who told me mine looks a little off haha. I have a bit more equipment now including an antenna i built on top of the house (sits above the chimney). Show your Base (or mobile) stations!

When I scan frequencies I never add a tone to them just so I can hear it all. I can find the tone after I hear it if I want to talk back. 

The official answer is "It depends" ...

Hey there, I was thinking about this while sitting at work. Obviously half watt radios are not going to get very far, and an "emergency amatuer radio" that Transmits 100 watts on GMRS frequency is going to reach much farther. And line of sight has the biggest factor when it comes to the GMRS channels especially. But let's say a clear highway, completely straight, or even a field completely flat, was to he utilized.
How far does that Half Watt Walmart FRS Radio transmit? 1 mile? 3 miles for the horizon? 35 miles to a mountain? How far does the 25 watt go? 50? How much does it matter for How much juice you're getting? It's not like amatuer where you get 1500 watts. Does 5-50 really change alot?

When I scan frequencies I never add a tone to them just so I can hear it all. I can find the tone after I hear it if I want to talk back. 

The FCC keeps rejecting my application for a MURS license!  

GMRS on linked repeaters sometimes starts to sound like ham.
GMRS does have the offroad crowd adding to its overall popularity and the corresponding equipment demand, which is probably a good thing.  And Midland may not be everyone's favorite but at least they're bringing people in, and their everything-in-the-mike units sure are nice for many vehicles, although I wish they also had named channels and such.
 

LOL. Cant wait to see the responses to this one. This is gonna be fun.
I agree with you to a point. I am licensed for both amateur and GMRS and I use both quite a bit, some days one more than the other, and I can see what you are saying to an extent. I have made some great relationships with some really solid guys on ham and there are some really great people that are doing some really good work on expanding the capabilities of amateur radio, BUT with that being said I have been doing a lot of digital work lately and I can say that I have also came across some really, umm, how do I say this nicely, "sad hams" as they are so called. People who are angry for unknown reasons and are quick to "correct" you and have really bad attitudes for no apparent reason. I have also come across some guys that were clearly intoxicated and were a bit of a nuisance, but they usually get called out really quick by other more experienced guys.
GMRS is great are there are some really cool people on their as well, but I don't see the two being equivalent, they both are tools to use for the job that needs to be done. So far my experience with GMRS over the air has been fine and haven't had any issues with the few people I have come across on it, they have all been respectful and nice. So I think it is just a numbers game. You meet way more people over a greater distance on amateur than you do on GMRS. I can not speak on CB as I have never personally used it, but I have heard stories. 
Both are great, I have had more issues with people being "sad hams" on amateur than I have had issues over GMRS, but that simply is because I have talked to a lot more random people over ham than GMRS. I am sure there are jerks in GMRS too, I just haven't met them. Yet, lol. Thanks for the post.