So I heard something that sounded like Motobro or DMR.

[kidphc]

I was driving back from West Virginia heading to Frederick, MD. Wife was in my truck, I was driving my father's truck. I had taken the two BTech GMRS-V1 radios with some mag mounts on the trucks so we could talk on the way to Frederick.

 

All was fine till I hit Charleston WVa, We were on 462.7125 and we started getting what sounded like Motobro or DMR. It was interesting to hear, I really am not sure what it was actually. Anyone have any idea? I do know were were close to the hospital and casino at that point.

 

 

[Durake]

I know some lazy radio companies will put their customers on FRS/GMRS channels and run whatever, analog, DMR, NXDN, etc. Wouldn't surprise me if I started hearing that stuff.

 

I've already heard some construction crews using DMR on FRS channels in my area.

[kidphc]

I know some lazy radio companies will put their customers on FRS/GMRS channels and run whatever, analog, DMR, NXDN, etc. Wouldn't surprise me if I started hearing that stuff.

 

I've already heard some construction crews using DMR on FRS channels in my area.

It is kinda sad..

[quarterwave]

I have noticed the same. In my area there is an automotive supplier or two, and a hotel using FRS/GMRS channels and shouldn't be....however.....

 

With the rules change where FRS radios can use the GMRS mains at 2 watts....you don't know who is legal and who is not. I say about 50/50 illegal (seller put them on GMRS), and then business using FRS because it is cheap on equipment...even though it's not right, it is legal. I hope they get tired of replacing junk radios and buy some real ones and a license (part 90). 

[kidphc]

I thought that FRS/GMRS minus some of the grandfathered licenses were for non-business use only. Crap if I had a business and needed radio comms, it would probably mostly on MURS.

[quarterwave]

GMRS requires a user license, FRS does not. FRS "Rules" are generally non enforceable.

 

 'FRS is licensed by rule. This means an individual license is not required to operate an FRS radio provide you comply with the rules. You may operate an FRS radio regardless of your age, and for personal or for business use if you are not a representative of a foreign government.'

 

And you are right...businesses need to be on MURS if they want cheap comms. 

 

Maybe the good thing is that most of the cheap radios that people buy from a "store" are good for 2 watts at best. Really what was done with the rules was to make what people were (uneducated about radio) doing illegally with store bought radios that did GMRS and FRS in being legal. The fcc should have never allowed combo radios to begin with. 
 

[quarterwave]

Update... This fall we have had a lot of local projects started (roads, industrial, commercial) and I am hearing a lot more of what is probably newer FRS radios which can use the GMRS mains now at 2 watts, they are all using roger beep, and most can't be heard over a mile. Tell tale signs. Also, alot of Spanish, which would be illegal, and the radios are probably coming from Walmart, Grainger, Fastenal...etc. People just don't know what questions to ask and what is right anymore. 

[berkinet]

...I am hearing a lot more of what is probably newer FRS radios which can use the GMRS mains now at 2 watts... ...Also, alot of Spanish, which would be illegal, and the radios are probably coming from Walmart, Grainger, Fastenal...etc.

Yes. I have seen some on Amazon that claim up to two watts on 22 channels.

 

However, I was wondering what regulation you were citing in your comment that it would be illegal to speak Spanish on FRS? There is a requirement that GMRS station IDs be made in English or Morse code. But, the only other reference I can find to language in Part95 is in subpart-A - General Rules for the Personal Radio Services

 

Plain language voice communications. Voice communications without codes or coded messages intended to provide a hidden meaning. Foreign languages and commonly known radio operating words and phrases, such as “ten four” and “roger,” not intended to provide a hidden meaning, are not considered codes or coded messages.

[WRAF213]

Businesses can use FRS all they want, we've discussed it to death on other threads. MURS radios are very difficult to find at the same price point anyways.

 

Everyone, regardless of GMRS licensing, is limited to 1/2 watt on the 467 MHz interstitial channels (8-14) on an integrated antenna. It wouldn't surprise me if people were selling imported radios capable of more power or detachable antennas on 8-14, but the equipment shouldn't have type certification. FRS can use all the other channels (1-7, 15-22) at 2 watts and narrowband modulation. Even if the radio was sold as a FRS/GMRS combination radio under the old type acceptance rules, it was reclassified as a FRS radio during the rule change if it were compliant with those power limits.

 

Selling GMRS radios without proof of license, or making licensing requirements difficult to locate on the consumer-visible packaging, was the bigger issue. Had the labeling and licensing requirements been made more rigorous, the GMRS radio manufacturers (Motorola, Midland, Uniden, Cobra, etc.) would have been under pressure to recall basically every FRS/GMRS radio on the market. Additionally, adding more barriers for equipment adoption and generating a lot of consumer confusion would have hurt sales significantly and made the FCC look bad to the public. It was easier to change the requirements for FRS, and recertify the radios for FRS. GMRS was screwed either way due to the need for more channel capacity on FRS with falling equipment prices.

[quarterwave]

Yes. I have seen some on Amazon that claim up to two watts on 22 channels.

 

However, I was wondering what regulation you were citing in your comment that it would be illegal to speak Spanish on FRS? There is a requirement that GMRS station IDs be made in English or Morse code. But, the only other reference I can find to language in Part95 is in subpart-A - General Rules for the Personal Radio Services

 

Plain language voice communications. Voice communications without codes or coded messages intended to provide a hidden meaning. Foreign languages and commonly known radio operating words and phrases, such as “ten four” and “roger,” not intended to provide a hidden meaning, are not considered codes or coded messages.

 

I was probably thinking of that, and you had to not be representing a foreign nation to get a GMRS license....but Hell, after Obama who knows! 

[quarterwave]

Businesses can use FRS all they want, we've discussed it to death on other threads. MURS radios are very difficult to find at the same price point anyways.

 

Everyone, regardless of GMRS licensing, is limited to 1/2 watt on the 467 MHz interstitial channels (8-14) on an integrated antenna. It wouldn't surprise me if people were selling imported radios capable of more power or detachable antennas on 8-14, but the equipment shouldn't have type certification. FRS can use all the other channels (1-7, 15-22) at 2 watts and narrowband modulation. Even if the radio was sold as a FRS/GMRS combination radio under the old type acceptance rules, it was reclassified as a FRS radio during the rule change if it were compliant with those power limits.

 

Selling GMRS radios without proof of license, or making licensing requirements difficult to locate on the consumer-visible packaging, was the bigger issue. Had the labeling and licensing requirements been made more rigorous, the GMRS radio manufacturers (Motorola, Midland, Uniden, Cobra, etc.) would have been under pressure to recall basically every FRS/GMRS radio on the market. Additionally, adding more barriers for equipment adoption and generating a lot of consumer confusion would have hurt sales significantly and made the FCC look bad to the public. It was easier to change the requirements for FRS, and recertify the radios for FRS. GMRS was screwed either way due to the need for more channel capacity on FRS with falling equipment prices.

Thanks for the reminder of what we know. Is the pulpit free now?

[berkinet]

I was probably thinking of that, and you had to not be representing a foreign nation to get a GMRS license....but Hell, after Obama who knows!

 

I think it would be best if members of this forum kept their political views to themselves and stuck to the topics this board was created to support.

[quarterwave]

I think it would be best if members of this forum kept their political views to themselves and stuck to the topics this board was created to support.

I will stop reading the peacocking and grandstanding responses some people type because they need everyone to know they are the expert. LOL. 

 

The comment wasn't political, it was administrative, many FCC changes occurred under that administration. 

[WRAF213]

Back to the original question.

 

Are there people running DMR on GMRS? Yes. Does hearing DMR constitute illegal DMR use? Not really. There's other places that signal could have come from, such as intermod. I would expect DMR repeater outputs on GMRS interstitials to be quite uncommon, but still possible; ruling out interference sources should come first. Even in the event someone is running a DMR repeater on that channel, the FCC won't do anything about it because it's too difficult to prove equipment ownership or the presence of harmful interference.

 

If you hear a repeater output on a 462.xxxx channel, check for TDMA on 467.xxxx. That would indicate there's a repeater on the standard frequency split. Some repeaters have inputs somewhere in the business band and hearing an input signal requires being pretty close to the other user. Pretty much all DMR radios transmit on just one timeslot, which sends short bursts. Baofeng's DM-5R is a notable exception and transmits on both timeslots with the same data, giving a continuous carrier.

[WREB270]

I have noticed the same. In my area there is an automotive supplier or two, and a hotel using FRS/GMRS channels and shouldn't be....however.....

 

With the rules change where FRS radios can use the GMRS mains at 2 watts....you don't know who is legal and who is not. I say about 50/50 illegal (seller put them on GMRS), and then business using FRS because it is cheap on equipment...even though it's not right, it is legal. I hope they get tired of replacing junk radios and buy some real ones and a license (part 90).

Forgive my ignorance do you mean the shared channels 8-14 or do you mean the 14-22 GMRS channels?

 

I live in the Charleston SC area and the GMRS freqs 462.550 and up are very active on the drive home mostly with businesses. A lot of retail outlets, schools/daycares, some big name companies like Catipiler and Boeing. Like clock work channel 21 has someone identifying via Morse Code every 5 minutes, channel 17 on random time slots, on random days will have some unknown repeater broadcasting it's identifier every 15. kinda wish I knew it's details so I could use it. I pick up handhelds on the upper channels my whole ride home, loose one, pick up the next a mile down the road on the same channel. If I'm on scan near my home usually get caught on channel 1 because someone has been keyed in that channel for the last 4 days non stop.

 

Makes me want to get my family through the HAM test so we can all use VHF lol.

[quarterwave]

This is probably the best way to answer...

 

http://www.nat-com.org/frs-gmrs.html

[intermod]

I am hearing both Direct-Mode DMR and NXDN on the 462 channels daily now from a high-elevation receiver.  We also have maritime users from the local port operating direct mode DMR on up to four different 467 MHz input channels (the same company each time; they use the same Color Code and Talkgroup on each channel).    They were a bit surprised when we used DMR All-Call to talk back to them over the air.....they then went away.    

 

So the "criminals" can use digital modes freely and without consequence, but us legal, licensed users cannot.  Kind of sounds like the gun control debate.

 

Greg 

[gman1971]

DMR, for good or for evil, is here to stay.

 

Personally, I don't think interfering with people's communications, whether legal or illegal (not up to you to decide, but for a judge), is a sound tactic either; two wrongs don't make it right. If someone is using DMR and its bothering you to the point of turning your face purple, then by all means, head out to the FCC online complaint website and file away, but by interfering with someone's communications you're also breaking the law.

 

As for the DMR stuff, I've personally played around with it and I have to admit, its like the dark side of the force... it lures you... wide FM only sounds better when you have an amazing setup, but with a crappier setup you still get crystal clear audio until pretty much the end of the reception, then having the option to call groups, or individuals, send SMS, have 2 talkpaths on a single channel, or the option to do single-frequency repeaters...etc... the power of the dark side is strong... very strong.... 

 

I wouldn't mind a revision to the rules, but in the meantime, FM is what we have, now, if we like DMR that much, we should collect enough signatures from licensed operators to get the FCC to revise the laws and pass new ones that allows DMR/MotoTRBO on GMRS. 

 

G.

[n4gix]

I wouldn't mind a revision to the rules, but in the meantime, FM is what we have, now, if we like DMR that much, we should collect enough signatures from licensed operators to get the FCC to revise the laws and pass new ones that allows DMR/MotoTRBO on GMRS.

I think it wouldn't fly too well to force 1500+ repeater owners to replace their legacy Wideband FM repeaters with a shiny new DMR repeater, no matter the circumstances.

[RCM]

I think it wouldn't fly too well to force 1500+ repeater owners to replace their legacy Wideband FM repeaters with a shiny new DMR repeater, no matter the circumstances.

Nope. If the FCC tried to force something like that, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't renew my license.

I still like carbureted vehicles, too. Not to mention mechanically injected diesels.

[gman1971]

Nope. If the FCC tried to force something like that, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't renew my license.

I still like carbureted vehicles, too. Not to mention mechanically injected diesels.

 

LMAO, I build electric vehicles, so I don't like either one of the above (carburetor nor fuel injection)... but who cares...

 

Why would the FCC force to go digital? I meant to also allow the digital stuff, honestly I don't care either way. Its not for me to decide, nor impose rules. It is just my opinion, and..., well, everyone has one.

 

Cheers.

 

G.

[n4gix]

With the limited bandwidth allocated to GMRS, and no repeater coordination at all, it would cause all sorts of grief. Analog and any form of digital simply cannot co-exist within the current 8 channel landscape.

[H8SPVMT]

On 11/26/2019 at 7:12 AM, WREB270 said:

give my ignorance do you mean the shared channels 8-14 or do you mean the 14-22 GMRS channels?

 

I live in the Charleston SC area and the GMRS freqs 462.550 and up are very active on the drive home mostly with businesses. A lot of retail outlets, schools/daycares, some big name companies like Catipiler and Boeing. Like clock work channel 21 has someone identifying via Morse Code every 5 minutes, channel 17 on random time slots, on random days will have some unknown repeater broadcasting it's identifier every 15. kinda wish I knew it's details so I could use it. I pick up handhelds on the upper channels my whole ride home, loose one, pick up the next a mile down the road on the same channel. If I'm on scan near my home usually get caught on channel 1 because someone has been keyed in that channel for the last 4 days non stop.

That might be KAE6516 out of Bowman, SC near Orangeburg. His repeater is now listed here as well.

 

[PACNWComms]

If it was digital TDMA (Time Domain Multiple Access) in use that you heard, you would heard the flutter on nearby AM radio. I often demonstrate this with an AM Citizen's Band radio (Cobra 27 LTD Classic) with the volume turned up, and key up a UHF DMR radio nearby. You will hear the flutter of the time slots back and forth, rapidly switching between two effective channels (I use an older Motorola XPR6550). In many cities FRS/GMRS and digital DMR radios are often heard, and it can be fun to listen to analog radios with a cheap old scanner. 

[Lscott]

15 hours ago, PACNWComms said:

If it was digital TDMA (Time Domain Multiple Access) in use that you heard, you would heard the flutter on nearby AM radio. I often demonstrate this with an AM Citizen's Band radio (Cobra 27 LTD Classic) with the volume turned up, and key up a UHF DMR radio nearby. You will hear the flutter of the time slots back and forth, rapidly switching between two effective channels (I use an older Motorola XPR6550). In many cities FRS/GMRS and digital DMR radios are often heard, and it can be fun to listen to analog radios with a cheap old scanner. 

I have a couple of the VHF and UHF XPR-6550’s as well. They’re not bad radios. I’m primarily a Kenwood guy. The chief complaint I have is the limit of 16 channels per zone. I do a lot of scanning with my radios so the above is a major pain so at the moment I’m not using them much. I know the 7550’s don’t have the limitations however the funky antenna connector is a deal breaker. That’s why I went for the 6550’s to experiment with. They’re also cheaper when buying used.

I also have the XPR6580 to experiment around with on the Ham 33cm band. There is a nice hack using in memory hex editing for CPS-16 to change the lower band limit from 935MHz to 902MHz. Unfortunately there isn’t much 33cm band activity around my area currently.