New to GMRS, looking for advice

[gman1971]

It hasn't been too long since I started on GMRS and I started with Baofengs, fortunately it wasn't a very expensive mistake. Once you try to do anything in the real world where you need the radios to reliably work and receive almost all the time, b/c those cheap radios have very poor RF performance you'll hear static where you should hear a loud signal. These cheapies desense (receiver sensitivity goes to ZERO) at the first sign of RF noise... from anything... even other portables around it will make it deaf. You're better off buying used (or new) commercial gear that won't desense all the way when another Baofeng powers up 1 mile away from yours.

 

Have at it, this guy made this nice video explaining why most of those cheap things range is usually pretty bad. And remember, just because you can hit a repeater doesn't mean your radio is any good, it most certainly means that the repeater is using a very good setup to do the heavy lifting.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUQsZrd3IGo

 

G.

[WREJ796]

Wideband/narrowband shouldn't matter at all on those radios. There's a single, wideband IF filter on the RDA1846/S front-end; and the radio just makes the audio louder to compensate for the lower narrowband audio levels. They'll achieve the same level of quieting at any bandwidth setting, but voice intelligibility would have a -6dB disadvantage on narrowband. It's possible that path variability (multipath propagation, mostly) is having an effect on perceived results, since most of your results were so close to the noise floor.

All I know is that I couldn't hear anything on narrow but results were much better on wide. You're saying it always receives on wideband and just amplifies the narrowband audio rather than receiving only narrowband? When I couldn't hear anything on narrowband in some tests is that because the "volume" was lower than the squelch level (sorry if that's not the right term), or was narrowband actually affecting the transmitted/received signal strength?

 

 

It hasn't been too long since I started on GMRS and I started with Baofengs, fortunately it wasn't a very expensive mistake. Once you try to do anything in the real world where you need the radios to reliably work and receive almost all the time, b/c those cheap radios have very poor RF performance you'll hear static where you should hear a loud signal. These cheapies desense (receiver sensitivity goes to ZERO) at the first sign of RF noise... from anything... even other portables around it will make it deaf.

Since I'm coming from a 0.5W FRS radio the bar wasn't set very high  . I'm happy with the GMRS-V1 overall, I just wanted to test the practical limits of range and understand the unexpected behavior, in reality we'll probably be within a half mile of each other most of the time and probably the only ones using radios so this is still a huge upgrade. 

 

I did take a look at some of the commercial Kenwood/Motorola radios but all I could find was well-used equipment from $50-150 that may or may not include accessories. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. Even with the antenna upgrade I've only spent $60 on the GMRS-V1 for a brand new radio with charger/headset, so it's still the cheapest Part 95A certified option for me. If I could find a used complete radio package for around $50 I would probably upgrade just to see what all the fuss is about 

[gman1971]

I used the Baofengs for quite a while before going the Vertex Standard route... and again, so long you're aware of the limitations, it doesn't really matter so long it works.

 

G.

 

All I know is that I couldn't hear anything on narrow but results were much better on wide. You're saying it always receives on wideband and just amplifies the narrowband audio rather than receiving only narrowband? When I couldn't hear anything on narrowband in some tests is that because the "volume" was lower than the squelch level (sorry if that's not the right term), or was narrowband actually affecting the transmitted/received signal strength?

 

 

Since I'm coming from a 0.5W FRS radio the bar wasn't set very high  . I'm happy with the GMRS-V1 overall, I just wanted to test the practical limits of range and understand the unexpected behavior, in reality we'll probably be within a half mile of each other most of the time and probably the only ones using radios so this is still a huge upgrade. 

 

I did take a look at some of the commercial Kenwood/Motorola radios but all I could find was well-used equipment from $50-150 that may or may not include accessories. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. Even with the antenna upgrade I've only spent $60 on the GMRS-V1 for a brand new radio with charger/headset, so it's still the cheapest Part 95A certified option for me. If I could find a used complete radio package for around $50 I would probably upgrade just to see what all the fuss is about 

[WREJ796]

Great test! Thanks for posting this.

Sounds like either your GMRS-V1 has a receive problem or your UV5R has a transmit problem, at least on low power.  In my opinion the first option is most likely. Do you have a third, narrowband radio to add to the mix? Even an old FRS radio, although you would have to move closer for that test.

 

 

So this test wasn't very conclusive, partly because we had limited time and restricted terrain. UV-5R and GMRS-V1 were at Point A and my old FRS started at Point C about 1/4 mile away through a flat neighborhood walking away from Point A. The issue we had was the flat neighborhood drops off on both ends after about 1/2 mile so it's hard to test beyond that range.

 

Anyway, reception was clear on the FRS from both GMRS radios up to 1/2 mile, then as we lost line of sight there was quite a bit of noise and choppy audio. Subjectively it seemed like the audio from the GMRS-V1 was less understandable than the UV-5R, but it was close. From FRS to both GMRS radios reception was fine, but dropped off completely once we lost line of sight.

 

So *maybe* the GMRS-V1 has a transmit issue? To @gman1971's point about desensing, I did notice that sometimes when I was holding both GMRS-V1 and UV-5R only one of them would light up and receive from the FRS. Not every time, but probably 1/3 of the time. Holding them farther apart helped.

 

I don't know when I'll have a chance to do another proper test with multiple radios so for now I guess I'll just accept that my practical line of sight range is about 2-3 miles with the radios I have now.

[gman1971]

It sounds like the same "wild goose chases" I went through when I was all about Baofengs and 20 dollar budgets "can you hear me now?"

 

Again, nothing wrong with that; its just don't hold your expectations too high with the lower end stuff. Otherwise police and military would be operating 20 dollar Baofengs instead of the APX8000 radios and whatnot.

 

 

G.

[marcspaz]

It sounds like the same "wild goose chases" I went through when I was all about Baofengs and 20 dollar budgets "can you hear me now?"

 

Again, nothing wrong with that; its just don't hold your expectations too high with the lower end stuff. Otherwise police and military would be operating 20 dollar Baofengs instead of the APX8000 radios and whatnot.

 

 

G.

Man, can I relate. I have two Btech HT's that I use when off-roading. I'll settle for the reduced performance out in the mountains because we are only a few car lengths apart and if I drop a radio in the mud, I would rather have it be a $20-$30 BaoFeng than a $250 Yaesu.

[gman1971]

Yep, if they break you won't have a big dollar burning hole on your pocket.

 

G.

 

Man, can I relate.  I have two Btech HT's that I use when off-roading.  I'll settle for the reduced performance out in the mountains because we are only a few car lengths apart and if I drop a radio in the mud, I would rather have it be a $20-$20 BaoFeng than a $250 Yaesu.

[axorlov]

Addressing the original question.

There are discussions on Motorola and Kenwood HTs on this forum. I settled on Kenwood because I was already familiar with their mobile radios. My criteria for handheld were:

- Part 95 (because I wanted to be squeaky clean legally and RF-wise when on GMRS), HAM frequencies is nice to have but not required

- No less than 16 programmed channels

- Reasonable price on ebay, below $100

- Lithium batteries (low self-discharge current allows them to be stored for months and maintain the charge) - that turned out not to be so much important

- Programming software avilability

- Parts availability, like cases, buttons, whatnot...

So I settled on Kenwood TK-3170-K (and it's brother 3173-K). I have four of these for 4 years, with 3 still working and one quit on me (receives but does not transmit). They are honest 4 Watts, Part 90 and 95, perform on 70cm HAM band just fine (software complains about out-of-range, but still works). They are significantly bigger and heavier than Baofengs, but still not a burden for a day hike. As all Part90/95 equipment they can be programmed in a foolproof way that people who have no clue about radio can easily operate them without fear of striking wrong frequency or rendering radios non-working. I did a quick and dirty comparison against Baofeng UV-B5 and Yaesu FT1-XD, the performance is on par with Yaesu, but outshoots UV-B5 both HT-HT and HT-repeater.

 

With all that said, should I start anew today, I would probably go with TK-380. It's bigger than 3170, has NiMh battery and weird connector for external headset and programming. But it is almost twice cheaper on ebay, and NiMh allows for an easy refurbishing with new cells.

[DeoVindice]

The Kenwood multipin connector might be a bit weird, but it's extraordinarily secure with external mics. I far prefer it to the two-point connector.

 

I like the TK-380 as well, it can do a bit more than the TK-390 but I anecdotally don't think it is as durable. I have no experience with the TK-3170.

[RCM]

I'm a fan of the TK-380 as well, and I also have a TK-280 and a couple of TK-481s which are the vhf and 900 MHz versions of the same radio.

[WREJ796]

So curiosity got the better of me while I was doing some shopping online for Black Friday and I found a Kenwood TK-360G for $40 on eBay with a new battery and extra antenna. I know the TK-360G is older, but I hoped it would give me that third data point to see which radio has issues. I also wanted to try setting up a crosslink to Zello to include some non-radio friends/family so I needed another radio 

 

As an aside the Zello crosslink is amazing and super helpful for testing. Since I can leave one radio linked to Zello at home and take the other radios with me, I can do all of this testing solo using Zello as an echo device back to my phone (bonus, it records everything for later review).

 

 

Testing was at low power/narrow since I was only in my neighborhood.

 

With the GMRS-V1 at home connected to Zello, I started walking with the UV-5R and TK-360G. Initially both sounded just fine, but as I reached my normal neighborhood limit where the UV-5R starts to hiss a bit, the TK-360G still sounded fine. Farther out the UV-5R dropped out completely, but the TK-360G went another 1/4 mile before it became unintelligible.

 

Returned home, connected the UV-5R to Zello and did the same test. This time both the GMRS-V1 and TK-360G went about to the point where the UV-5R dropped out before. Seems like the UV-5R was the limiting factor on this test.

 

Third time I connected the TK-360G to Zello, UV-5R went as far as last time before dropping out, GMRS-V1 went 1/4 mile farther. Again, UV-5R seems to have reduced range.

 

 

I wasn't sure if that was enough data to draw any conclusions, so I set up the GMRS-V1 at Point A (from the original test) on high power/wide with Zello crosslink, then drove over to Point B with the other two radios. With the UV-5R I couldn't hit Point A, but the TK-360G was clear (though a bit choppy at times). Talking through Zello (so GMRS-V1 at Point A was transmitting) I could hear pretty well on the TK-360G with a little static, couldn't hear anything at all on the UV-5R.

 

I drove back to Point A and put the UV-5R on Zello, drove back to Point B and tried again. I couldn't hear either the GMRS-V1 or the TK-360G, nor could either of them hear the UV-5R when I transmitted through Zello.

 

Based on that I think its fair to say the UV-5R is the "issue" here, why specifically I don't know.

 

 

Some other odd issues I noticed with the TK-360G was that it emits a high-pitched whine (almost like feedback, but it's a constant tone and volume) whenever the UV-5R is transmitting, but not when the GMRS-V1 transmits. Likewise the reception on the UV-5R sounds noisy, almost choppy when the TK-360G is transmitting while the GMRS-V1 receives just fine. Reception on the GMRS-V1 sounds fine when either the UV-5R or the TK-360G are transmitting. I'm not sure what's causing that, but as of right now the UV-5R and TK-360G don't like each other. I'll have to test with my friend's UV-5R to see if it's just my UV-5R.

 

Anyway, sorry about the massive wall of text. It's about as long as my Baofeng wild goose chase 

[Jones]

Anyway, sorry about the massive wall of text. It's about as long as my Baofeng wild goose chase 

 

No need for apology.  Like an epic novel, you have us hooked.  We are waiting for the next installment of this series. Please continue this experiment, and keep us posted using charts, walls of text, epic novels, whatever.  Thanks.  Which radios work well? Which don't play nice with others? Where are the weak-links in antennas? You are getting down to what works best for your application, which may apply to others of us as well. This is interesting stuff.

[Extreme]

Hijacking:  

 

https://used-radios.com/products/kenwood-tk-380-ltr-trunking-portable-radio

 

Right track for 1st HT?  Version 1 firmware so no Windows programming (DOS - yuk) but can have it programmed by seller.  Looked on ebay but usually radio only, no charger, etc.  Figure I can pickup a spare battery online.

 

Might jump into Kenwood mobile unit after messing with this..

[berkinet]

...Right track for 1st HT?...

 

I have no specific information on the radio you noted, and I am not very knowledgable on Kenwood products. So, consider my two comments as very generic...

If you have, or think you might someday have, an interest in ham radio, you might want to look for a radio that covers both the (US) ham band (420-450 mHz) and GMRS band.  Other than that, the radio you noted supports trunking. Since trunking is not used on GMRS, you might possibly find a non-trunking radio at a lower cost. 

[Downs]

Hijacking:

 

https://used-radios.com/products/kenwood-tk-380-ltr-trunking-portable-radio

 

Right track for 1st HT? Version 1 firmware so no Windows programming (DOS - yuk) but can have it programmed by seller. Looked on ebay but usually radio only, no charger, etc. Figure I can pickup a spare battery online.

 

Might jump into Kenwood mobile unit after messing with this..

Commercial radios are great. Built like tanks and typically have long battery life. Upshot of Kenwood gear is finding programing software is typically pretty easy compared to something like Motorola.

 

Don't get scared off by the DOS programing. Its just some extra keystrokes. I program my HT1000s via DOS.

 

Also +1 to above no need for trunking for your use so if theres a cheaper version without go for it.

 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[DeoVindice]

I've reflashed V2.0 firmware on Windows without an issue. KPG-49D may still work on that radio.

[RCM]

I've reflashed V2.0 firmware on Windows without an issue. KPG-49D may still work on that radio.

It does.

[WRVR429]

I have the btech gmrs v2 and i cant receive local fsr radios. I hear them all fine on my Midlands. Even when sq is set to 0 

[SteveShannon]

51 minutes ago, WRVR429 said:

I have the btech gmrs v2 and i cant receive local fsr radios. I hear them all fine on my Midlands. Even when sq is set to 0 

Then you’re on the wrong frequency or you more likely have a receive tone set that doesn’t match the FRS radio transmit frequency.  Try clearing the receive tone first.

Or your radio is just really not very sensitive.  How close are the FRS radios?  If you kerchunk the Midland on that same channel do you hear it on your GMRS V2?  (I’m assuming simplex because FRS doesn’t use repeaters)