Which digital voice mode do you prefer?

[JLeikhim]

I ressurected some Motorola Securenet DES equipment.

It sounds much better than P25 and has a 12 Kbps CVSD vocoder that was designed in the 1980s.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

[WRNA236]

[deleted]

[Lscott]

You have some points.

The dual channel direct mode likely works well enough otherwise the more established name brand manufacturers wouldn’t be offering it. 
 
I have a Kenwood TK-D340U that has it. I haven’t really played with the radio, need another radio with the same feature to test it out. At least a model and manufacturer one can reasonably expect the radio to be designed right.

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/DMR_TK-D240V_D340U_K_letter_1124.pdf
 

The switching between TX and RX should be very fast using TDMA since the frequency doesn’t need to change, unlike FDMA modes. If the frequency needs to change then you have the pull in lock time for a PLL type frequency synthesizer. A DDS doesn’t have that problem, but still has to be programed through the micro which does take time, maybe not as long as a PLL design.

If there is a big delay between switching TX/RX I suspect it’s due to other issues unrelated to the electronic power switching.

[Lscott]

To change things up a bit, I would like to get some info on talk groups.

At one point “RepeaterBook.com” would show which talk groups are accessible through a given repeater. Lately I don’t see this listed anymore on the details page for a given repeater.

I can find lists of talk groups, seems the various modes are tending to use the same group ID’s for the same functionality and locations, at least for DMR and P25 I’ve looked at so far. But that doesn’t help if the repeater doesn’t support all of them. I’ve also seen recommendations to use my DMR ID, CCS7, for my P25 ID.

For example I’m building a code plug for a P25 radio, TK-5320, and I wanted to test the audio by using the “Parrot” talk group on a local repeater. Looks like I can activate the repeater but nothing else happens. I don’t know if it’s my problem or the repeater doesn’t support that function/talk group.

[gortex2]

The majority of the P25 repeaters dont offer parrot mode or talkgroups. there are some on the east coast using P25NX and do have a couple talkgroups, defined by NAC code but those are limited. Im sure there are some out ther using alot of stuff on P25 but I've not come across any in my travels. My P25 repeaters are local and no internet connections. My goal was quality radio comms and not talking across the US...

[Lscott]

4 hours ago, kb2ztx said:

The majority of the P25 repeaters dont offer parrot mode or talkgroups. there are some on the east coast using P25NX and do have a couple talkgroups, defined by NAC code but those are limited. Im sure there are some out ther using alot of stuff on P25 but I've not come across any in my travels. My P25 repeaters are local and no internet connections. My goal was quality radio comms and not talking across the US...

Thanks. It's good to get another perspective on things. I guess if there isn't going to be much P25 activity around by me or any repeater linking the radio makes for a really nice fancy analog FM one. 8-( I was watching a really short video earlier where a guy was using what looked like a almost new NX-300 just for GMRS while ignoring the digital half, NXDN, of the radio.

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/02_NX-200G&300GBrochure.pdf

[wayoverthere]

2 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Thanks. It's good to get another perspective on things. I guess if there isn't going to be much P25 activity around by me or any repeater linking the radio makes for a really nice fancy analog FM one. 8-( I was watching a really short video earlier where a guy was using what looked like a almost new NX-300 just for GMRS while ignoring the digital half, NXDN, of the radio.

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/02_NX-200G&300GBrochure.pdf

It really depends on the repeaters, to be honest. It looks like a number of the p25 machines on my area are linked, either smaller local stuff (n6lye), down state (KERN), or to the coast (w6dxw, which has some both here and on the coast). Maybe linked is just a bigger thing in CA with the fires and quakes.

I won't say there's nothing with talkgroups yet, but I haven't gotten that far into it to say one way or the other. Will have to see what I can find online.

[Lscott]

4 minutes ago, wayoverthere said:

It really depends on the repeaters, to be honest. It looks like a number of the p25 machines on my area are linked, either smaller local stuff (n6lye), down state (KERN), or to the coast (w6dxw, which has some both here and on the coast). Maybe linked is just a bigger thing in CA with the fires and quakes.

I won't say there's nothing with talkgroups yet, but I haven't gotten that far into it to say one way or the other. Will have to see what I can find online.

True.

The P25 activity might pick up with time. I'm guessing that's simply because DMR is becoming more popular. Once people get bored with it they'll jump on the next thing that looks cool and carries some prestige as being unique or rare. Then the cycle starts all over again with repeater networking etc.

P25 might also become more popular when more of the business, and particularly government users, switch over to P25 Phase 2 equipment. All the P25 Phase 1 stuff will get dumped on the surplus market.

[wayoverthere]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

True.

The P25 activity might pick up with time. I'm guessing that's simply because DMR is becoming more popular. Once people get bored with it they'll jump on the next thing that looks cool and carries some prestige as being unique or rare. Then the cycle starts all over again with repeater networking etc.

P25 might also become more popular when more of the business, and particularly government users, switch over to P25 Phase 2 equipment. All the P25 Phase 1 stuff will get dumped on the surplus market.

I guess we'll see on the stability. I feel like the groups that go to the effort of linking are likely to be mlthe more stable, less likely to jump to the next cool thing, but who knows. I've been keeping an eye for some p25 mobiles; most of what i see is Motorola, but a lot of that is 700/800...I've seen a couple "p25 capable" icom, but looked like actually getting the capability would run in the $600's.

Interestingly, there's more p25 repeaters in my area than D-star and Fusion combined. Haven't actually looked into DMR, though I probably should, as I think the EVXs I have are capable. For back to back testing, I have jumped back and forth between the p25 and the analong on the same channel, and it was minor but detectable better on p25.

[Lscott]

1 minute ago, wayoverthere said:

I guess we'll see on the stability. I feel like the groups that go to the effort of linking are likely to be mlthe more stable, less likely to jump to the next cool thing, but who knows. I've been keeping an eye for some p25 mobiles; most of what i see is Motorola, but a lot of that is 700/800...I've seen a couple "p25 capable" icom, but looked like actually getting the capability would run in the $600's.

Interestingly, there's more p25 repeaters in my area than D-star and Fusion combined. Haven't actually looked into DMR, though I probably should, as I think the EVXs I have are capable. For back to back testing, I have jumped back and forth between the p25 and the analong on the same channel, and it was minor but detectable better on p25.

I guess I got lucky with the P25 radio I purchased.

This is the original item listing reference number on eBay.

294333278387

I think you can go here and enter the above number. That should bring up the original listing.

http://www.watchcount.com/

I spend a lot of time checking eBay using my saved searches to see if anything new pops up for the models I'm looking to buy. If it looks like a good deal I have to spring for it quick before somebody else notices it. That's how I snagged a TK-D340U 32 channel Kenwood DMR radio for around $40  to $50. The same thing happened with a Kenwood NX-340U 32 channel radio for NXDN for $50. Never saw any deals that good since.

[wayoverthere]

48 minutes ago, Lscott said:

I guess I got lucky with the P25 radio I purchased.

This is the original item listing reference number on eBay.

294333278387

I think you can go here and enter the above number. That should bring up the original listing.

http://www.watchcount.com/

I spend a lot of time checking eBay using my saved searches to see if anything new pops up for the models I'm looking to buy. If it looks like a good deal I have to spring for it quick before somebody else notices it. That's how I snagged a TK-D340U 32 channel Kenwood DMR radio for around $40  to $50. The same thing happened with a Kenwood NX-340U 32 channel radio for NXDN for $50. Never saw any deals that good since.

Very nice my 824 was similar...saw a deal and jumped on it.

2 of the 3 EVXs were a good deal, buy kind of an ordeal with the seller (ongoing contact about thinking they'd shipped 4 instead of 2, and leaving info off the address), but they came packing larger capacity motorola batteries and included a speaker mic for $60 apiece. The third was from a different seller, a little steeper price but better fit what I wanted, and was easy as pie.

[gortex2]

The issue is as said before the guys that run P25 want good comms and is a good way to keep a limited user set on the air for the reasons you stated. Many that are running CCR wont spend 500-600 on a P25 radio so we keep the users to good quality radio gear. For me I've been in public safety for years. Why have yet another radio in my truck when al my radios are P25 already. You will find alot of the good high end P25 sites are run by a guy who is in public safety or around it enough to see the benefits of the money invested. Nothing against DMR but with the CCR world adding DMR its puts more junk on the air that I dont want to deal with. As said i know some out there are linked and some guys like that. you will also find some linked to other P25 repeaters but no real network talk groups. Basically are linked to give better range on the system. 

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, kb2ztx said:

The issue is as said before the guys that run P25 want good comms and is a good way to keep a limited user set on the air for the reasons you stated. Many that are running CCR wont spend 500-600 on a P25 radio so we keep the users to good quality radio gear. For me I've been in public safety for years. Why have yet another radio in my truck when al my radios are P25 already. You will find alot of the good high end P25 sites are run by a guy who is in public safety or around it enough to see the benefits of the money invested. Nothing against DMR but with the CCR world adding DMR its puts more junk on the air that I dont want to deal with. As said i know some out there are linked and some guys like that. you will also find some linked to other P25 repeaters but no real network talk groups. Basically are linked to give better range on the system. 

One other way to get some exclusivity is picking something like NXDN. Haven't seen any CCR's doing that digital mode yet. I have two radios for it already. One is an HT, NX-340U the other is a mobile, NX-820HG, a freebie from a buddy who didn't want it.

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/05_nx240v_340u_K_1117_typeD added.pdf

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/10_NX-720HG&820HGBrochure.pdf

Both are the 400-470 MHz band split.

There is only one repeater around the Detroit area that is listed as being NXDN enabled. In fact it's the only one listed in the whole sate using "repeaterbook.com" to check.

https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/details.php?state_id=26&ID=390

I know there is a pocket of NXDN activity in the Florida area.

https://ni4ce.org/nxdn-digital-communications/

For P25 these are the only ones listed.

https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/feature_search.php?state_id=26&type=P25

The one closest to me I have equipment for it the machine listed for Warren.

https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/details.php?state_id=26&ID=276

So between the two modes, P25 and NXDN, nether one is widely used around here.

The popular digital modes in Michigan are D-Star, DMR and System Fusion.

There is a wide area coverage System Fusion machine in the down town Detroit area. The antennas are on top of the current GM head quarter building at 775 feet AGL.

http://www.gmarc.org/wp/

[wayoverthere]

2 hours ago, Lscott said:

One other way to get some exclusivity is picking something like NXDN. 

The list of p25 repeaters within 100 miles of me is...pretty long. NXDN on the other hand, 1 with 100 miles, and it takes opening up the search to 200 to find a second. So yeah, NXDN is somewhat exclusive in the middle of CA.

(According to repeater book, anyway)

[gman1971]

I considered P25, but I stuck with DMR b/c XPR radios are just as good as most of the APX radio models at a much smaller pricetag.

G.

[Lscott]

If you shop carefully you can find some good deals. I got this one eBay for $110 on an auction I won, it's a TK-5320.

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/TK-5220_5320_Specsheet.pdf

The radio looked like new, didn't have a scratch on it anywhere, not even a finger print on the display cover. I had to get a power brick to go with the charger base and the radio came with a used 3300mAh Li-Ion battery pack.

[Lscott]

Oh, it's the 400 to 470 MHz band split model. Perfect for Ham Radio's 70cm band and also covers the FRS/GMRS channels too when running analog FM.

[WRNA236]

[deleted]

[gman1971]

11 hours ago, WRNA236 said:

An XPR is to an APX as a CCR is to an XPR. 

And, tell me, do you have data to prove it?

[WRNA236]

{deleted]

[gman1971]

WRNA236,

Respectfully, none of those points put the XPR as bad as you want them to be. The XPR7550e has the best digital receiver I've tested in a radio, and analog performance is about as good as the best APXs radios as well. Oh, and lets not forget the APX900 is basically a rebadged XPR7550e, so your statement is completely unfounded and thus, purely your own opinion, and we all have an opinion.

The enhanced noise suppressor option on these XPR gen2 radios is pretty darn good. In the end, what mattered to me was the receiver performance, which is pretty darn good on those XPR gen2.5 radios. The only feature that only two APX radios have (7k 8k, aside from the useless-to-me body ratings, IP ratings, UL, etc) was having multiband capability, but at 10x cost price hike, I made the decision to stay with XPR radios, b/c the receiver fits the bill to what I need.

So, we are now comparing body ratings too? Lets see..., ah yes, why do I care? I really don't. These XPR radios have survived everything we've thrown at them in day to day operations, and then nature during hikes, water, snow, dirt. Sure, you can argue the screen is cheap plastic, etc, and not gorilla glass... etc... but let me reiterate this again: the only two APX radios I would even consider as an upgrade to my XPR7550e are the APX 7000 and/or 8000, which are 10x the price of a used XPR radio and I am not willing to pay that.  Certainly not for a feature that I've proved (to me) that I didn't really need as everyone tried to mislead me that I needed, (now, that is not the same as I wouldn't mind having it, should it be available)

And back on topic, this is a digital modulation preference thread, not an APX vs XPR bash.

G.

[MacJack]

If you are going to spend this amount of money, why not go all the way and do GMRS. Ham Ham 2 and 70 meter as well as DMR and this unit has Cellular with all kinds of repeater list to use with PL codes....

I'm talking about rFinder.net B1 commercial water proof radio...  http://androiddmr.com  If you have a GMRS and Ham ticket, check it out...

MacJack 

[gman1971]

Most of those Smart radios are pieces of crap, buggy as heck and with piss poor receivers. That is without even mention what kind of backdoors those "smart" radios have... so... thanks, but no thanks.

G.

[Lscott]

4 hours ago, gman1971 said:

but let me reiterate this again: the only two APX radios I would even consider as an upgrade to my XPR7550e are the APX 7000 and/or 8000, which are 10x the price of a used XPR radio and I am not willing to pay that.  Certainly not for a feature that I've proved (to me) that I didn't really need as everyone tried to mislead me that I needed, (now, that is not the same as I wouldn't mind having it, should it be available)

Yeah, I understand that. If somebody gifted me a nice Kenwood NX-5200, 5300 with all three digital modes, NXDN - DMR - P25, enabled I wouldn’t turn that down either.

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/NX-5000_portable_Specsheet_K_02_prnt.pdf

[tweiss3]

9 hours ago, Lscott said:

Yeah, I understand that. If somebody gifted me a nice Kenwood NX-5200, 5300 with all three digital modes, NXDN - DMR - P25, enabled I wouldn’t turn that down either.

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/NX-5000_portable_Specsheet_K_02_prnt.pdf

The NX-5000 are capable of all three digital modes, but can only do two at a time.