Canadian rules RSS210 - GMRS Repeaters in Canada

[Guest TickingMind]

It would seem like the rules for GMRS in Canada are different than FRS rules after reading RSS-210.

They specify that for FRS you cannot have a detachable antenna and your power output can be a max of 500mw. You cannot use a packet store and forward device.

Now, for GMRS they mention nothing about detachable antennas, the power output is higher but again you cannot use a "packet store and forward device".

By interpretation this means things like packet modems, AX.25, things like that. No mention of base operations, repeaters, etc.

So to their word, it is technically legal to operate a repeater in Canada using a GMRS radio on a GMRS channel with the appropriate 5 mhz split.

Glad I really read this publication from the government. It's making sense now.

[Lscott]

14 hours ago, Guest TickingMind said:

ISo to their word, it is technically legal to operate a repeater in Canada using a GMRS radio on a GMRS channel with the appropriate 5 mhz split.

Read section "A6.2.1 Channel Frequencies:". It specifically states

The following 8-channel carrier frequencies are reserved for possible future use as repeater input channels and are not available for simplex communications:
Channel Frequency
16467.5500
17
467.5750
18
467.6000
19
467.6250
20
467.6500
21
467.6750
22
467.7000
23
467.7250

[Guest For simplex....]

Yes, but for simplex. If the input is 467 and the output is 462 it's duplex, so I do not see an issue. They are so vague with policies and regulations, so we just take it as it is.

[n4gix]

The three key words: "possible future use" seem to preclude use until and unless repeater operations are sanctioned.

[Lscott]

2 hours ago, n4gix said:

The three key words: "possible future use" seem to preclude use until and unless repeater operations are sanctioned.

That’s the way I read it as well.

[jwilkers]

Read section "A6.2.1 Channel Frequencies:". It specifically states
The following 8-channel carrier frequencies are reserved for possible future use as repeater input channels and are not available for simplex communications:

Note: not available for simplex communications. This clearly states, it's illegal to use these radios for simplex.

Sent from my SM-A125U using Tapatalk

[Lscott]

15 hours ago, Guest For simplex.... said:

Yes, but for simplex. If the input is 467 and the output is 462 it's duplex, so I do not see an issue. They are so vague with policies and regulations, so we just take it as it is.

That’s not really duplex. It’s simplex operation using split frequencies. 

TX’ing on a 467 frequency and RX’ing on a 462 frequency, well good luck hearing anything since there is no repeater to translate the signal on the 467 frequency down to the 462 frequency you’re listening too.

Off course the other radio could be setup to do the reverse, however trying to use more that two radios just won’t work because one of the other radios will be using the wrong TX and RX frequencies in relation to the other two.

I’ve thought doing something like split frequency simplex to frustrate jammers, at some point in the past, but to accommodate more that two radios requires a more sophisticated method involving fast scanning radios, PL or digital codes to have any hope of getting it to work.

[WyoJoe]

All of this makes me wonder about the legality of using a GMRS radio in Canada to contact other users through a repeater in the U.S.

[Lscott]

5 hours ago, WyoJoe said:

All of this makes me wonder about the legality of using a GMRS radio in Canada to contact other users through a repeater in the U.S.

As far as I know this isn't legal. Also the Canadian GMRS radios, at least the legal ones, don't have access to the 467 repeater input frequencies anyway.

[WyoJoe]

15 hours ago, Lscott said:

As far as I know this isn't legal. Also the Canadian GMRS radios, at least the legal ones, don't have access to the 467 repeater input frequencies anyway.

My guess as well is that it wouldn't be legal. With the 467 frequencies being reserved for "future" repeater inputs, I would assume transmitting on those frequencies wouldn't be legal, but the other part of the picture is the crossing of the U.S./Canada border. I'm not sure what the legalities are in that regard, other than the restricted use areas we have in the U.S.

Obviously, radio waves won't just fall to the ground at the border, so whether intentional or not, users close to the border could very well communicate with each other even if they weren't trying to.

[Lscott]

8 hours ago, WyoJoe said:

My guess as well is that it wouldn't be legal. With the 467 frequencies being reserved for "future" repeater inputs, I would assume transmitting on those frequencies wouldn't be legal, but the other part of the picture is the crossing of the U.S./Canada border. I'm not sure what the legalities are in that regard, other than the restricted use areas we have in the U.S.

Obviously, radio waves won't just fall to the ground at the border, so whether intentional or not, users close to the border could very well communicate with each other even if they weren't trying to.

The Canadians don't have access to the repeater input frequencies, however I haven't found anything that specifically prohibits communications using the common simplex frequencies for cross boarder communications. I could be wrong here. Anybody have any info on this?

[Guest theRadioMan]

Does anyone know, if a Canadian buys a portable repeater directly from someone like retevis, do they know if the Border inspectors automatically confiscate it, because technically based on the current laws there is no use for it in Canada, even on private property. One hears stories of Farmers in the north using repeaters on their own property, but I don't know of those are fables or not. 

IE:

I saw this review, "I recently purchased a RT97. Watched some reviews online and appeared to be the right product for my application. I have several 100 acres of forest in northern Ontario, Canada with many hills and valleys. Cell communication is spotty at best. Radios work until your separated by a hill or valley. This product solved all of my issues. Highly recommend. Make sure to buy the antenna and cable as it is sold separately"

This almost seems like fiction with the current laws.

[WyoJoe]

10 hours ago, Guest theRadioMan said:

Does anyone know, if a Canadian buys a portable repeater directly from someone like retevis, do they know if the Border inspectors automatically confiscate it, because technically based on the current laws there is no use for it in Canada, even on private property. One hears stories of Farmers in the north using repeaters on their own property, but I don't know of those are fables or not. 

IE:

I saw this review, "I recently purchased a RT97. Watched some reviews online and appeared to be the right product for my application. I have several 100 acres of forest in northern Ontario, Canada with many hills and valleys. Cell communication is spotty at best. Radios work until your separated by a hill or valley. This product solved all of my issues. Highly recommend. Make sure to buy the antenna and cable as it is sold separately"

This almost seems like fiction with the current laws.

The RT-97 can be ordered to work within the UHF or VHF ham bands instead of the GMRS band...

Perhaps that's how the reviewer was using it?

[Guest theRadioMan]

Hmm, maybe that is how ha, bands. You can program it for anything you want once you receive it. 

[WRFP399]

On 8/15/2021 at 6:14 AM, n4gix said:

The three key words: "possible future use" seem to preclude use until and unless repeater operations are sanctioned.

I don't know how it works in Canada but my basic understand of US law goes along the lines of "If it isn't expressly forbidden, it is allowed".

 

[Guest WRDT442]

On 8/15/2021 at 11:49 PM, WyoJoe said:

All of this makes me wonder about the legality of using a GMRS radio in Canada to contact other users through a repeater in the U.S.

This instance just happened with a Canadian who contacted me via our US repeater.  This person did not know that the repeater is restricted to use by authorized persons only.  I am authorized and US licensed.  It takes at least a 50 watt radio for me to use my ham radio to use the Canadian ham repeater on 2 meter.  I must assume the Canadian was using more watts than the legal maximum limit of 2 watts.  Prudence is to reluctantly tell my Canadian friends they are NOT allowed to use the Cultus Mountain US repeater on GMRS because they do not have a US license and use of GMRS repeaters in the US are restricted to GMRS Licensed operators.  The Canadian was very nice on air and was proper in radio use except for the lack of a callsign which is required.  The owner of the repeater reviews requests based upon many factors before accepting users.  I hope Canada does change their rules regulating GMRS to be equal to the US so that we can communicate.  I do love holding QSO's with my Canadian friends!

[Guest Ian Casey]

So if I purchase a mobile 50W GMRS in the US to be used in the US, (I hold dual US/CAN Citizenship) I would naturally need to bring it home to Canada but could not legally use it in Canada unless I powered it down to IC rules.   Would the CBSA confiscate it?  Sounds like they are already well in use in Canada anyway.

[WRWT868]

It's extremely doubtful CBSA confiscate it but Canada may be a sovereign nation they can do whatever they want. You are asking the wrong people call CBSA to get your info from the horse's mouth. Even then take the info with a grain of salt. I'll give a personal example I was born in Canada but have lived in the state for 99% of my life. Back in 1990, I lost my wallet, license, SS card, and credit cards the works.. Getting a new driver's license was a piece of cake, replacing credit and debit cards was relatively easy.

A replacement SS card not so much.. I went to the local SS office and the lady took my info and said I'd receive a replacement card in a week or two. I waited and waited but no card.. I called them up and was informed I was not an American citizen. I had to make a dozen or so phone calls until someone could tell me what to do. Which was contact the American Consulate in Toronto which had the original document filed by the State Department stating I was an American citizen born aboard.. So I had to make a dozen more phone calls navigating Canadian bureaucrats. Finally, I was able to get the document I needed. I went to the local SS office and applied for an SS card. The lady said we don't accept the document you have as proof of American citizenship..

Luckily I read the SS form carefully and at the bottom of the SS card application form it stated the form I had from the state department was a valid proof of citizenship and was valid to use to get a replacement SS card. I showed this to the SS lady and her response was, "Oh I didn't know that I had never seen one of those before", and with the press of a key on the keyboard, I was an American citizen again. After two months of fighting bureaucratic idiots.

The moral of this story is when you are dealing with the government any government you are dealing with idiots so use extra caution.. 

[Lscott]

30 minutes ago, WRWT868 said:

and with the press of a key on the keyboard, I was an American citizen again.

You ever watch that movie "Born in East L.A." ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_in_East_L.A._(film)