Building a 300' VS 500' free standing radio tower. Advise needed?

[JB007Rules]

Preface:  This question is cross-posted on the Midwest GMRS Facebook page.

EDIT:  Preface 2:  If this is in the wrong forum area, I apologize in advance.  I wasn't 100% sure I put it in general; please move it if it's wrong.

EDIT AGAIN:  I think lots are misunderstanding why we're doing this.  No, we're not going to spend a million dollars to install one GMRS repeater.  This will be a public tower which we will rent tower space out to for anyone who needs tower space.  This is a way to make money for us but also, we'll have our own tower so why wouldn't we put up a massive repeater? :).  I own Rugged 575 myself which is a 300' tall GMRS repeater and I pay tower space for that so that game I know VERY well and have well covered.  This is one of the next projects we have is all.

 

Question to other repeater owners and more importantly tower owners about commercial tower pricing:

 

My business partner and I are getting quotes to build a free-standing radio tower in Magnolia, TX.  I have a quote from Rohn for 300’ and 500’ self-supporting.  We have enough room for a guyed tower so we’ll consider that too but we would much prefer free standing.

 

The 300’ one in particular isn’t as expensive as I’d thought at $133,935 + $19,980 for lighting, delivery, and anchor equipment.  This also isn’t including installation which they didn’t quote me like they did on the 500’ one below.  Maybe half of that would be let’s say $200,000 for the foundation + maybe $40,000 for install which brings the total roughly to $394,000

 

VS the 500’ is a whopping $476,920 + $46,930 for lighting, delivery and anchor equipment.  They did quote $83,765 for install for the 500’ guy and $400,675 for “Foundation Installation - Drilled Pier (Caisson) based on Presumptive soil” which brings the total to $924,525 for the 500’ guy

 

Anyways we’re considering 500’ over the 300’ one because we want the larger tower.  My question to you is, besides Rohn, what other companies can I get competitive quotes on for 300’ and 500’ towers?  What brand are your towers? 

 

Notes about the tower type:

 

This Structure is designed for:

Design Code: ANSI/TIA-222-H

Wind Speed: 125 MPH per ASCE 7-16

Wind Speed With Ice: 30 MPH with 1.00 inches Ice

Risk Category II

Exposure Category: C

Topographic Category: 1

 

Price above includes:

Tower Sections

Step Bolts for Climbing

Tuf Tug Safety Cable Type System w/o Trolley or Harness for One Leg Only

(1) 5ft Lightning Rod w/4ft Extension (no downlead)

(1) Base Grounding Lug per Leg - Grounding Materials to be supplied by Others

(1) 12-Hole Waveguide Ladder w/3ft spacing (Tower Base to Top)

Top Beacon Plate w/o Extension - see Optional Items for pricing on Lighting Kit

 

I have the actual PDF quote as well if anyone needs to see it as well.  Please send me a PM.

 

We plan on using this tower not only for a big honkin' GMRS repeater, but also for private business radios, local state and federal com systems and for cell phone providers + microwave backhauls, etc.

 

Thanks for your time and Happy Thanksgiving!

[gortex2]

Valmont Structures

As far as towers, the civil work is just as crucial as the actual tower. Most towers will want environmental studies done ahead of time also to determine the condition of the soil which in turn will tell what the foundations need. Both a 300 & 500 is going to require caissons. Grounding, electrical and local permits is another thing you need to verify. 

 

[JB007Rules]

Thank you!

I also reached out to my tower owner where my repeater is on and he recommended Valmont and Sabre as well

[Radioguy7268]

You're also going to need FAA clearance being that tall. I'd recommend getting a consultant like Steel in the Air to do a feasibility study. They can give you a realistic idea of what the market is in your general area, what the going price is for cellular, and they can also tell you about any local towers that might be your market competition for leases. If it's all owned by American Tower or Crown Castle, you've probably got some room to maneuver and get under their pricing.

There's an aspect of "if you build it, they will come" - but most people building new towers have one or two carriers in their pocket, meaning they're guaranteed some income right from the start and they won't go broke if they don't load the tower to full capacity within a year or two.

Most of the cellular carriers aren't interested in huge coverage areas any more. 4G and 5G start to drop their data speeds once you get more than a few miles out. I'd be surprised if they're interested in going any higher up than 150 -200 ft.

Not sure what the zoning is like in your area, but I'd want to have a conversation with whoever is in charge and take their temperature before you commit to anything. I've seen zoning stuff add years to a build timeline. Especially if you need to get lawyers involved. 40 years ago, it wasn't too hard to put up a tower where you wanted it. Now, it's hard enough to put up a tall tower at all, let alone put it where you actually want/need it.

Good luck with it.

[wayoverthere]

On 11/24/2021 at 7:32 PM, Radioguy7268 said:

Not sure what the zoning is like in your area, but I'd want to have a conversation with whoever is in charge and take their temperature before you commit to anything. I've seen zoning stuff add years to a build timeline. Especially if you need to get lawyers involved. 40 years ago, it wasn't too hard to put up a tower where you wanted it. Now, it's hard enough to put up a tall tower at all, let alone put it where you actually want/need it.

Good luck with it.

One of the towers out here (that hosts utilities and various levels of public safety, in addition to ham repeaters) is currently fighting through the post fire rebuild process...despite assurance from the county that everything would be allowed to be rebuilt to pre-fire state, they've disallowed an extension that was approved and added, and are letting the neighbors (that came after the tower) shove in their objections and roadblocks to rebuilding at all

[JLeikhim]

Preface:  This question is cross-posted on the Midwest GMRS Facebook page.
EDIT:  Preface 2:  If this is in the wrong forum area, I apologize in advance.  I wasn't 100% sure I put it in general; please move it if it's wrong.
EDIT AGAIN:  I think lots are misunderstanding why we're doing this.  No, we're not going to spend a million dollars to install one GMRS repeater.  This will be a public tower which we will rent tower space out to for anyone who needs tower space.  This is a way to make money for us but also, we'll have our own tower so why wouldn't we put up a massive repeater? .  I own Rugged 575 myself which is a 300' tall GMRS repeater and I pay tower space for that so that game I know VERY well and have well covered.  This is one of the next projects we have is all.
 
Question to other repeater owners and more importantly tower owners about commercial tower pricing:
 
My business partner and I are getting quotes to build a free-standing radio tower in Magnolia, TX.  I have a quote from Rohn for 300’ and 500’ self-supporting.  We have enough room for a guyed tower so we’ll consider that too but we would much prefer free standing.
 
The 300’ one in particular isn’t as expensive as I’d thought at $133,935 + $19,980 for lighting, delivery, and anchor equipment.  This also isn’t including installation which they didn’t quote me like they did on the 500’ one below.  Maybe half of that would be let’s say $200,000 for the foundation + maybe $40,000 for install which brings the total roughly to $394,000
 
VS the 500’ is a whopping $476,920 + $46,930 for lighting, delivery and anchor equipment.  They did quote $83,765 for install for the 500’ guy and $400,675 for “Foundation Installation - Drilled Pier (Caisson) based on Presumptive soil” which brings the total to $924,525 for the 500’ guy
 
Anyways we’re considering 500’ over the 300’ one because we want the larger tower.  My question to you is, besides Rohn, what other companies can I get competitive quotes on for 300’ and 500’ towers?  What brand are your towers? 
 
Notes about the tower type:
 
This Structure is designed for:
Design Code: ANSI/TIA-222-H
Wind Speed: 125 MPH per ASCE 7-16
Wind Speed With Ice: 30 MPH with 1.00 inches Ice
Risk Category II
Exposure Category: C
Topographic Category: 1
 
Price above includes:
Tower Sections
Step Bolts for Climbing
Tuf Tug Safety Cable Type System w/o Trolley or Harness for One Leg Only
(1) 5ft Lightning Rod w/4ft Extension (no downlead)
(1) Base Grounding Lug per Leg - Grounding Materials to be supplied by Others
(1) 12-Hole Waveguide Ladder w/3ft spacing (Tower Base to Top)
Top Beacon Plate w/o Extension - see Optional Items for pricing on Lighting Kit
 
I have the actual PDF quote as well if anyone needs to see it as well.  Please send me a PM.
 
We plan on using this tower not only for a big honkin' GMRS repeater, but also for private business radios, local state and federal com systems and for cell phone providers + microwave backhauls, etc.
 
Thanks for your time and Happy Thanksgiving!

You need to factor in the expected tower loading into the design. You could end up with 500 feet but unusable vertical real estate because a potential customer might want dishes and several collinear antennas. Also waveguide and transmission lines eat into the loading.

500 feet might be attractive for a broadcast antenna but unnecessary for LMR.

You will find that larger transmission lines will be needed to have same ERP at 500 vs 300 feet. Antenna preamplifier will certainly be needed at 500 feet.

Do a market survey to see who might be a potential client and the height they desire. Otherwise you have a half million dollar hobby,

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

[JLeikhim]

By the way, if you are planning on a super GMRS repeater, consider installing a JPS SNV-12 voter and two or three diversity antennas and receivers on site.

You can pick up 5 to 7 dB effective gain on the receive side this way.

Bear in mind, it is only practical for a single CTCSS tone unless you break out the tone path and use some transmission gates and logic to steer the tones to a community repeater panel. Your mileage may vary...

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

[JB007Rules]

Thanks for all the info on this!  So far the FAA has denied my entry thus far!  More to come later!!

[DONE]

OK, sorry but I am gonna sit here and rip all this apart and make you question why you even CONSIDERED this idea. And at the end of it you will thank me.

First off.  What sort of business study did you do?  Do you have prospective clients?  Have you done an ASR search or even rented an 80 foot man lift jumped in it and went up to see how many towers are in the 2 mile radius of the proposed tower site?  How many roof mounted antenna's are there (prospective customers)?  If there are other towers in the area what sort of loading do they have?  Or are they occupied at all?

300 vs 500 vs 190 or less

Do you HAVE a signed contract for a commercial broadcaster?  If not what the hell do you want with a 500 foot tower?  NO ONE is going to want to go on the top of that stick that's NOT a commercial broadcaster.  First issue is you can't hardly get a commercial two-way license with that sort of AGL antenna height.  a Typical FB2 (fixed base / repeater) license is going to give the license holder a 20 or 30 km radius from the point of the transmitter site.  Commercial radio is NOT like ham or GMRS where you talk as far as you are able legally.  You can only operate inside your radius and you CAN get fined if you exceed that.  The best way to limit that is to install a system that will self limit it's coverage by keeping the antenna below a certain height.  Now this height will vary depending on topography, but unless you are in a 400 foot deep valley and have little interest in local coverage, parking antennas at 500 foot is pointless.   300 feet is getting back into a reasonable height and 180 is even better for MOST of the current radio technology that is going the small cell route for coverage.  Low antenna's, low power and multiple sites.  So 500 foot would be maybe 250 foot of usable height and another 250 of unoccupied steel that you are going to be paying for. 

Tower classification for lighting and height

Tower's have lighting requirements based on height.  The shorter the tower the less lighting it needs and the less upset people get (the FAA) when the lights are out. 

Towers to 350 feet are the first class.  It then goes to 499.  After 499 it frankly gets expensive and watched closely.  And something as simple as a relamp can cost thousands of dollars to get a tower crew to do.  Then you have to pay for a monitoring service at that classification as well.  Not to mention that a single D1 strobe will cost 100 bucks a month in electric.  A multihead high intensity system for a 500 foot tower is WAY more.  You did say you have a SIGNED contract for a tenant right??

 

Dropping to 190

If you drop the height to 180 which would legally allow for an antenna that has a tip 18 feet above the mount point and a ground rod to extend above it, you have NO lighting requirements in most instances unless you are within a certain distance of an airport.  And before you get it in your head that you need the height for talking distance. I have a GMRS repeater that on a good day will talk 60 miles from the transmitter site and the antenna is at 110 feet.  This is in OHIO so it's not sitting on some 10000 foot elevation mountain top.  The AMSL is 1350 at the ground.  The tower is 240 foot total height to the tip of the lightning rod. 

I have dealt with repeaters with sky high antenna's.  There is a 1092 foot tall tower in Columbus that has two UHF repeaters at 750 feet.  The repeaters are up there to minimize line loss.  They talk great.... in Dayton and Springfield.  But NOT at all in Columbus because the near field coverage from the antenna's never reaches the ground.  Gain is too high on the antenna's.  So they will talk to the helicopter, but NOT a road vehicle.  Something to consider with your 500 stick.

The other thing with broadcast is power output, and wasted space on the tower.   Any broadcast, be it radio or TV is gonna be high power,  Meaning the commercial radio stuff will need to be several hundred feet BELOW the top of the stick where the broadcast antenna is.  That offset is wasted space.  Nothing can go there.  So you either try to charge the tenant for the wasted vertical real estate or you eat the loss.  Another things to consider.

Better plan

If you have property that will support a tower in a marketable area you need to approach the major players in the vertical real estate business and see if they are interested in installing a tower at YOUR location with them footing the bill for the construction.  If there is market, they will be all over it... and that's what they do.  If there is no market they will have no interest.  That makes the math a lot simpler when trying to figure out if you want to lay out 250K on a tower build. 

And DO NOT forget a shelter, generator and the other added expenses of a tower in the total cost.  Your quotes probably do NOT include that stuff.

 

[gman1971]

@WRKC935, thanks for the information. 

In regards to "approaching the major players", wouldn't a commercial tower flood your property with extra RF exposure? Not sure if high power transmitters would be ideal to have near your place of residence... 

Thoughts?

G.

[BoxCar]

Other than radio or TV the only service that would want to be high on that tower would be a paging company.

[Radioguy7268]

To quote my teenage daughter: "What's a pager?" 

I used to see thousands of dollars in monthly income from paging companies.  Now I see zero.  I had an abandoned 900 MHz Glenayre cabinet for years that I kept around due to the 300 watt amplifier it had. Finally got a hammy to buy it for $75. Paging is dead. 

[SteveShannon]

10 hours ago, gman1971 said:

I have dealt with repeaters with sky high antenna's.  There is a 1092 foot tall tower in Columbus that has two UHF repeaters at 750 feet.  The repeaters are up there to minimize line loss.  They talk great.... in Dayton and Springfield.  But NOT at all in Columbus because the near field coverage from the antenna's never reaches the ground.  Gain is too high on the antenna's.  So they will talk to the helicopter, but NOT a road vehicle.  Something to consider with your 500 stick.

 

@WRKC935, thanks for the information. 

In regards to "approaching the major players", wouldn't a commercial tower flood your property with extra RF exposure? Not sure if high power transmitters would be ideal to have near your place of residence... 

Thoughts?

G.

Based on WRKC935’s second paragraph in the section “Dropping to 190”, it sounds like with a high gain antenna, there’s probably an RF null beneath the tower and for some distance around. The pattern of the antenna directs the RF outward, closer to horizontal, rather than up or down. 

[gman1971]

1 hour ago, Radioguy7268 said:

To quote my teenage daughter: "What's a pager?" 

I used to see thousands of dollars in monthly income from paging companies.  Now I see zero.  I had an abandoned 900 MHz Glenayre cabinet for years that I kept around due to the 300 watt amplifier it had. Finally got a hammy to buy it for $75. Paging is dead. 

I am not sure if they are totally dead, I think the 151-154 region still gets hammered real good with those things if you are nearby the hospitals, RSSI used to go through the roof back last time I measured RSSI....

But last time I was in the hospital I think they are moving towards all digital stuff, the necklace with PTT and a screen... not sure what band those operate on... but its unlikely they are VHF... so who knows.

G.

[WROZ250]

On 11/24/2021 at 8:32 PM, Radioguy7268 said:

There's an aspect of "if you build it, they will come" - but most people building new towers have one or two carriers in their pocket, meaning they're guaranteed some income right from the start and they won't go broke if they don't load the tower to full capacity within a year or two.

Most of the cellular carriers aren't interested in huge coverage areas any more. 4G and 5G start to drop their data speeds once you get more than a few miles out. I'd be surprised if they're interested in going any higher up than 150 -200 ft.

 

This is an extremely valid point. 

With all of the changes in technology, it's the lower sites that are attracting customers.  As Radioguy7268 notes, cellular carriers would have zero interest in such a high tower.  Not to mention they typically want to control the site (their written contracts are full of legal weasel wording to ensure that).

Indeed, other than perhaps a broadcaster, (some) public safety, and Amateur radio, there really isn't a need or desire for such heights.  Public safety is migrating to newer technologies where, like cellular, there is no need for towers over 150-200ft, again as Radioguy7268 stated. 

Even in Amateur radio, most frequency coordinators would likely deny a repeater on such a site/height because the coverage would in many cases, overlap with co-channel users.

Not saying you can't make money building such a tower, but your return on investment would likely take longer than the tower would last.  You'll need a  LOT of paying customers to make money.

Good Luck

 

[DONE]

Need to stick something else in here since someone else brought it up.  DO NOT even THINK that amateur radio clubs or individuals are going to want to PAY ANYTHING to be on a tower.  They get it in their head that they are somehow providing some critical public service by being hams that they are entitled to free tower space. 

Then when they get it you need to ride them like a rented mule to get them to clean up their installs to something resembling a commercial level install at your site.  NOT requiring them to do so will get coax runs flopping in the wind, hap hazard line runs in the building and all other sort of crap that is NOT acceptable in a commercial communications facility.  I am not saying that ALL hams are like this, but there are damn few that will do it right.  And when you have a prospective commercial paying client doing a site walk through and the see it.  They are typically NOT going to be coming to your site. 

Specific to what Steve said concerning the high gain antenna's on a short tower.  It's not as much of an issue because the low gain antenna's near field will put them in to the pattern by if nothing else 'brute force' of the signal.  This is why you can talk on a repeater that has a dummy load attached to it if you are in the building with it or are really close.  And there are ways to deal with high gain antenna's on tall towers.  It requires power dividers and low gain antenna's lower on the tower to cover the near field that is missing from the main antenna.  Problem is it costs additional money that no one is typically willing to spend, at least at first.  Then when the customer figures out that it will help their close in coverage, they approach the tower owner and he quotes additional cost due to it requiring additional vertical real estate (occupies tower space) and add's to the tower loading (weight and wind load).  So they see an additional 3 to 5 hundred in monthly cost and they back away.  Then at the end of the contract, instead of moving their antenna's down on the tower where it would be effective, they decide that the owner is screwing them and they leave the site all together.  The tower owner has done NOTHING wrong, but the customer, not being familiar with vertical real estate practices, has decided that they are getting taken advantage of. 

Cell carrier's don't do this sort of stuff, because they know the game.  BUT cell carriers are masters of the game.  And THEY play it all the time, everywhere.  They know what they are willing to pay and what they SHOULD pay, and there is no discussion on that number outside maybe 10%.  And ONLY if they are really wanting on that site. 

 

One piece of advice that you might think on is this.  There are pieces of equipment called transmit combiners and receive multi-couplers.  These devices allow for a number of repeaters to be installed on a specific set of antenna's on a specific band.  Meaning VHF, UHF or 800.  The receive ones can be expanded to connect a large number of receivers in a band pass but the transmit ones are limited to maybe 8 transmitters per antenna. And this is for UHF.  The VHF situation is much more difficult to deal with as the splits from TX to RX on VHF vary wildly and often overlap.  But if you are marketing PORTS, you eliminate the need to install specific antenna's per customer, which reduces their cost.  You limit your assigned vertical real estate that's occupied, and tower loading which means you have MORE space to rent.  That reduced cost to the tenant is significant.  A typical antenna install with line and tower crew is 5 to 10 thousand depending on how high, and the market you are in. 

This is how I am running 2 GMRS repeaters and have the ability to put 2 more on the air by simply programming the repeaters and connecting them up to the equipment.  And I have a second combiner that will allow my to install 4 MORE repeaters on ham or commercial frequencies by tuning the combiner and connecting the repeaters to the combiner and receive multi-coupler.

[DONE]

15 hours ago, gman1971 said:

@WRKC935, thanks for the information. 

In regards to "approaching the major players", wouldn't a commercial tower flood your property with extra RF exposure? Not sure if high power transmitters would be ideal to have near your place of residence... 

Thoughts?

G.

That's actually part of the reason that broadcasters have tall towers.  Yes, there CAN be a problem with RF exposure with a high power transmitter.  That's why the radiation takes place high in the air so the exposure is limited.  It's also why a typical tower site that is high power is very large with respect to the actual footprint of the tower.  They will buy up large chunks of land to sit empty so that they don't have issue later with a housing development being parked next to their tower and the FCC showing up, doing exposure testing and requiring them to reduce power or raise their antenna's.

There are exposure charts on the FCC site that will show whats legal for power level and antenna gain and height.

 

[DONE]

So I spoke to one of my tower site owner friends and this is specifically what he had to say.

I've been in the tower leasing business for nearly 30 years and my opinion is that it would be very difficult for someone to get into the tower leasing business today. I built 12 towers between 1994 and 2001 and all 12 ended up getting cellular tenants. 25 years ago it was possible to get some cooperation from the cellular companies regarding where they needed to improve coverage, today that is impossible unless you are running a 100 million dollar company with 5000 towers. Today, the cellular providers simply WILL NOT give you new site build locations or help you in any way. I know this to be true because I have been trying to get a dialog going with the cell companies for 20 years now.

The cellular companies have sweetheart deals with about a dozen very large tower companies and give their new site builds only to them and nobody else. You could argue that a small startup tower company with less overhead could potentially build a new tower and potentially lease it to a cell company at a lower lease rate than what the big tower companies are charging but they simply do not care.

So, if you go and build a 500' tower somewhere, or a 250' tower, or any other height without having a commitment from some type of tenant you are taking a huge risk. You might get lucky and have a tenant express interest in your new tower a year later, or 3 years later, or 10 years later. Or, you might end up with no tenants, ever.

As was mentioned by others in this discussion, if you build a new tower in any area other than one that is extremely remote and undeveloped you will need to deal with local zoning regulations and permitting. Many jurisdictions now have tower removal requirements which means that, if you build a new tower and nobody uses it for 12 months or 18 months or some similar timeframe your conditional use permit which allowed you to build the tower will be revoked and you will be legally forced to dismantle your tower.

If you have a lot of money burning a hole in your pocket my advice is to build new houses or apartment buildings, not towers.

 

That is from a guy with actual experience in playing the game with vertical real estate. And while he is a guy ON the Internet.... he's NOT JUST some guy voicing his opinion without first hand experience.  And neither am I.  I am also a tower site 'co-owner' and manage the site.  I have contacts in the communications field because I work in that field and have clients that are also tenants on various tower sites including the one I manage. 

 

I am not gonna tell you to NOT do this.  I am gonna tell you that you REALLY need to think about what you are going to do, and be realistic.  If the FAA has not granted you a build permit for a 500 foot tower, you are NOT going to get to go that high.  I would consider refiling at a lower height and see if they allow it.  But I wouldn't file any higher than 250 feet.  I don't know where this site is with regard to an airport or a municipality that will have zoning requirements.  You have a NUMBER of different regulatory entities that can shut you down with this whole thing and the possibility that even after the tower is up require you to remove it if you don't get tenants on it within a specified amount of time.  There are ways around that, and if you get to that point let me know and I will share that info with you.  But it costs MORE money in licensing and equipment that you will most likely NOT want to invest to keep the tower standing as it's all donation to the same government entities that are wanting you to REMOVE said tower but are done at a federal level that is out of their reach. 

 

And you need to consider this.. vertical real estate leasing is in some ways just like the leasing of buildings and homes.  You will NEVER make money with only one site in the long term.  You will have times that the site has no income or not enough income to be self sustaining.  This is a tax write off to a point, but only to a point.  Insurance, property taxes and the like can be written off.  But other business expenses like electricity can't most of the time.  Point is if you DON'T know what you are getting into, don't assume that if you build it they will come.  Because they may not.  And a tower site has a limited number of prospective clients to begin with unlike an apartment building where anyone looking for a roof over their head is a prospective tenant.