60 FT Guyed Antenna Mast Materials?

[jdomer222]

 

I have gathered all kinds of information thus far, but one thing I am having a very hard time figuring out is how I can make a tall base station antenna mast.  The city I live in allows 70ft amateur radio antennas without a special permit, and I think every foot of that would be beneficial for my local terrain.  I intend to align it with the peak of my roof (25ft) resting on the concrete patio below.  The first 25 ft will be held to the house with probably 3 brackets.  Above that I plan to send 2 guy lines anchors to the opposite corners of the roof, and 2 more line anchors down to the ground below.  I think the guys will be spaced about every 10 ft (probably 4 points on the mast for the roughly 35 ft of mast above the roof level - then a 9 ft antenna at the top).

Can I use chain link fence top rail for this and drill and but and bolt each joint?  The only thing I have seen so far is a telescoping mast that reaches about 44 ft, or a 50ft fiberglass one that hits 50 ft.  I cannot find any construction information for a mast this tall.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Edited February 7, 2022 by jdomer222
Clarify that 60 ft mast is my question, not specifically fence rail.

[PACNWComms]

10 minutes ago, jdomer222 said:

Can I use chain link fence top rail for this and drill and but and bolt each joint?

I am sure you will get an abundance of information on this site. To get you started though, use pipe that is intended for an antenna mast. Here are examples of what are easily and cheaply found online. https://www.cableandwireshop.com/50-foot-telescopic-push-up-antenna-mast-ez-tm-50.html

 

[jdomer222]

9 minutes ago, PACNWComms said:

I am sure you will get an abundance of information on this site. To get you started though, use pipe that is intended for an antenna mast. Here are examples of what are easily and cheaply found online. https://www.cableandwireshop.com/50-foot-telescopic-push-up-antenna-mast-ez-tm-50.html

 

Thank you for your suggestion.  That is exactly what I was referring to that I found, but I would prefer to figure out a way to get to 60ft rather than 44.

[WROZ250]

21 minutes ago, jdomer222 said:

I am very new to radio, and I am getting in deep very quickly.  I have two HTs, another one on the way, a mobile setup in one vehicle, a radio and power supply for a base station.  I listen to the local big repeater whenever I gets chance... I got it bad.

I have gathered all kinds of information thus far, but one thing I am having a very hard time figuring out is how I can make a tall base station antenna mast.  The city I live in allows 70ft amateur radio antennas without a special permit, and I think every foot of that would be beneficial for my local terrain.  I intend to align it with the peak of my roof (25ft) resting on the concrete patio below.  The first 25 ft will be held to the house with probably 3 brackets.  Above that I plan to send 2 guy lines anchors to the opposite corners of the roof, and 2 more line anchors down to the ground below.  I think the guys will be spaced about every 10 ft (probably 4 points on the mast for the roughly 35 ft of mast above the roof level - then a 9 ft antenna at the top).

Can I use chain link fence top rail for this and drill and but and bolt each joint?  The only thing I have seen so far is a telescoping mast that reaches about 44 ft, or a 50ft fiberglass one that hits 50 ft.  I cannot find any construction information for something this tall using fence top rail.

Thank you in advance for your help.=

Unfortunately, I am not intimately familiar with chain link fencing hardware, although it looks like it would do the job... 

That said, I've experimented with a lot of DIY masts using off the shelf hardware and many of these items will work.  However, as strong as some material/pipe appears, once it is vertical with an antenna on it, you find out very quickly that it isn't what you expected.  If you do this, guy wires are definitely going to be a 'must have' and, I think what you have planned may very well be sufficient, unless you live in an area with frequent high winds.

As PACNWComms noted, you may be better off with a mast intended for this purpose.

FWIW, my current DIY mast is only 25Ft (AGL) made from 2 inch, off the shelf 'conduit' (Home Depot), and it absolutely requires guy wires. It's predecessor of the same design, without guys, looked like it was perfect for the job, but eventually flexed so much under the load, that it snapped at the base.  What is out there now still gives me concerns and ultimately it is going to be replaced with a a 25ft, free standing, Rohn tower.  It's easy and financially attractive to go with other materials from the local hardware store but, in the end, it may be cheaper to just bite the bullet so to speak, spend the money and use something designed for the job. 

For example, ask yourself, how much did you spend on your antenna?  I watched $110 of antenna drop and get shattered.  That alone was aggravation, not to mention the cost of a new (DIY) mast and the time to re-erect it.  I was lucky still, as my hardline was undamaged.


Just one person's opinion (experience)...

[jdomer222]

16 minutes ago, WROZ250 said:

Unfortunately, I am not intimately familiar with chain link fencing hardware, although it looks like it would do the job... 

That said, I've experimented with a lot of DIY masts using off the shelf hardware and many of these items will work.  However, as strong as some material/pipe appears, once it is vertical with an antenna on it, you find out very quickly that it isn't what you expected.  If you do this, guy wires are definitely going to be a 'must have' and, I think what you have planned may very well be sufficient, unless you live in an area with frequent high winds.

As PACNWComms noted, you may be better off with a mast intended for this purpose.

FWIW, my current DIY mast is only 25Ft (AGL) made from 2 inch, off the shelf 'conduit' (Home Depot), and it absolutely requires guy wires. It's predecessor of the same design, without guys, looked like it was perfect for the job, but eventually flexed so much under the load, that it snapped at the base.  What is out there now still gives me concerns and ultimately it is going to be replaced with a a 25ft, free standing, Rohn tower.  It's easy and financially attractive to go with other materials from the local hardware store but, in the end, it may be cheaper to just bite the bullet so to speak, spend the money and use something designed for the job. 

For example, ask yourself, how much did you spend on your antenna?  I watched $110 of antenna drop and get shattered.  That alone was aggravation, not to mention the cost of a new (DIY) mast and the time to re-erect it.  I was lucky still, as my hardline was undamaged.


Just one person's opinion (experience)...

To clarify, my goal is not necessarily to go as cheap as possible, but to get to 60 ft in height with a mast.

 

I could use one of those telescoping poles and start it 15 feet up the side of the house, but I was hoping to have it start from the ground to be sturdier.

[WROZ250]

1 hour ago, jdomer222 said:

To clarify, my goal is not necessarily to go as cheap as possible, but to get to 60 ft in height with a mast.

 

I could use one of those telescoping poles and start it 15 feet up the side of the house, but I was hoping to have it start from the ground to be sturdier.

Personally, I think starting at the ground and using the side of the house would be a good move.  However again, the second issue is securely attaching an extension (assuming you want height) to the first.  Not sure what that pipe is made of (Galvanized Steel?), so maybe some sort of fitting and perhaps welding would be in order.  You still need a proper guy wire system even with the attachment to the side of the house.

All that said, and since you cannot get away without a guy wire system, it's probably best to start by purchasing a proper mast.  60ft may not sound high, but when talking about a mast, that's pretty high, especially when you attach something other than a wire antenna and, the last thing you want is that mast collapse and fall and perhaps damage your roof ($$$).

It's a tough call and I do feel you pain so to say.  As I noted previously, I'm going with a 25ft free standing tower once the weather improves and, unfortunately where I live, the permits get filed (I need a farm! LOL!).

Just one opinion.

Good Luck in any event!

[PACNWComms]

3 hours ago, jdomer222 said:

To clarify, my goal is not necessarily to go as cheap as possible, but to get to 60 ft in height with a mast.

My original link was to get you started, seeing what it takes to get a safe mast that can be 60 (or more) feet high. Rohn makes many different sizes of towers. However, that height does require more than what you could probably get at Home Depot, or expect from chain link fence poles. However, it is your money, house, property, etc. Advice is advice, you can take it or leave it. https://www.cableandwireshop.com/rohn-45gsr-tower-4-foot-short-base-section-r-45gsrsb.html Poke around the website, or others, but Rohn is a very respected company in the industry of radio antenna masts. 60 feet is higher than what many people need, want, can afford. Depending on location, you may need permits, lights, painting the mast, and other items as well. Also, height should include the length of the antenna you wish to put on this mast, and the base that is going to be used. Good luck with your installation, be sure to post pictures whenever you complete the project, a 60 foot tower is something that I would be interested in seeing. 

[gman1971]

Hi,

 60' feet above the ground, for just a mast, and not a tower, I recommend, like others, using the house or the tallest property structure for support and/or to start the mast there, so you can reduce the amount of actual mast you'll need to raise to get to the desired height. I honestly think going with a 2-bay or 4-bay folded dipole will also produce very good results even with something that isn't above 50 feet. Also I recommend acquiring a good radio to be mated to this antenna, as it will be exposed to all kinds of RF from nearby super high power transmitters, so a cheap radio might be more detrimental to your range aspirations.

If you must start on the ground, then I would use 10' foot galvanized water pipe steel sections, starting from the thickest diameter you can find, either 1 1/2 inch or 2 inch, etc, using the thicker tube as a sleeve for the next smaller section, like a telescopic antenna. At 60 feet, do not thread things with couplers, or they will snap, and trust me, its not pretty when that happens. As for guying, I would use two guy wires per direction, one at 40% of the height, and one at 95% of the height in a triangular 120 degree fashion. To raise this I would use a vehicle, along with a 10 foot section as fulcrum to get it off the ground, along with a helper so the pipe doesn't bend too much when first being raised.

Source: I've done this myself.

G.

[gortex2]

And also remember the cable cost. 60' mast means at minimum 75' of cable to get you in the house. RG/LMR is most likely not the best option here. You really want LDF hardline which will cost almost or more than your mast. As was stated earlier 60' is on the edge of a mast. I would start looking at tower sections. Rohn is solid performer and 50' with a 10' mast of aluminum would be ideal. Still needs guyed but will stay up much longer than pipe bolted together. Budget everything you need and decide if 60' is really what you need. 

 

[jdomer222]

53 minutes ago, gman1971 said:

Hi,

 60' feet above the ground, for just a mast, and not a tower, I recommend, like others, using the house or the tallest property structure for support and/or to start the mast there, so you can reduce the amount of actual mast you'll need to raise to get to the desired height. I honestly think going with a 2-bay or 4-bay folded dipole will also produce very good results even with something that isn't above 50 feet. Also I recommend acquiring a good radio to be mated to this antenna, as it will be exposed to all kinds of RF from nearby super high power transmitters, so a cheap radio might be more detrimental to your range aspirations.

If you must start on the ground, then I would use 10' foot galvanized water pipe steel sections, starting from the thickest diameter you can find, either 1 1/2 inch or 2 inch, etc, using the thicker tube as a sleeve for the next smaller section, like a telescopic antenna. At 60 feet, do not thread things with couplers, or they will snap, and trust me, its not pretty when that happens. As for guying, I would use two guy wires per direction, one at 40% of the height, and one at 95% of the height in a triangular 120 degree fashion. To raise this I would use a vehicle, along with a 10 foot section as fulcrum to get it off the ground, along with a helper so the pipe doesn't bend too much when first being raised.

Source: I've done this myself.

G.

Thank you for your suggestions.

Do you have any radio suggestions?  I don't know where to find something "commercial." Right now I am thinking a Wouxun KG-1000g with power supply.

[jdomer222]

24 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

And also remember the cable cost. 60' mast means at minimum 75' of cable to get you in the house. RG/LMR is most likely not the best option here. You really want LDF hardline which will cost almost or more than your mast. As was stated earlier 60' is on the edge of a mast. I would start looking at tower sections. Rohn is solid performer and 50' with a 10' mast of aluminum would be ideal. Still needs guyed but will stay up much longer than pipe bolted together. Budget everything you need and decide if 60' is really what you need. 

 

Thank you for the cable suggestion.  I want to do the install as well as I can up to a point... I haven't figured an exact total budget, but a tower will definitely be too expensive (and more of an eyesore I think).  If that is what would be required I would rather just go lower.

[gortex2]

If you want an LMR style rig look for a M1225 or CM300. the other great GMRS radio is the CDM1250/1550 but watch the 1550. There are a few models and one only has limited conventional support. The 1250 is a rock solid unit and can be had for under $100 if you shop around. 

[gman1971]

This is what I would get to start, should you decide to try this route, PM me, and I'll help you get started.

Radio CDM1550 UHF: https://www.ebay.com/itm/125105278398?hash=item1d20db0dbe:g:VLIAAOSw1mBhbyCH

Microphone (DTMF mic for the CDM1550): https://www.ebay.com/itm/302350359152?hash=item46657c5a70:g:LukAAOSwmLlYBXr3

Power cable (standard for all Moto radios): https://www.ebay.com/itm/224581351109?hash=item344a1776c5:g:G6YAAOSwrKlhIZS8

Programming cable (Verified works): https://www.ebay.com/itm/153254242963?epid=20051160527&hash=item23aeaa2a93:g:aj4AAOSwWelfZB5W

G.

[gman1971]

@gortex2 I think the suggested CD1550 in my previous post would work, but could you please corroborate if the radio will in fact work?

This is the link to the eBay auction: https://www.ebay.com/itm/125105278398?hash=item1d20db0dbe:g:VLIAAOSw1mBhbyCH

 

Thanks!!

G.

[gortex2]

That appears to be the 160 Ch so should be the proper one. I don't have my programming PC in front of me to check a code plug with that model.

Some good info in this post from before also - CDM1550LS+

[PACNWComms]

1 hour ago, gortex2 said:

the other great GMRS radio is the CDM1250/1550 but watch the 1550. There are a few models and one only has limited conventional support.

While I use Motorola CDM1550LS+ radios for GMRS, I know a few people that bought versions that were only 16 channel analog, so great advice here. Had I not owned them already (CDM1550LS+) I would have used CDM-1250's instead. They can be had for about $150 or so from SunnyComm, great vendor I have used a lot, and others online.

[PACNWComms]

1 hour ago, gman1971 said:

@gortex2 I think the suggested CD1550 in my previous post would work, but could you please corroborate if the radio will in fact work?

This is the link to the eBay auction: https://www.ebay.com/itm/125105278398?hash=item1d20db0dbe:g:VLIAAOSw1mBhbyCH

 

Thanks!!

G.

That is a 160 Ch Analog model. Same as what I use. Then it is just having CPs and the programming cable and time to program as needed. Great radios for GMRS. AAM25RKF9DP6AN

[jdomer222]

I'm pretty new at all of this.  Are UHF radios legal (within the rules) to transmit on GMRS channels?  I was under the impression that it had to be an actual GMRS radio.

Sorry this has turned into a "help a newb set up a base station" thread instead of just an antenna mast thread, but I really appreciate all of the suggestions.

I think for the mast I will plan on installing on top of the roof instead so the mast doesn't have to be as tall, and I am considering either this antenna https://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=191_193_258_976_250_1096&products_id=8031 or the shorter 5 dbd version for half the price.  If I am calculating correctly either version at that height would get at least a -3db signal at about 300 ft from the house.

[wayoverthere]

4 hours ago, jdomer222 said:

I'm pretty new at all of this.  Are UHF radios legal (within the rules) to transmit on GMRS channels?  I was under the impression that it had to be an actual GMRS radio.

Sorry this has turned into a "help a newb set up a base station" thread instead of just an antenna mast thread, but I really appreciate all of the suggestions.

I think for the mast I will plan on installing on top of the roof instead so the mast doesn't have to be as tall, and I am considering either this antenna https://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=191_193_258_976_250_1096&products_id=8031 or the shorter 5 dbd version for half the price.  If I am calculating correctly either version at that height would get at least a -3db signal at about 300 ft from the house.

The short explanation is that the current rules (95e) require a radio to be locked out of transmitting any non-certified service (ham). However, there are radios certified under the previous version (95a) that can. Overwhelmingly, these are dual certified (90/95a) commercial/lmr gear. Motorola and Kenwood have a few models between them, and I know of one vertex (vx4207). I believe Kenwood may still have some dual certified stuff in production, though not sure if it's 95a or 95e.

In all cases, if you're after dual use, you have to watch your frequency ranges; 450-512 or so are more common, good for gmrs but not for ham, though there is gear out there with lower ranges that cover both too (I have some 400-470 vertex stuff, which they usually append -G6 after the model number, while 450-512 is -G7, with D0 being vhf...my base is a VX-4207-G6).

 

[BoxCar]

The rules are pretty absolute about what is and isn't legal for GMRS. The truth of the matter is little enforcement is done currently so using a non-certified radio is quite common. Used Business or Public Safety radios can be purchased from many dealers and E-Bay but they aren't as flexible for changing the configuration if a different station/repeater is set up different than what your radio is currently. A lot of the amateur equipment that works in the FRS/GMRS channels can be reconfigured from the front panel or through microphone controls to handle different repeaters on the same frequency.

[gman1971]

There you go, the VX-4207 sounds like the radio I'll start proposing for GMRS from now on... thanks @wayoverthere it goes right through the CCR crowd argument to buy CCR trash because of part certification scare stuff... music to my ears... and I own a lot of Vertex Standard stuff... its pretty good, in fact, my main base digital link uses a pair of EVX-5300 radios... so there you go.

Here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/234009379037?hash=item367c0bc0dd:g:Q20AAOSwXFhgnvHz Its a G7, but it will work just fine for GMRS. And at 100 bucks its cheaper than most CCR trash too... awesome! I might have to get me one...

Just avoid all these cheapies that claim to offer more "flexibility" in the sake of a piece of crap receiver... piece of crap receiver = range measured in tenths of a mile, as opposed to tens of miles...

IMO, if you are going to go through the trouble of putting up a 60 foot mast/tower, might as well get a decent radio to go along with it. 

G.

[wayoverthere]

While I get the usefulness of flexibility for mobile use (and why people will sacrifice other things for it), there's definitely ways to work around it. it's even less of an issue for a base setup, where locations arent changing a lot (causing a need to change tones) and you can have easy access to a computer.

[gman1971]

5 hours ago, jdomer222 said:

I'm pretty new at all of this.  Are UHF radios legal (within the rules) to transmit on GMRS channels?  I was under the impression that it had to be an actual GMRS radio.

Sorry this has turned into a "help a newb set up a base station" thread instead of just an antenna mast thread, but I really appreciate all of the suggestions.

I think for the mast I will plan on installing on top of the roof instead so the mast doesn't have to be as tall, and I am considering either this antenna https://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=191_193_258_976_250_1096&products_id=8031 or the shorter 5 dbd version for half the price.  If I am calculating correctly either version at that height would get at least a -3db signal at about 300 ft from the house.

If you are going to sink 400+ bucks on an antenna, get a commscope DB-404. Get this:

https://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4267

Don't waste your money on ANY verticals, they all suck for simplex because they are all cloud warmers, as the main lobe fires upwards with a takeoff angle and not towards horizon like half wave dipole arrays do. People will say that EZNEC says X Y Z, but then always verify with reality, sometimes those antenna modeling programs are not as accurate as real life is. I've measured RSSI strength in a Hustler G7, which the modeling curve shows almost horizontal radiation angle, its on VHF but its the same idea, its +6 dBd gain vertical antenna, but measured a whopping 18 dBm lower RSSI than a mere single half wave dipole with 1.85 dBd at the same 5 mile distance. So there you go, papers and equations can tell you whatever... real life usually disagrees, so measure everything in the real world too. If real life disagrees, means something is missing from those equations.

G.

 

[jdomer222]

1 hour ago, gman1971 said:

If you are going to sink 400+ bucks on an antenna, get a commscope DB-404. Get this:

https://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4267

Don't waste your money on ANY verticals, they all suck for simplex because they are all cloud warmers, as the main lobe fires upwards with a takeoff angle and not towards horizon like half wave dipole arrays do. People will say that EZNEC says X Y Z, but then always verify with reality, sometimes those antenna modeling programs are not as accurate as real life is. I've measured RSSI strength in a Hustler G7, which the modeling curve shows almost horizontal radiation angle, its on VHF but its the same idea, its +6 dBd gain vertical antenna, but measured a whopping 18 dBm lower RSSI than a mere single half wave dipole with 1.85 dBd at the same 5 mile distance. So there you go, papers and equations can tell you whatever... real life usually disagrees, so measure everything in the real world too. If real life disagrees, means something is missing from those equations.

G.

 

Would I be able to put something that heavy on a mast like I am planning on erecting, or would it require a proper tower?

I guess my mast is going to be more like 30-40 ft since I am now planning to put it on top of a 25 ft roof peak rather than on the ground.

[jdomer222]

10 hours ago, gortex2 said:

If you want an LMR style rig look for a M1225 or CM300. the other great GMRS radio is the CDM1250/1550 but watch the 1550. There are a few models and one only has limited conventional support. The 1250 is a rock solid unit and can be had for under $100 if you shop around. 

 

10 hours ago, gman1971 said:

This is what I would get to start, should you decide to try this route, PM me, and I'll help you get started.

Radio CDM1550 UHF: https://www.ebay.com/itm/125105278398?hash=item1d20db0dbe:g:VLIAAOSw1mBhbyCH

Microphone (DTMF mic for the CDM1550): https://www.ebay.com/itm/302350359152?hash=item46657c5a70:g:LukAAOSwmLlYBXr3

Power cable (standard for all Moto radios): https://www.ebay.com/itm/224581351109?hash=item344a1776c5:g:G6YAAOSwrKlhIZS8

Programming cable (Verified works): https://www.ebay.com/itm/153254242963?epid=20051160527&hash=item23aeaa2a93:g:aj4AAOSwWelfZB5W

G.

Please excuse my ignorance, but is there a reason other than value for these radio recommendations?  I have a kg-1000g in a vehicle that I like some of the features of...and I considered potentially using one as a base station radio because I couldn't find info on any 110v gmrs radios.  Are all of the options going to pretty much be repurposed 12vdc mobile units for gmrs?

 

Thanks again for all of the help.  I don't know anyone personally who is knowledgeable about radios, and though I've learned a fair amount just researching, I still feel like I know so little that I don't even know the right questions to ask yet!

[gman1971]

@jdomer222 Yes, the UHF DB-404 is much smaller antenna than a 2-bay VHF dipole, which I was able to raise just fine on a mast. The 404 I don't think its that heavy. Make sure you guy it, tho; a non-guyed 35 foot pole up in the air, with a 4-bay dipole atop will not take much wind...  You could also run the cable inside the pole using two 90 degree ends, and T couplers on the pole, which is what I've done. So the cable is not visible except for where it mates to the antenna phasing harness.

G.