Neighborhood repeater question(s)

[tdukes]

Hello!

OK, so I've been in this for 2 months now and definitely not an expert. Know enough to be dangerous.

I'm retired and have a lot of time on my hands. I plan to setup a neighborhood repeater with two HTs and an amp that should give me 35 -40 watts of power on the TX side. I have a repeater controller, Surecom SR-328. It works. No duplexer yet, but its on the list.

I'm working on moving this setup outside and have a weatherproof enclosure on the way as well as a solar charger.

So, my question is this. If I use this for personal use, I don't have to broadcast my call sign every 15 minutes. But if I allow others, I do.

I'm on several repeaters and I have never heard the call sign transmitted. Is this something in-audible?

Found this piece of software from a YT video, http://f6dqm.free.fr/soft/simplex/en/simplex.htm , that might do the ID for me if I connect a HT and to a PC. It may as well had been written in a foreign language as I do not know all the terminology. Anyone know how to do this?? I have a .wav file with my call sign in morse code I'd like to broadcast.

TIA

[KAF6045]

One... The ID requirement is not "every 15 minutes" but at least once in each 15 minute window in which the repeater has been activated. If no one is using the repeater, it doesn't have to ID. The timer starts when access is made (even a mere "kerchunk"), does NOT reset on accesses within that fifteen minute period, and expires at the end of the time, when the ID is emitted.

If the tones are not published (and you monitor the repeater to ensure someone doesn't sniff out the tones [some radios have "tone-search" functions]) but are set in radios used by you and immediate family operating under your callsign AND these users ID with your callsign, it is taken as sufficient to also ID the repeater.

Official regulations are https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E cf:

• 95.1705 (c) (2) (definition of immediate family)
• 95.1751 (a) (1) & (2) (frequency of ID)
• 95.1751 (b) (valid forms for the ID)
• 95.1751 (c) (1) & (2) (repeater non-ID conditions)

I tried to access the help file by downloading the ZIP archive -- but all that displays for me is the main topic menu... NO HELP TEXT! So you are on your own with regards to what is possible in DUPLEX mode.

 

[marcspaz]

So, two things come to mind.  One is, your repeater doesn't have to ID itself as long as the users are ID'ing.  If someone doesn't ID... tell them they are not allowed to use the machine.

 

The other being there are no part 95 certified amplifiers.  Repeater owners do occasionally get site visits from the FCC for inspection.  I doubt you would get more than a verbal to stop using it (if anyone actually came by), but in my opinion, the risk isn't worth the benefit.  Especially because there is almost no practical difference in rang or quality of communications between 15-20 watts and 50 watts.  Your money is much more well spent in buying a great antenna system and doing what it takes to reduce losses on the transmission line.

 

With that said, you can buy a proper/real type approved or grandfathered type 90 repeater for a touch more money than you are already planning on, but it will have the tech to support heavy use if needed.  Some are as cheap as $400... a great commercial grade might be around $1,500. 

 

I would recommend searching the forum and talking to some of the active repeater owners on the site to get a better idea of what to expect.  I have a 25w continuous duty repeater that was built from two transceivers.  It cost me about $1,000 for everything.

[KAF6045]

3 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

So, two things come to mind.  One is, your repeater doesn't have to ID itself as long as the users are ID'ing.  If someone doesn't ID... tell them they are not allowed to use the machine.

Said user's must be under the repeater owner's license (and hence call sign). Other license holders ID'ing doesn't qualify -- the ID MUST be that of the repeater owner.

Quote

It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates; and,

Does not say anyone with permission granted by the license holder, but are operating under the license of the holder... Which, given earlier regulations, means "immediate family" (I disregard the clause about allowing others to use the station under EMERGENCY situations -- That clause basically appears in every FCC service class and allows anyone to use pretty much any means to obtain aid, licensed or not).

[marcspaz]

@KAF6045,  you must take all of the rules collectively into consideration.  Not just one half of one qualifier in one sub-part of a sub-section.  For example, § 95.1705 (f) allows for legal station sharing.  That is why owners setup clubs and/or have you request sharing access of the repeater in writing (via email or the web app here on MyGMRS.com, for example).  The request and approval become part of the station record.  The licensees who are sharing the repeater operate under their own license... therefore, no special ID system is required.

 

The only time a repeater requires an ID is if it is an open repeater... meaning it's not private or shared, but rather open to the public for any licensed operator, without written agreement or record.  If @tdukes plans on sharing, he's fine with no ID.  If he plans on providing an "open system", then it will need an ID.

[SteveShannon]

3 hours ago, marcspaz said:

@KAF6045,  you must take all of the rules collectively into consideration.  Not just one half of one qualifier in one sub-part of a sub-section.  For example, § 95.1705 (f) allows for legal station sharing.  That is why owners setup clubs and/or have you request sharing access of the repeater in writing (via email or the web app here on MyGMRS.com, for example).  The request and approval become part of the station record.  The licensees who are sharing the repeater operate under their own license... therefore, no special ID system is required.

 

The only time a repeater requires an ID is if it is an open repeater... meaning it's not private or shared, but rather open to the public for any licensed operator, without written agreement or record.  If @tdukes plans on sharing, he's fine with no ID.  If he plans on providing an "open system", then it will need an ID.

Marc,

I just want to understand.  So if I buy an RT97, which has no way to incorporate an automated ID, is it your interpretation that if I have written record showing that I’ve shared it with someone, the repeater is legally identified when they use their call sign, thus making an auto ID unnecessary?

So, I could understand that if I had it as a loaner:  This weekend I take it camping and I use it to speak with all the members of my family who may operate under my GMRS license. Next weekend my good friend Marc picks it up and takes it with him to use to talk to his family under his license.

But what about those times when you and I want to use it to chat with each other.  Naturally you and I identify ourselves using our own call signs, but how does the repeater get identified?  Does it get identified when I use my call sign and re-identified when you use your call sign?  Kind of like a Sybil, a repeater that is identified using multiple call signs?

Or is this when the repeater is being used as an open repeater and so we have to also ID the repeater using my call sign (since I’m the owner)?

Thanks,

[tdukes]

8 hours ago, marcspaz said:

@KAF6045,  you must take all of the rules collectively into consideration.  Not just one half of one qualifier in one sub-part of a sub-section.  For example, § 95.1705 (f) allows for legal station sharing.  That is why owners setup clubs and/or have you request sharing access of the repeater in writing (via email or the web app here on MyGMRS.com, for example).  The request and approval become part of the station record.  The licensees who are sharing the repeater operate under their own license... therefore, no special ID system is required.

 

The only time a repeater requires an ID is if it is an open repeater... meaning it's not private or shared, but rather open to the public for any licensed operator, without written agreement or record.  If @tdukes plans on sharing, he's fine with no ID.  If he plans on providing an "open system", then it will need an ID.

I had plans to have it be an open repeater but have been thinking about not doing that for reasons you just stated. I would like to know who's using it and that they are licensed to operate a GMRS radio. There are plenty of yahoos out there unlicensed. I heard some this past weekend burping and farting over the radio. Not going to tolarate that. Just not cool or even funny!

[tdukes]

9 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

One... The ID requirement is not "every 15 minutes" but at least once in each 15 minute window in which the repeater has been activated. If no one is using the repeater, it doesn't have to ID. The timer starts when access is made (even a mere "kerchunk"), does NOT reset on accesses within that fifteen minute period, and expires at the end of the time, when the ID is emitted.

If the tones are not published (and you monitor the repeater to ensure someone doesn't sniff out the tones [some radios have "tone-search" functions]) but are set in radios used by you and immediate family operating under your callsign AND these users ID with your callsign, it is taken as sufficient to also ID the repeater.

Official regulations are https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E cf:

• 95.1705 (c) (2) (definition of immediate family)
• 95.1751 (a) (1) & (2) (frequency of ID)
• 95.1751 (b) (valid forms for the ID)
• 95.1751 (c) (1) & (2) (repeater non-ID conditions)

I tried to access the help file by downloading the ZIP archive -- but all that displays for me is the main topic menu... NO HELP TEXT! So you are on your own with regards to what is possible in DUPLEX mode.

 

I d/l a second copy yesterday to install the software on a laptop I planned to use. It also didn't have the help file. The copy I d/l a couple weeks ago and install on a desktop did so I don't know what happened.

Anyway, here it is in case anyone is interested.

The part that I'm scratching my head over is the PTT configuration under the Port menu.

 

simplex_en.chm

[KAF6045]

Don't know what may be causing it, but that file also shows up empty on my system.

11 hours ago, marcspaz said:

@KAF6045,  you must take all of the rules collectively into consideration.  Not just one half of one qualifier in one sub-part of a sub-section.  For example, § 95.1705 (f) allows for legal station sharing. 

I'd interpret the first clause in 95.1705 (f) (1) "individually owned by the licensee" to fall into the ID'ing requirements for the licensee -- that is, the SINGLE call-sign on the license of the owner, though "jointly owned by the participants and the licensee" may fall into a gray area. I suppose 95.1751 (c) (2) might be the clause that covers the "sharing" arrangement -- though I, personally, would want explicit clarification from the FCC before I'd set up a repeater in that mode.

For me, setting up a repeater would likely only be useful as OPEN: ULS shows there are only 10 GMRS licensees in Lowell (49331) area code (one 550 feet from my location). And all but one are 4x3 calls. Guess which is the exception . (I also have an FRN that starts with three 0s)

[gortex2]

14 hours ago, tdukes said:

Hello!

OK, so I've been in this for 2 months now and definitely not an expert. Know enough to be dangerous.

I'm retired and have a lot of time on my hands. I plan to setup a neighborhood repeater with two HTs and an amp that should give me 35 -40 watts of power on the TX side. I have a repeater controller, Surecom SR-328. It works. No duplexer yet, but its on the list.

I'm working on moving this setup outside and have a weatherproof enclosure on the way as well as a solar charger.

So, my question is this. If I use this for personal use, I don't have to broadcast my call sign every 15 minutes. But if I allow others, I do.

I'm on several repeaters and I have never heard the call sign transmitted. Is this something in-audible?

Found this piece of software from a YT video, http://f6dqm.free.fr/soft/simplex/en/simplex.htm , that might do the ID for me if I connect a HT and to a PC. It may as well had been written in a foreign language as I do not know all the terminology. Anyone know how to do this?? I have a .wav file with my call sign in morse code I'd like to broadcast.

TIA

By the time you buy all the parts you can but a RT97 thats made to do what you want....

[marcspaz]

7 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Marc,

I just want to understand.  So if I buy an RT97, which has no way to incorporate an automated ID, is it your interpretation that if I have written record showing that I’ve shared it with someone, the repeater is legally identified when they use their call sign, thus making an auto ID unnecessary?

So, I could understand that if I had it as a loaner:  This weekend I take it camping and I use it to speak with all the members of my family who may operate under my GMRS license. Next weekend my good friend Marc picks it up and takes it with him to use to talk to his family under his license.

But what about those times when you and I want to use it to chat with each other.  Naturally you and I identify ourselves using our own call signs, but how does the repeater get identified?  Does it get identified when I use my call sign and re-identified when you use your call sign?  Kind of like a Sybil, a repeater that is identified using multiple call signs?

Or is this when the repeater is being used as an open repeater and so we have to also ID the repeater using my call sign (since I’m the owner)?

Thanks,

 

I am not a lawyer and I am not offering anyone legal advice.  I am simply sharing my opinion of my interpretation of the rules.  This information is strictly 'use at your own risk'.

 

Hey Steve... the disclaimer is not directed at you, but some knucklehead out there may make it necessary.  T

The situation in your example is a little different than what we are discussing, in that you are talking about borrowing and physically taking possession of a radio combined with sharing a station.  That is a bit more complex, but the rules apply the same.

 

FCC Rule §95.1705 (f) is titled "Cooperative use of GMRS stations."  It says "GMRS licensees may share the use of their stations with other persons eligible in the GMRS, subject to the conditions and limitations in this paragraph."  So, to start, this means we can share, but with limits. 

 

Sub-part (1) say "The GMRS station to be shared must be individually owned by the licensee, jointly owned by the participants and the licensee, leased individually by the licensee, or leased jointly by the participants and the licensee. "  That tells us that only someone who actually owns the repeater can establish sharing.  I am a sharing use of my friend's repeater hear in VA, but I have no ownership over it. So I can't establish a sharing agreement for someone else to share it, only my friend can.

 

Sub-part (2) says that "The licensee must maintain access to and control over all stations authorized under its license. "  Meaning my friend, the owner of the station/repeater must maintain control of the station.  So, while I am using it, my friend still have enforcement capabilities as to who uses it and when.

 

Sub-part (3) isn't relevant to the current discussion, but sub-part (4) states "All sharing arrangements must be conducted in accordance with a written agreement to be kept as part of the station records."  Meaning, we can just have verbal agreement.  If there is a site audit, we need documentation of whom is allowed to share the repeater.

 

So, understanding those guidelines... lets look at your use case.

7 hours ago, Sshannon said:

So if I buy an RT97, which has no way to incorporate an automated ID, is it your interpretation that if I have written record showing that I’ve shared it with someone, the repeater is legally identified when they use their call sign, thus making an auto ID unnecessary?

 

Yes, based on my understanding of the aforementioned rules, that is correct.

 

8 hours ago, Sshannon said:

So, I could understand that if I had it as a loaner:  This weekend I take it camping and I use it to speak with all the members of my family who may operate under my GMRS license. Next weekend my good friend Marc picks it up and takes it with him to use to talk to his family under his license.

 

As I understand the rules, that is also correct.

 

8 hours ago, Sshannon said:

But what about those times when you and I want to use it to chat with each other.  Naturally you and I identify ourselves using our own call signs, but how does the repeater get identified?  Does it get identified when I use my call sign and re-identified when you use your call sign?  Kind of like a Sybil, a repeater that is identified using multiple call signs?

 

To my understanding, when we are chatting with each other, the repeater is considered properly identified when either of us ID.  However, because we are both using other radios in the string, it still requires both of us to ID so we stay compliant with our local transmitters.  Not just the repeater.

 

8 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Or is this when the repeater is being used as an open repeater and so we have to also ID the repeater using my call sign (since I’m the owner)?

If you use the repeater as an open repeater, it would have to transmit your ID every 15 minutes of use or at the end of a single or string of brief transmissions.  You can automate it or if you are monitoring it do it manually by voice.

[marcspaz]

29 minutes ago, KAF6045 said:

I'd interpret the first clause in 95.1705 (f) (1) "individually owned by the licensee" to fall into the ID'ing requirements for the licensee -- that is, the SINGLE call-sign on the license of the owner, though "jointly owned by the participants and the licensee" may fall into a gray area. I suppose 95.1751 (c) (2) might be the clause that covers the "sharing" arrangement -- though I, personally, would want explicit clarification from the FCC before I'd set up a repeater in that mode.

For me, setting up a repeater would likely only be useful as OPEN: ULS shows there are only 10 GMRS licensees in Lowell (49331) area code (one 550 feet from my location). And all but one are 4x3 calls. Guess which is the exception . (I also have an FRN that starts with three 0s)

 

I would always support the idea of getting clarification on actions that are not clear and cause concern.  Though, I would discuss stuff like this with a lawyer, not the FCC employees.  Most FCC employees would do no better at interpreting the rules than any of us would.

[kirk5056]

I am not a expert but.....

It seems to me that the FCC ID belongs to the person not the radio.  So if the person TXing IDs then the ID requirement is met.  So regardless of how many individual radios the TX goes through as long as that person IDs the should satisfy the requirement.

[marcspaz]

9 minutes ago, kirk5056 said:

It seems to me that the FCC ID belongs to the person not the radio.  So if the person TXing IDs then the ID requirement is met.

Based on my understanding, I agree.  The fact that the FCC never asks us what radio we are using nor what radios we own as it relates to qualifying for a license.  Also, the fact that there is a provision for allowing station sharing, rather than a limitation on sharing, I have to suspect your statement is true. 

 

However, as I mentioned previously, we have to take the rules as a whole... so there are some requirements (limits) beyond simply ID'ing with your call sign that need to be met.

 

[KAF6045]

1 hour ago, kirk5056 said:

It seems to me that the FCC ID belongs to the person not the radio.

Yet Part 95 E reads "Each GMRS station must be identified by transmission of its FCC-assigned call sign" which implies the call sign is part of the station, not the operator (though other parts read "individual who holds an individual license may operate his or her GMRS stations" which has "stations" PLURAL -- so each HT, mobile, etc. is a separate station yet all are covered by one license/call).

A further bit of evidence for the call sign belonging to the station(s) and not the operator is the text of the license itself, which explicitly reads "Radio Station Authorization" and then specifies the licensee.

In contrast, an Amateur license reads "Amateur Radio License <callsign>" and further down the page has boxes for "Operator Privilege" AND "Station Privilege". The license is for both operator and station as distinct features. Amateurs using someone else's station should ID with their call AND the station call (especially when the operating privileges are different and the station is being operated outside of the licensee privileges).

[kirk5056]

I agree that the FCC talks about "stations" but I see no station licenses.  I would read that to mean that the PERSON'S ID is also IDing which ever radio (or radios in repeater mode) that person is operating.  

When I do range testing on several radios I do not re-ID with each radio I use.  I announce my ID once per frequency then move around the radios I am testing.

But I am not an expert.....

[KAF6045]

13 minutes ago, kirk5056 said:

But I am not an expert.....

Well, neither am I but... As a (former) software engineer, I've developed a tendency for literal and strict interpretations...

"... station...identified by...it's FCC... call sign", under a strict/literal interpretation, means the call sign goes with the station(s), and not the operator (though as the licensee is an individual, it may seem to belong to the individual... but again, the "immediate family" clause allowing family to use the station(s) under that call sign points to it being a station call-sign, with the licensee responsible for who operates using that call).

 

 

{Further examination of the Amateur regulations is that "station privileges: primary" means they may operate stations under their operator privilege level. Club and Military Recreational station licenses only grant a station call-sign but, especially in the case of MilRec stations, does not grant operation privileges and the licensee/trustee doesn't need to be a licensed operator -- the user of the station needs to have a license with operator privileges (for Amateur, that also means station:primary privileges); I've been browsing the other FCC regulations just to see if I can find examples that might clarify Part 95 E. Maritime seems a mess -- examine:

Quote

A ship station is licensed by rule and does not need an individual license issued by the FCC if the ship station is not subject to the radio equipment carriage requirements of any statute, treaty or agreement to which the United States is signatory, the ship station does not travel to foreign ports, and the ship station does not make international communications. A ship station licensed by rule is authorized to transmit radio signals using a marine radio operating in the 156-162 MHz band, any type of AIS, any type of EPIRB, and any type of radar installation. All other transmissions must be authorized under a ship station license. Even though an individual license is not required, a ship station licensed by rule must be operated in accordance with all applicable operating requirements, procedures, and technical specifications found in this part.

Taken literally, a small yacht on the Great Lakes does not need a license so long as it doesn't stop at a Canadian port!?!}

[gortex2]

I know there are valid points from all but this is an awful lot of discussion about a repeater that may cover a mile.....

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, gortex2 said:

I know there are valid points from all but this is an awful lot of discussion about a repeater that may cover a mile.....

That’s exactly why people participate in forums, to discuss. Plus, everything learned here can be applied elsewhere.  Everyone has different priorities; we shouldn’t dismiss discussions based on coverage, but I understand the feeling that some discussions go on far longer than their sell by date.  I would love to find an Ignore Thread button so I could permanently disregard the “Radio Hatred” dumpster fire. To each their own.

[WRKC935]

Yeah, lots of discussion trying to sort this out.

FCC requires each station to ID.

A repeater is a station, if the owner / license holder and those directly authorized by that specific license (family members) are the only ones using the repeater, then no ID is required.  If another license holder uses that station, then the station (repeater), owned by another license holder, is activated the station (repeater) must ID with the owners call sign. 

I know this is one of those topics that gets beaten around on here every so often.  And maybe it's in the manner that you want to interpret the FCC regulations.

Honestly, it's just easier to have the dumb thing ID and error on the side of caution.

 

Using HT's with an amplifier as a repeater.  There 's a TON of wrong there.  But part of this is learning.  And folks that do this will learn why it's a bad idea.  So I ain't gonna go there.

 

[marcspaz]

I have to be honest... I own a repeater with no ID, but never had a site inspection. However, one of my friends has a repeater on every pair and none of them ID. He has had several inspections over the years at all of his locations and even without his systems ID'ing, his system were found compliant. One of the systems has been on the air for 17 years.

 

It may be anecdotal, but I'm pretty sure under the private and share use clauses, they don't have to ID in those conditions. 

 

Again, just my opinion and sharing second hand info... but there it is.

 

  

2 hours ago, WRKC935 said:

Honestly, it's just easier to have the dumb thing ID and error on the side of caution.

 

I actually really like this idea and generally agree... but my repeater system doesn't support automated ID, nor can one be added without some serious engineering on my part.  This is pretty common for an inexpensive repeater.

 

 

[gortex2]

I guess that was my point. Some discussions get wrapped around the axle for days or weeks. We have thousands of folks using GMRS with no licenses. Following best practices and doing what you can as a licensed user is all you can do. I have no ID on any of my repeaters and as your friend had multiple inspections by the FCC with no issues.