UHF repeaters

[gortex2]

Without getting into the debate on Part 90 vs 95 figured I'd list some basic Repeaters for UHF that would be good base units if your shopping for new.

Low Power

RT97 - List Price - $536 (Sale Price - $371.99) - https://www.retevis.com/rt97-portable-gmrs-repeater-mobile-repeater#A9150CX1

Midland MRX10 - List Price - $ 459.00 - https://midlandusa.com/products/midland-mxr10-repeater

Mid Power

Bridgecomm BCR-40U - List Price $1499.00 - https://www.bridgecomsystems.com/collections/amateur-radio-repeaters/products/bcr-40u

ICOM FR6300H - List Price $1819.00 - https://theantennafarm.com/shop-by-categories/radios/repeater-systems/uhf-repeaters/11680-icom-fr6300h-detail

Kenwood NXR-810K - List Price - $1770.00 - https://theantennafarm.com/shop-by-categories/radios/repeater-systems/uhf-repeaters/9640-kenwood-nxr-810k-detail

Motorola SLR5700 - List Price $ 3700.00 - https://theantennafarm.com/shop-by-categories/radios/repeater-systems/uhf-repeaters/9581-motorola-slr5700-detail

To be noted none of the mid power repeaters come with a duplexer. That will tac on another $300 and up depending on what you purchase. 

 

Granted there are many UHF part 90 repeaters used on the market that can be had for way less money than above but wanted to list new prices. If your searching online and someone is advertising a GR1225 on GMRS for $1000 I'd think twice. For mid power I have no experience with the Bridgecomm or the new NRX (however have many of the older Kenwood) units. Just wanted to put some info in one location. 

The low power units are nice because they basically work out of the box. I also realize the prices on the mid power units look high when your comparing to some of the CCR world but they will outlast pretty much all the home brewed stuff as they are built to do what they are. 

Some used older stuff that can be had reasonably are the Vertex VXR Series, Motorola GR1225, Motorola MTR2000, Motorola Quantar, Kenwood TKR850, Midland Base Tech II (Was a solid unit), ICOM FR4000 and the Motorola XPR series.

[SteveShannon]

Thank you.

[WRUE951]

You left out the Wouxon KG-1000 and better yet the Maxon TM8000 series radios, which is basically the Bridgecomm repeater for half the cost.   

[gortex2]

I left the KG1000 off the list as its not a repeater. Its a mobile radio. The goal was to give folks out of the box repeaters.

If we got into radios to make repeaters there would be hundreds but they all require 2 radios, controllers, cables and programming. 

 

 

[PACNWComms]

23 hours ago, gortex2 said:

Motorola XPR series.

+1 on slightly used Motorola XPR8300/8400 repeaters. These can often be had from Sunny Communications with a duplexer for a very reasonable price. They also have the Aeroflex/Viavi test equipment to make sure they work before selling them. 

[gortex2]

Yup. Purchased alot of used gear from Sunny for our SAR team. Also shipped him a pallet of gear in the past. Good guys.

[WRUE951]

4 hours ago, gortex2 said:

I left the KG1000 off the list as its not a repeater. Its a mobile radio. The goal was to give folks out of the box repeaters.

If we got into radios to make repeaters there would be hundreds but they all require 2 radios, controllers, cables and programming. 

 

 

Just saying,  many of the repeaters you listed consist of two radios bundled into one package and at over twice the cost of building a repeater from basically same parts.  As said the Bridegroom Repeaters are two Maxons 8200A's.  Motorola and Kenwood do the same using their line of radios..  As far as programing goes, it is still needed regardless if you package them together in one box or use them as two radios.  One box repeaters are nice for simplicity but you pay the premium for that benefit.  I almost bought a Bridgecom repeater then after research i learned what radios they used and went with the Maxons.  My Maxon investment was about $800 which saved a a gloruius $,1000 bucks  over the one box Bridgcomm..  I like saving money.    

[gortex2]

So other than the Bridgecomm I can say for 100% none of the new repeaters I linked are 2 mobile radios inside a box. They are full blown repeaters. This is why I posted those repeaters. If Bridgecomm is 2 mobiles inside they don't talk about that in the programming of the repeater. You hook up the cable and program the code plug in the repeater per their video here on their site. 

I realize there are many "mobile" based repeaters that can be built and are even sold however the repeaters I linked are true repeaters. Many folks don't have the technical ability to assemble multiple radios so that's why I put the links here. 

 

 

I realize there are many "mobile" based repeaters that can be built and are even sold however the repeaters I linked are true repeaters. Many folks don't have the technical ability to assemble multiple radios so that's why I put the links here. 

[VETCOMMS]

On 1/20/2023 at 8:05 AM, PACNWComms said:

+1 on slightly used Motorola XPR8300/8400 repeaters. These can often be had from Sunny Communications with a duplexer for a very reasonable price. They also have the Aeroflex/Viavi test equipment to make sure they work before selling them. 

With the XPR 8300 vs 8400 is the main difference that the 8400 can switch between analog and digital (mixed mode) wheras the 8300 can do analog or digital but cannot switch between the two modes?

[jhouse]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:29 AM, WRUE951 said:

Just saying,  many of the repeaters you listed consist of two radios bundled into one package and at over twice the cost of building a repeater from basically same parts.  As said the Bridegroom Repeaters are two Maxons 8200A's.  Motorola and Kenwood do the same using their line of radios..  As far as programing goes, it is still needed regardless if you package them together in one box or use them as two radios.  One box repeaters are nice for simplicity but you pay the premium for that benefit.  I almost bought a Bridgecom repeater then after research i learned what radios they used and went with the Maxons.  My Maxon investment was about $800 which saved a a gloruius $,1000 bucks  over the one box Bridgcomm..  I like saving money.    

A very timely post!  I just connected a Retevis RT97 with an attic antenna about 25' high at the base of the antenna and am getting 1.2 SWR using 50' of LMR240. Some of the line of site calculators show I should be getting 6 miles +/- but I'm not even getting a mile reliably.  This is an urban area with lots of two-story houses and mature trees (for my area) right at the same height of all the surrounding two-story houses. An exterior mount is not an option.  My minimum goal was to get 2 miles reliably and guess that with the loss from the duplexer and loss from the feed line that I'm getting out 2 watts or less. Retevis says the RT 97 is rated for 10 watts, but some of the reviews explicitly state you can cut that in half due to the loss from the duplexer.

My 8 watt HT with a longer whip can open the repeater at just under a mile but I can't receive back.  I may try a LMR 400 feed line but am not sure that's totally going to help me get my two-mile min goal.

So this morning, I was poking around the forum and found this thread.  I'd appreciate links to reliable videos and/or posts providing guidance on how to build a two-radio set up to help improve my coverage.  My goal for this set up is again min 2 miles and would be thrilled to get to the far end of the LOS range.

Or, I would appreciate thoughts as to how to improve the Retevis RT97 but think going to LRM400 might be the only other option.  Appreciate comments on that too. 

[SteveShannon]

12 minutes ago, jhouse said:

A very timely post!  I just connected a Retevis RT97 with an attic antenna about 25' high at the base of the antenna and am getting 1.2 SWR using 50' of LMR240. Some of the line of site calculators show I should be getting 6 miles +/- but I'm not even getting a mile reliably.  This is an urban area with lots of two-story houses and mature trees (for my area) right at the same height of all the surrounding two-story houses. An exterior mount is not an option.  My minimum goal was to get 2 miles reliably and guess that with the loss from the duplexer and loss from the feed line that I'm getting out 2 watts or less. Retevis says the RT 97 is rated for 10 watts, but some of the reviews explicitly state you can cut that in half due to the loss from the duplexer.

My 8 watt HT with a longer whip can open the repeater at just under a mile but I can't receive back.  I may try a LMR 400 feed line but am not sure that's totally going to help me get my two-mile min goal.

So this morning, I was poking around the forum and found this thread.  I'd appreciate links to reliable videos and/or posts providing guidance on how to build a two-radio set up to help improve my coverage.  My goal for this set up is again min 2 miles and would be thrilled to get to the far end of the LOS range.

Or, I would appreciate thoughts as to how to improve the Retevis RT97 but think going to LRM400 might be the only other option.  Appreciate comments on that too. 

Is there any way you can get that antenna outside of your attic and up in the air above your roof, if even just temporarily for testing?

Are the houses around yours just as high as yours?  

What brand and model of antenna is it and what is its advertised gain?

[jhouse]

I couldn't get it any higher outside without some sort of mast system that would need to be tethered/anchored.  I have a two story that's probably as high as any of the two-story homes around me.  The top of the antenna is probably 6 to 8 inches below the absolute peak of the roof and I don't have any foil backed decking/insulation to interfere.  just simple pine decking and a typical ashpalt shingle.

The antenna is the Retevis MAO2 FRP fiberglass antenna that came with the RT97 bundle. Retevis MA02 FRP antenna 144/430MHz | retevis.com 

The advertised gain is 4.5/7.2Bi

[WRUE951]

On 1/20/2023 at 8:23 AM, gortex2 said:

So other than the Bridgecomm I can say for 100% none of the new repeaters I linked are 2 mobile radios inside a box. They are full blown repeaters. This is why I posted those repeaters. If Bridgecomm is 2 mobiles inside they don't talk about that in the programming of the repeater. You hook up the cable and program the code plug in the repeater per their video here on their site. 

I realize there are many "mobile" based repeaters that can be built and are even sold however the repeaters I linked are true repeaters. Many folks don't have the technical ability to assemble multiple radios so that's why I put the links here. 

 

 

I realize there are many "mobile" based repeaters that can be built and are even sold however the repeaters I linked are true repeaters. Many folks don't have the technical ability to assemble multiple radios so that's why I put the links here. 

i have a very good friend in Torrance, he is a retired Motorola Engineer.. All of their 'one' package repeater radios are two radios bundled into a single chassis.  Now they don't physically shove two radios into the chassis but rather the boards themself's.  Based on his professional knowledge, he says all repeater manufactures do the same..  He is the one that advised me to go with two Maxon 8200A's.... And i really did save $1,000 doing so over the Bridgecomm.  The Maxon's are 10 watts shy of the Wouxun KG1000,  (which i had) but they actually get better coverage.   I'm getting about 65-70 miles here in the Mojave desert vs. the roughly 40 miles with the Wouxun. And by the way, programing the two Maxons is pretty much identical to the Bridgecomm....  I'm thinking they use the same programing software with a few minor changes for Bridgecomm  As far as technical knowledge to get the one chassis vs two radios fired up, there really is no difference other than the need to have a separate Power Supply and a jumper to tie the two radios togethe  with the two radio scenario.  Programming is gong to be required either way you go and will pretty much be the same steps.  The Wouxun KG1000 doesn't need software, they can be programmed from the Mic and done in less than 1 minute...    

[WRUE951]

2 hours ago, jhouse said:

A very timely post!  I just connected a Retevis RT97 with an attic antenna about 25' high at the base of the antenna and am getting 1.2 SWR using 50' of LMR240. Some of the line of site calculators show I should be getting 6 miles +/- but I'm not even getting a mile reliably.  This is an urban area with lots of two-story houses and mature trees (for my area) right at the same height of all the surrounding two-story houses. An exterior mount is not an option.  My minimum goal was to get 2 miles reliably and guess that with the loss from the duplexer and loss from the feed line that I'm getting out 2 watts or less. Retevis says the RT 97 is rated for 10 watts, but some of the reviews explicitly state you can cut that in half due to the loss from the duplexer.

My 8 watt HT with a longer whip can open the repeater at just under a mile but I can't receive back.  I may try a LMR 400 feed line but am not sure that's totally going to help me get my two-mile min goal.

So this morning, I was poking around the forum and found this thread.  I'd appreciate links to reliable videos and/or posts providing guidance on how to build a two-radio set up to help improve my coverage.  My goal for this set up is again min 2 miles and would be thrilled to get to the far end of the LOS range.

Or, I would appreciate thoughts as to how to improve the Retevis RT97 but think going to LRM400 might be the only other option.  Appreciate comments on that too. 

To my knowledge, the easiest radios to build a repeater (in terms of programing them) are the Wouxun KG1000 and the Maxon 8200A's. Using either radio is relatively straight forward..  You would place a jumper between the two radios, take the high side antenna coax output into the high side input of the duplexer, the low side antenna coax output into the low side input of the duplexer and the duplexer to the antenna.  That's it..  attached is a quick diagram showing the connection concept.. Programing wold be based on the radio..  The Wouxun can be programed via the hand mic, the Maxon via simple software.  

Typical Repeater config.pdf

[gortex2]

2 hours ago, WRUE951 said:

i have a very good friend in Torrance, he is a retired Motorola Engineer.. All of their 'one' package repeater radios are two radios bundled into a single chassis.  Now they don't physically shove two radios into the chassis but rather the boards themself's.  Based on his professional knowledge, he says all repeater manufactures do the same..  He is the one that advised me to go with two Maxon 8200A's.... And i really did save $1,000 doing so over the Bridgecomm.  The Maxon's are 10 watts shy of the Wouxun KG1000,  (which i had) but they actually get better coverage.   I'm getting about 65-70 miles here in the Mojave desert vs. the roughly 40 miles with the Wouxun. And by the way, programing the two Maxons is pretty much identical to the Bridgecomm....  I'm thinking they use the same programing software with a few minor changes for Bridgecomm  As far as technical knowledge to get the one chassis vs two radios fired up, there really is no difference other than the need to have a separate Power Supply and a jumper to tie the two radios togethe  with the two radio scenario.  Programming is gong to be required either way you go and will pretty much be the same steps.  The Wouxun KG1000 doesn't need software, they can be programmed from the Mic and done in less than 1 minute...    

I can assure you other than the XPR all the MSI repeaters are not mobile radios. I dont know what series he worked on but the Quantar, MTR2000, MTR3000, SLR and GTR8000 are all purpose built repeaters. Yes the XPR is a two mobiles in a box but since the GR500 thats the last built that way. Your friend needs to do some research as those are the only slect few repeaters that used mobile radios in the last 20+ years. 

 

[gortex2]

2 hours ago, jhouse said:

I couldn't get it any higher outside without some sort of mast system that would need to be tethered/anchored.  I have a two story that's probably as high as any of the two-story homes around me.  The top of the antenna is probably 6 to 8 inches below the absolute peak of the roof and I don't have any foil backed decking/insulation to interfere.  just simple pine decking and a typical ashpalt shingle.

The antenna is the Retevis MAO2 FRP fiberglass antenna that came with the RT97 bundle. Retevis MA02 FRP antenna 144/430MHz | retevis.com 

The advertised gain is 4.5/7.2Bi

First issue is the cable. That 5.5db of loss per 100' so at 50' your loosing almost 50% of power and receive. The RT97 is about 5-8 watts out of the connector so by the time you hit the antenna your probably less that 4 watts. The nice thing about the RT97 is its small and you can do stuff you cant do with other repeaters. First suggestion I would give is get a 3' piece of LMR400 and put the repeater 3' from the antenna. You can run a power cord to the repeater. Secondly that antenna is listed as a ham radio antenna. I dont find any directions on tuning it but I would suspect that to be part of your issue. Getting a 462mhz single band antenna will work better. If there was directions on tuning the antenna like cutting the rod or something then make sure all thats been done. 

Remember your using a portable radio on the end of the cable. If you can get a good antenna and cable the RT will work well for your use. Yes getting antenna outside will help. 

[WRUE951]

1 hour ago, gortex2 said:

I can assure you other than the XPR all the MSI repeaters are not mobile radios. I dont know what series he worked on but the Quantar, MTR2000, MTR3000, SLR and GTR8000 are all purpose built repeaters. Yes the XPR is a two mobiles in a box but since the GR500 thats the last built that way. Your friend needs to do some research as those are the only slect few repeaters that used mobile radios in the last 20+ years. 

Like I said in my comment,,   they use radio boards from their mobile radio line to incorporate a one box repeater.   That what i said and i'll hold to it..    So long

 

[gortex2]

1 hour ago, WRUE951 said:

Like I said in my comment,,   they use radio boards from their mobile radio line to incorporate a one box repeater.   That what i said and i'll hold to it..    So long

No clue how you think that's remotely possible. I have had all of the above repeaters apart on a bench and can say in 100% none use a mobile radio board in them. Even a quick look in a service manual you would see that. Feel free to research this and explain where these boards are incorporated in any of the repeaters I listed. I think the product engineers for those series would also be pretty confident with how they are built. 

[OffRoaderX]

1 hour ago, gortex2 said:

No clue how you think that's remotely possible. I have had all of the above repeaters apart on a bench and can say in 100% none use a mobile radio board in them. Even a quick look in a service manual you would see that. Feel free to research this and explain where these boards are incorporated in any of the repeaters I listed. I think the product engineers for those series would also be pretty confident with how they are built. 

I think you've just learned a valuable lesson about "some people" and online "Experts" ... 

[marcspaz]

Kinda makes my head hurt.

[jhouse]

6 hours ago, WRUE951 said:

To my knowledge, the easiest radios to build a repeater (in terms of programing them) are the Wouxun KG1000 and the Maxon 8200A's. Using either radio is relatively straight forward..  You would place a jumper between the two radios, take the high side antenna coax output into the high side input of the duplexer, the low side antenna coax output into the low side input of the duplexer and the duplexer to the antenna.  That's it..  attached is a quick diagram showing the connection concept.. Programing wold be based on the radio..  The Wouxun can be programed via the hand mic, the Maxon via simple software.  

Typical Repeater config.pdf 325.78 kB · 5 downloads

 

4 hours ago, gortex2 said:

First issue is the cable. That 5.5db of loss per 100' so at 50' your loosing almost 50% of power and receive. The RT97 is about 5-8 watts out of the connector so by the time you hit the antenna your probably less that 4 watts. The nice thing about the RT97 is its small and you can do stuff you cant do with other repeaters. First suggestion I would give is get a 3' piece of LMR400 and put the repeater 3' from the antenna. You can run a power cord to the repeater. Secondly that antenna is listed as a ham radio antenna. I dont find any directions on tuning it but I would suspect that to be part of your issue. Getting a 462mhz single band antenna will work better. If there was directions on tuning the antenna like cutting the rod or something then make sure all thats been done. 

Remember your using a portable radio on the end of the cable. If you can get a good antenna and cable the RT will work well for your use. Yes getting antenna outside will help. 

Fair point about the antenna...still new to this and hadn't considered tuning.  There's no way I see to tune that two piece fiberglass antenna that the RT97 came with.  So I'll need to get a new one for sure. Do you have a specific antenna recommendation? 

On putting the repeater in the attic - I'd worry about operating temps in the summer.  The ambient temps can get to 110 degrees in July/August and I'd worry about attic temps getting much much higher inside the attic. I could relocate the repeater and shorten the run maybe 10 feet and still keep it inside the house.  Does 10 feet make that big of a difference if I converted the feeder to LMR400?

[jhouse]

6 hours ago, WRUE951 said:

To my knowledge, the easiest radios to build a repeater (in terms of programing them) are the Wouxun KG1000 and the Maxon 8200A's. Using either radio is relatively straight forward..  You would place a jumper between the two radios, take the high side antenna coax output into the high side input of the duplexer, the low side antenna coax output into the low side input of the duplexer and the duplexer to the antenna.  That's it..  attached is a quick diagram showing the connection concept.. Programing wold be based on the radio..  The Wouxun can be programed via the hand mic, the Maxon via simple software.  

Typical Repeater config.pdf 325.78 kB · 5 downloads

Appears to be simple enough, but a couple of questions -

1) What does the jumper do between the radios?

2) I've read some about duty cycle and would be curious about how that impact with two radios.  Would I still need to be worried about duty cycle even with moderate use?  

3) What type of specific duplexer should I be looking for?

[gortex2]

9 hours ago, jhouse said:

 

Fair point about the antenna...still new to this and hadn't considered tuning.  There's no way I see to tune that two piece fiberglass antenna that the RT97 came with.  So I'll need to get a new one for sure. Do you have a specific antenna recommendation? 

On putting the repeater in the attic - I'd worry about operating temps in the summer.  The ambient temps can get to 110 degrees in July/August and I'd worry about attic temps getting much much higher inside the attic. I could relocate the repeater and shorten the run maybe 10 feet and still keep it inside the house.  Does 10 feet make that big of a difference if I converted the feeder to LMR400?

The repeater is listed for operating temperatures - -30°C~ +60°C. There are some guy using them in solar situations also and have them outside. I have not seen major concerns of this but YMMV

Yes an attic can probably get close to that but may be a good option still. 10' wont make much of a difference with LMR400 so if that's all you can do then try it. Just know the closer to the antenna the better it will work. 

[gortex2]

9 hours ago, jhouse said:

Appears to be simple enough, but a couple of questions -

1) What does the jumper do between the radios?

2) I've read some about duty cycle and would be curious about how that impact with two radios.  Would I still need to be worried about duty cycle even with moderate use?  

3) What type of specific duplexer should I be looking for?

As discussed in other posts, by the time you buy 2 KG1000 radios, cat 5 jumper cable, mobile duplexer you are at the price of a good used specific built repeater and reviews have not been that great on them.

 

[PACNWComms]

On 2/19/2023 at 5:52 AM, WRTZ750 said:

With the XPR 8300 vs 8400 is the main difference that the 8400 can switch between analog and digital (mixed mode) wheras the 8300 can do analog or digital but cannot switch between the two modes?

Correct, 8300 analog OR digital, and 8400 analog AND digital. For those that may have a Motorola XPR8300 repeater, there are still many radio shops sitting on Entitlement ID's for adding that AND function to make a 8300 into a 8400 for a reasonable price too. Does not apply to GMRS, but still something to think about. Takes more rack units of space than the newer SLR5700/8000 (50W/100W) Motorola repeaters, but can be found at a lot lower price on the slightly used market. Places like SunnyComm sometimes even have a duplexer mounted to the top of some of theirs for around $1200 or so for UHF XPR8300's.