A strange thing happened on my way to a new repeater......

[WRWB464]

Ok so noob here but this sure seemed strange. I have been looking for local repeaters to add into my new radio. Still new using myGMRS so it was only a bit surprised when a repeater showed up only a couple miles from my home location, when I had not seen it there before. So I added it to my radio and sent a request to the owner.

That was yesterday. This morning I get an email saying my request was denied, and the details were a somewhat cryptic and a bit rude response back from the owner.

Now, a few hours later, both that repeater and any record of my request, other than the email I received, are all gone from myGMRS.

So what's up? Is there GMRS black ops going on? LOL. Just wondering how/what this may have been about. Thanks.

[wayoverthere]

I'll hazard a guess that someone meant to add it to the map for coordination purposes, but inadvertently listed it as open, when they meant to post it as private. The request cued them that it was visible, and rather than correcting the listing they chose to delete it from the map altogether.

[WQWX838]

Yeah.... This is a tough one and don't take it personally. I have a repeater and have not yet decided if I want to post it as available or not... In an ideal setting, I would like to give access to everyone with GMRS users having priority over "ham" type users. Ham types have plenty of other places to go, and from the perspective of providing public access, I want to do this. Yet, I worry that users that have come from the ham side have learned some operating habits that are not the best at times. I honestly don't know how I am going to address this issue if I take it public. I get 40 miles of coverage so the system is working really nice too. On the fence on this one myself so I suspect the owner you are describing thought about these issues also. Too bad the interpersonal skills were not up to par though. J

[gortex2]

Exact reason none of mine are listed any longer.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WQWX838 said:

Yeah.... This is a tough one and don't take it personally. I have a repeater and have not yet decided if I want to post it as available or not... In an ideal setting, I would like to give access to everyone with GMRS users having priority over "ham" type users. Ham types have plenty of other places to go, and from the perspective of providing public access, I want to do this. Yet, I worry that users that have come from the ham side have learned some operating habits that are not the best at times. I honestly don't know how I am going to address this issue if I take it public. I get 40 miles of coverage so the system is working really nice too. On the fence on this one myself so I suspect the owner you are describing thought about these issues also. Too bad the interpersonal skills were not up to par though. J

Just so I can learn, what are the operating habits that some hams have developed that are unwelcome?

[WRAM370]

1 hour ago, WQWX838 said:

I have a repeater and have not yet decided if I want to post it as available or not

Sorry to stray from the OP’s post, but this is of interest to me, and may or may not speak to the OP’s question.

I changed the status of my repeater after receiving requests from people who were nowhere near it’s very limited coverage area. It just became pointless for me to offer access when the majority of requests were obviously not going to hit it, and many of these people were looking for repeaters with activity for the purposes of “conversation”.

There are several open repeaters in my region that cover 50+ miles, and since the lowering of the licensing fee, these repeaters are occupied by hams and CB’ers, who have moved their lengthy and pointless conversations onto the extremely limited GMRS channels. Some of these conversations run for hours throughout the day, as these people are often retired or unemployed, and due to the large footprint of the repeater, make that particular frequency pair unavailable for others to use. I think this is inconsiderate, when the amateur radio service exists for this very intended purpose. 

You mentioned hams have other places to go, as do CB operators, but in my region, they have flocked to GMRS. Of these high profile repeaters that exist in my region, I have heard practically NO family communications on these wide footprint repeaters, because they are occupied by older men who sit around and BS for hours, as if they are sitting at the corner bar. I can tell you that any reasonable parent would probably not want to use these repeaters with their children, for many reasons.

Your desire to have GMRS activity take priority over ham-type activity is understandable. I don’t know if that can be accomplished anymore, since the FCC lowered the fee, and the Chinese are cranking out inexpensive radios.

[SteveShannon]

Thanks - I can understand not wishing to raise a repeater only to have it taken over for rag-chewing.  I get the idea that a lot of people buy GMRS licenses because paying $35 is the same for either hams or GMRS, but GMRS doesn't require a test.  It sounds as if the people flocking to GMRS are simply looking for an easier way to play radio.  I don't understand why someone who is already licensed as a ham would be attracted to GMRS for that reason.  Maybe these are people who either couldn't pass the test, were too intimidated to try, or it's just easier.  Perhaps the price for GMRS should be raised to $70 again and the price for a ham license be removed? 

[gortex2]

WRAM hit the nail on the head. I had this same issue arise on my main repeater. I've asked about this before and gotten beaten down on all the reasons hams are moving to GMRS. I get part of it. But I don't care to hear what you had for lunch, or why your doctor is asking you to take this or that med. Go back to 440 and do it. I had one repeater that had a great footprint. Working with the AHJ of the area put it in a county park, for folks to ask for help and work with SAR folks on incidents. In less that 6 months it turned into 3 guys gab site. I would hear the same conversation in the AM on 2M while driving to work that I would here on GMRS after lunch. Thats not why I put up the repeater. Not once did I ever hear one of the 3 hams call their spouse, child or parent. It was just a spot they would chat to get away from the 2M repeater. I finally removed it and unlisted it. Over time we have reinstalled it but its not listed. I'm sure at some point someone will find it and as long as we dont get the 2 hour booboo chats it will be fine. 

[SteveShannon]

I still don’t get it. There are a lot more 70cm, 2m, and other frequencies available to hams. Why do you think it’s licensed hams instead of ham wannabes who are doing this?

What would attract a ham away from the more plentiful options they have with amateur radio to the very limited GMRS?

[wrci350]

We have a number of GMRS repeaters in our area, including at least six that have been stood up in the past year.  Of all those repeaters, I can only think of a couple examples of 'family' communications.

The first was a small footprint one set up by a friend of mine that he used to check in with his mother-in-law every day.  Unfortunately someone else stood up a high power repeater on the same pair that drowned him out, and I think he moved it to his camp.

The second is a guy I've heard do a radio check with his (I think) brother-in-law that lives quite a distance away a few times through one of the large footprint repeaters.

The rest of the traffic on the repeaters?  Radio checks, "nets" or rag-chewing.  One thing I've noticed that appears to be different in our area is that a lot of the repeater users are NOT hams.  Yes, there are some GMRS users who also have an amateur license, but they appear to be in the minority.

[WRWB464]

I can offer a couple of reasons why at least myself, an amateur general license for a number of years decided to get into GMRS.

I was considering getting a CB for my little RV that I am trying to spend a lot more time in. However, CB is not my cup of tea any longer and GMRS seemed like a much better alternative for travel comms. It's a lot more likely to go on Randys "universal highway channel 19" (or scan for someone) and find a travel companion or road information etc. Trying that with my ham would not likely get me a lot of come backs.

And for get togethers with the sons and their families, I can equip a number of people including the kids with cheap FR/GMRS HTs which I can not do with ham.

Regarding local repeaters, for me it is just a matter of knowing what is going on. Local information is always better than what you may hear on the news or internets. In this case ham may actually be better at least early on.

[WQWX838]

Yes, There are some thoughtful posts here and commendable. I thought many things that were typed by others, yet was trying to be as polite as possible. Rants and raves don't help anything. IF any good can come of this, I would like it to be known that it was a polite suggestion that eating the rag, endless weather chat, and a parade of random electromagnetic FM is kinda hard on "utility users"... This is what I meant when I said, "hams develop some operating habits that are not the best"... This was not meant in disrespect in any way. It is an empirical observation. Those techniques need and want to be in the ham bands so I only ask politely, not with hidden advocacy. Steps to help with this could be as simple as resisting the urge to xmit if you honestly have nothing to say. It would really help a lot! By the way, I had NO IDEA that the license fee was 35 now! OMG! Chinese radios and this? I had been accumulating quality commercial hardware to put my system up for almost 5 years now. This indeed could potentially become an "issue"... Knowing all this? I am off the fence and it will stay private for now, yet still open to public use if I don't start to hear fresh dung hittin da fan...

[WRQC527]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

What would attract a ham away from the more plentiful options they have with amateur radio to the very limited GMRS?

My wife isn't interested in getting a ham license, but I wanted to have some way to contact her through a repeater from someplace like Mt. Baldy here in Southern California where cell service is pretty spotty at best, and occasionally on my commute home from work. Still, 99% of my time is spent on ham radio. 

[gortex2]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

I still don’t get it. There are a lot more 70cm, 2m, and other frequencies available to hams. Why do you think it’s licensed hams instead of ham wannabes who are doing this?

What would attract a ham away from the more plentiful options they have with amateur radio to the very limited GMRS?

Didn't we just discuss this last month when I asked the question ? 

 

[WQWX838]

14 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

Didn't we just discuss this last month when I asked the question ? 

That means there is a problem with this issue.... Larger than I had even thought. Someone coming from the "ham bands" needs to reflect on operating habits a little before diving in. GMRS is best served as a "utility" user area. People could discipline themselves enough to make this work because.... Oh am I ever going to get it for saying this... Because if people use it like "hams" do? It's shot for utility use when in range of a repeater. I know I'm a new poster here and that statement will likely get me banned for life when the flames start. It's OK. I'm still my own life path either way. thanks to everyone for the thoughtful posts. ---Joseph

[OffRoaderX]

6 minutes ago, WQWX838 said:

Someone coming from the "ham bands" needs to reflect on operating habits a little before diving in

I approve this message.

[WRWB464]

A couple of thoughts regarding why, as a ham, that I have no intention of becoming a "ratchet jaw" on GMRS.

With the increase in digital ham such as DMR, I would expect most hams will go to/stay with that vs GMRS. From what I know there are about 200,000 registered DMR contacts currently but everyone is expecting that to explode. New radios are coming with slots for up to a million contacts. While you can still be limited to a repeater only having 1 maybe 2 incoming time slots (a lot of time the 2nd one is reserved for say, a local net) you have almost limitless outgoing conversations.

I just bought a new DMR radio as well as the GMRS (I had been away from all things radio for about 10 years) and it is mind blowing what you can do.

Again for myself, this is a much more likely "recreational" format with GMRS reserved for travel and family/non-radiohead situations.

[SteveShannon]

21 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

Didn't we just discuss this last month when I asked the question ? 

 

We sure did. 

[SteveShannon]

9 minutes ago, WQWX838 said:

Because if people use it like "hams" do? It's shot for utility use when in range of a repeater.

You are 100% correct.  I don't think you'll get banned, though.  You might even get some write-in votes in the 2024 General Election.

[axorlov]

2 hours ago, WRAM370 said:

You mentioned hams have other places to go, as do CB operators, but in my region, they have flocked to GMRS. Of these high profile repeaters that exist in my region, I have heard practically NO family communications on these wide footprint repeaters, because they are occupied by older men who sit around and BS for hours, as if they are sitting at the corner bar. I can tell you that any reasonable parent would probably not want to use these repeaters with their children, for many reasons.

I see a confusion between the owning a ham license and not owning a common sense and manners. Different things, really. If you can magically ban all hams from GMRS repeaters, you'd still be stuck with local lunatics and know-it-all a-hole youtube influenzers. And they are plenty around!

[SteveShannon]

So, it appears we're seeing an excess of success. Cheap radios, easy licensing with very loose rules on who may use, increased number of repeaters, and repeater networks. That 

1. GMRS is regulated to be very easy for families to connect with each other under a single license, perhaps too easy. What could be done?
2. Many people (myself included) would prefer that GMRS be used primarily for short messages, rather than long winded sessions.  Actually that's good etiquette for any repeater usage.
3. Likewise, although station to station conversations don't have to be limited in length for ham radio, they probably should for GMRS, since there are so few channels.
4. Should there be a more public dissuasion of people who want to rag-chew on GMRS?  Multiple times per week someone gets on here and says they bought a GMRS radio and they're dissappointed there's nobody to chat with.  Should there be a pinned post that we can steer them towards, or a set answer that's basically "You've got the wrong idea," nicely of course.  Randy has been good about saying that.  

[WQWX838]

axorlov.... This is not possible or even on topic to "ban" hams... It is 100% about openly talking and being able to say to your ham buddies, hey this is really a utility use type service, lets not clog it up so we should move to band xyz for the carry on... It is in fact about developing a pragmatic attitude where "we share the resource"... that would make it work. Forget you tube and all that baggage. Those people are paid to act weird and enjoy doing it. Its all good.

[wrci350]

11 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

We sure did. 

"Last month" like 2 1/2 weeks ago?  

We did.  But we must not have solved the problem, since the discussion has come back.

I almost weighed in on the other thread,  I guess I should have.

Definitely YMMV, but as I said in my earlier post, around here the "hams" on the GMRS repeaters ... aren't.

It seems to me that there are individuals/organizations/websites/whatever that are advertising GMRS as something that (according to the FCC) it isn't.  We see evidence of that almost every day on these forums.  "I just got my GMRS license and I can't find any random people to talk to."  That is NOT the stated purpose of GMRS.  Is that type of usage forbidden?  Not that I can see anywhere.  But if people get their GMRS license with the thought that they can use GMRS to talk to random people (just like on a ham repeater) without having to take a test, guess what?  That's what they are going to do!

Again, YMMV.  Personally I think it's silly for hams to go hang out on a GMRS repeater as if it were a ham repeater.

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, WQWX838 said:

It is 100% about openly talking and being able to say to you ham buddies, hey this is really a utility use type service, lets not clog it up so we should move to band xyz for the carry on.

Agreed.

[SteveShannon]

Something that perhaps isn't cited as frequently as it should be is this rule regarding Personal Radio Services. It seems obvious to me that rag-chewing is a violation of this premise:

§ 95.357 Duration of transmissions.

Except as otherwise provided, the operator of a Personal Radio Services station must generally limit transmissions to the minimum duration necessary. See e.g., § 95.2357. Some Personal Radio Services have specific duration limits, which are set forth in the subparts governing those services. See e.g., § 95.957.