TM LMR-400 cable termination

[dwmitchell61]

This sounds like it may get expensive...

Windstorm brought down mast & destroyed my base antenna. So's I buys a new antenna. The XYL says radios have to leave the bedroom, son has moved out, I now have a radio shack (and XYL used to manage Radio Shack here, LoL).

Make a long story short. New mast, new antenna, new location, in the air, all guyed up, cables awaiting window feedthrough...

I look over and find my Welsh terrier hanging from the GMRS coax and she's having a great time.

I look and there are holes all the through the external insulation. Now I get reports I am "loud and clear but scratchy".

Looks like I am going to lose some length in the cable...

About how much is a crimper set for doing N-type connectors on LM-400? 

Maybe someone at the club will graciously let me borrow theirs?

Edited March 28, 2023 by dwmitchell61
Cell phone spelling errors

[SteveShannon]

7 hours ago, dwmitchell61 said:

About how much is a crimper set for doing N-type connectors on LM-400? 

If you want the genuine one endorsed by TM, $456:

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/tmv-tk-400ez

But Amazon has kits starting at $48:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BBQQ7TQZ/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?pd_rd_i=B0BBQQ7TQZ&pd_rd_w=Gjiv6&content-id=amzn1.sym.3309c9d3-bf37-499a-888c-9ce693c3483f&pf_rd_p=3309c9d3-bf37-499a-888c-9ce693c3483f&pf_rd_r=CF3AV5C5C0YQ273T4Q68&pd_rd_wg=5yXv9&pd_rd_r=44e711e0-584c-4851-800d-6614b41cd816&s=hi&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWM&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExOVhMMkVKWDg5NDlOJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzQ1NDYxNU5XN0U5N0RYU1cwJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTEwMTk2MTUxMFZXOTRMMUdBQjlBJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsX3RoZW1hdGljJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

I have no experience with either and I am not endorsing either. For myself I plan to just buy the crimp dies to fit the crimper handle I have.

[WRCQ487]

No need for a crimper if you use these. 

N Connectors Male Rf Coaxial Connector for LMR400 Cable Belden 9913 RG8 Cable Nickel Machined Brass Construction (4piece clamp) https://a.co/d/4PKXPfH

Also here's a video on how to install them. Very easy. 

https://youtu.be/c6Z8jHE3gC4

 

 

[gortex2]

For hobby use the $45.00 set of crimpers on amazon will work for LMR. If your crimpling hundreds of connectors a year then the better tool you should get. I have a $40 pair in my go bag thats been used twice to fix a cable at an event. Worked fine. 

[Lscott]

3 hours ago, WRCQ487 said:

Nickel Machined Brass Construction

I've read comments where experienced radio tech's strongly recommend to stay away from Nickel or Chrome plated connectors and use only Silver plated type. The claim made is a film will form on the surface which has some rectification properties like a diode. The partly rectified RF is rich in harmonics causing all sorts of issues on RX and TX. I've also read about harmonic problems being traced to plain old rust on antenna towers for the same reason.   

The last bit was used to advantage during WWII for the Foxhole Radios. The blue coating on the razor blade is really a type of iron oxide coating.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxhole_radio

[nokones]

Why wouldn't this kit do the job just as well as the Times Mirror mega dollar set?

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-ut-kit-crmp2#overview

[SteveShannon]

34 minutes ago, nokones said:

Why wouldn't this kit do the job just as well as the Times Mirror mega dollar set?

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-ut-kit-crmp2#overview

That’s a great crimper set which appears to include a lot of extra dies, including PowerPole dies. It doesn’t include the handy little cable prep tool that the Times-Microwave tool has, but like @Gortex2 said that’s more useful if you’re going into production. 
 

[nokones]

46 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

That’s a great crimper set which appears to include a lot of extra dies, including PowerPole dies. It doesn’t include the handy little cable prep tool that the Times-Microwave tool has, but like @Gortex2 said that’s more useful if you’re going into production. 
 

Oops, I was assuming that everyone would have one of these for some reason. At the moment, it may be a one-time need but, in the future there is no doubt that he'll have a need for the tool. And if he goes with both DX Eng. Tool kits, it'll cost him about $19 more than the Times Mirror kit but, he'll get more cable strippers and the two cable holders.

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-ut-kit-cc1

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, nokones said:

Oops, I was assuming that everyone would have one of these for some reason. At the moment, it may be a one-time need but, in the future there is no doubt that he'll have a need for the tool. And if he goes with both DX Eng. Tool kits, it'll cost him about $19 more than the Times Mirror kit but, he'll get more cable strippers and the two cable holders.

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-ut-kit-cc1

But maybe a crimper and the whole preparation kit just isn’t necessary.  I really kind of like the clamp style of connector that @WRCQ487 linked in his post above. I actually purchased some similarly installed PL-259 connectors based on advice from one of the other members here and they look good. 
 

As a refresher here is a similar N connector from Messi and Paoloni (same video as linked above)

 

[tcp2525]

Doesn't anyone solder any more? I'm old school and still solder. 

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, tcp2525 said:

Doesn't anyone solder any more? I'm old school and still solder. 

Both of the above methods require soldering the center conductor but at least the M&P literature discusses that the variability of soldering was something that affected SWR and that their evolution series of connectors is intended to minimize that by making the amount of solder more consistent. 

[tcp2525]

7 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Both of the above methods require soldering the center conductor but at least the M&P literature discusses that the variability of soldering was something that affected SWR and that their evolution series of connectors is intended to minimize that by making the amount of solder more consistent. 

That's nice. I've always used the silver plated connectors that require soldering the center pin and have been extremely happy with the results. I have yet to use a solderless crimp connector, but I've seen them used in the field.

[dwmitchell61]

On 3/28/2023 at 5:54 PM, tcp2525 said:

Doesn't anyone solder any more? I'm old school and still solder. 

I don't have an appropriate soldering station for the shielding. I tried to build a coaxial collinear antenna with a 25W iron on RG-8X and it was a mess. Even tried a butane soldering iron. 

If it's just the center pin, then that is manageable.

[SteveShannon]

27 minutes ago, dwmitchell61 said:

I don't have an appropriate soldering station for the shielding. I tried to build a coaxial collinear antenna with a 25W iron on RG-8X and it was a mess. Even tried a butane soldering iron. 

If it's just the center pin, then that is manageable.

For the clamp style connectors the center pin can even be crimped instead of soldered. 

[tcp2525]

18 hours ago, dwmitchell61 said:

I don't have an appropriate soldering station for the shielding. I tried to build a coaxial collinear antenna with a 25W iron on RG-8X and it was a mess. Even tried a butane soldering iron. 

If it's just the center pin, then that is manageable.

Good point.  You gotta know your limitations as well  as the tools you're using. If you want to make a great coax collinear use 3/8"Heliax. RG-8X really isn't a good choice for that. I've made many coax collinear antennas that came  out great and are still up and running to this day. Here's what it looks like prior to soldering.

[DONE]

First off, solder VS not.  If you use good quality caprive pin connectors and install them per the manufacture recommended manner, there is no benefit to soldering.  And before you claim ANYTHING on this, remember that ALL splices in hardline up to 6 inch (largest made) are slip fit connections with flange connections for the outer shield.  This is feed line that carries as much as 500KW for TV and radio broadcast.  So, captive pin connectors, when used correctly are fine. 

Crimpers. 

Daniels HX-4 crimp bodies are the $500 option.  But those crimper bodies are available used on ebay for significantly less money.  Those crimper bodies are typically used for aircraft maintenance and have a wide variety of crimp dies for a multitude of different crimped wire terminations.  I have seem a few times where the correct dies were with the bodies on ebay but you typically have to get them separate and put them together.  These are the RIGHT way of doing the connectors. 

And use TM (Times Microwave) branded connectors when using TM LMR-400 cable.  The cheap stuff from HRO and other places are just that, cheap.  Yes, the connectors are 30ish bucks a piece, but once you have them in place you will never need to worry about them again.

But the comments about the lesser crimpers are correct, you can use them for hobby work when you are not crimping 10 connectors a day twice a week.  They will work fine.  But use the good connectors anyway. 

The dies are labeled in crimp diameter.  If you get the required diameter from teh manufacture paperwork and find a crimper that crimps that size, they will work

 

[tcp2525]

16 minutes ago, WRKC935 said:

First off, solder VS not.  If you use good quality caprive pin connectors and install them per the manufacture recommended manner, there is no benefit to soldering.  And before you claim ANYTHING on this, remember that ALL splices in hardline up to 6 inch (largest made) are slip fit connections with flange connections for the outer shield.  This is feed line that carries as much as 500KW for TV and radio broadcast.  So, captive pin connectors, when used correctly are fine. 

Crimpers. 

Daniels HX-4 crimp bodies are the $500 option.  But those crimper bodies are available used on ebay for significantly less money.  Those crimper bodies are typically used for aircraft maintenance and have a wide variety of crimp dies for a multitude of different crimped wire terminations.  I have seem a few times where the correct dies were with the bodies on ebay but you typically have to get them separate and put them together.  These are the RIGHT way of doing the connectors. 

And use TM (Times Microwave) branded connectors when using TM LMR-400 cable.  The cheap stuff from HRO and other places are just that, cheap.  Yes, the connectors are 30ish bucks a piece, but once you have them in place you will never need to worry about them again.

But the comments about the lesser crimpers are correct, you can use them for hobby work when you are not crimping 10 connectors a day twice a week.  They will work fine.  But use the good connectors anyway. 

The dies are labeled in crimp diameter.  If you get the required diameter from teh manufacture paperwork and find a crimper that crimps that size, they will work

 

Definitely agree with what you say about hardline. I've installed enough hardline connectors to see how they are precisionly machined. No solder required. Like you, I've seen many cheap "aftermarket" crimp connectors on the end of coax, even on RG-400. I rather spend the money on good coax and terminate it with good connectors. I hate doing things twice.

[SteveShannon]

11 minutes ago, WRKC935 said:

First off, solder VS not.  If you use good quality caprive pin connectors and install them per the manufacture recommended manner, there is no benefit to soldering.  And before you claim ANYTHING on this, remember that ALL splices in hardline up to 6 inch (largest made) are slip fit connections with flange connections for the outer shield.  This is feed line that carries as much as 500KW for TV and radio broadcast.  So, captive pin connectors, when used correctly are fine. 

Crimpers. 

Daniels HX-4 crimp bodies are the $500 option.  But those crimper bodies are available used on ebay for significantly less money.  Those crimper bodies are typically used for aircraft maintenance and have a wide variety of crimp dies for a multitude of different crimped wire terminations.  I have seem a few times where the correct dies were with the bodies on ebay but you typically have to get them separate and put them together.  These are the RIGHT way of doing the connectors. 

And use TM (Times Microwave) branded connectors when using TM LMR-400 cable.  The cheap stuff from HRO and other places are just that, cheap.  Yes, the connectors are 30ish bucks a piece, but once you have them in place you will never need to worry about them again.

But the comments about the lesser crimpers are correct, you can use them for hobby work when you are not crimping 10 connectors a day twice a week.  They will work fine.  But use the good connectors anyway. 

The dies are labeled in crimp diameter.  If you get the required diameter from teh manufacture paperwork and find a crimper that crimps that size, they will work

 

I ended up ordering a Klein crimper frame and Klein dies for LMR400.  It may have come out of the same factory as the iWiss crimper I have for Powerpoles; but I’m hoping that Klein at least exercises some QC.  Based on Amazon reviews the dies have a better finish than some of the alternatives. I’ll add other dies as needed.  I know that’ll be more expensive than one of the $30 crimper tool plus six dies, but I’ve had decent luck with most Klein tools.  Except their 11 in 1 screwdriver. 

[DONE]

7 hours ago, Sshannon said:

 Except their 11 in 1 screwdriver. 

Really?  I have like 5 of those.  I have one in each tool bag, and one in each tool pouch I have as well.  Hand nothing but good luck with them.  Sorry to hear you experience wasn't as good.

 

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WRKC935 said:

Really?  I have like 5 of those.  I have one in each tool bag, and one in each tool pouch I have as well.  Hand nothing but good luck with them.  Sorry to hear you experience wasn't as good.

 

I’m kind of half joking. I actually like the idea, and the Klein quality is very good, but numerous times the square bit stuck a little too tightly in the heads of screws for an electrical breaker box that I was rearranging and pulled out of the shaft too easily. It was frustrating and eventually it fell to the floor, bouncing off several other things along the way, and became lost. Of course even though it was the middle of the day in a daylight basement I was using a flashlight and the room lights were all off because I had killed power outside at the service box, so I had no idea where it bounced! 
Then, I couldn’t find a way to order the same replacement bit that both would fit in the handle and had the same missing opposite end. When you lose a bit you lose two ends, right?
Several months later I found it, right where I thought it should be that day, but I swear I moved furniture, swept the floor, and even aggressively went through the couch that normally sits there, including tipping it over. 
I feel better now. Thanks for letting me vent.

[WRUU653]

I like Klein tools as well. I’m kind of with you on this @Sshannon, I have at least four of these and one that has been completely robbed of all the bits and is now just a multi nut driver . I keep buying them though and even though I have a tool bag in the truck one of these sits in the glove box because they are so handy. 

[DONE]

I load my tools in what some would refer to as weird.  I got hooked up with the Tough Built tool pouches and sort of went nuts with them.

I have a general pouch that if I walk in a building to do basically anything, I snap it to my belt. There is a set of small channel locks, a 14 in 1 a common and fly-lips insulated Klein, a stripper / cutter / linesman plier.  A small multimeter, a circuit safety tester, couple sharpies and a 14 in 1 mini screwdriver and a set of linesmans scissors.

Then I have my cable dressing pouch.  Scissors, roll of velcro tabbed straps, roll of waxxed string, my lacing needles and a 14 in one.

Cable terminating pouch is my LMR crimpers, knife, tape, file, wrenches for LDF connectors (cut short) and the swagging tool for LDF4.  And yep,, a 14 in 1.

I have a couple others, one is a big one that my heavier electrical stuff rides in.  Then the big mouth tote and a roll around bag my heavier 20 volt drills and crap live in.  and the cool part is it's all modular.  The belt clips will mount on a wall so I can hang the pouches on the divider in the van, they also hang on the tote or the bag.  And I have a clip on a J-hook and one on a magnet to hang it where ever I need to. 

 

 

[SteveShannon]

The Klein crimper and dies arrived yesterday.  The quality appears very good.  They’re made in Taiwan, which is a massive step up in my mind from the unknown brands made in China. The finish on the dies is very much better than the finish on some of my Chinese dies. 

[WRWR489]

Now all you need is some adhesive heat shring to finish the job!