Avoiding FRS channels

[PRadio]

More expensive, but a good radio, I have two of them, and have used them for seven years so far. https://powerwerx.com/tera-tr505-gmrs-recreational-handheld-radio

[PartsMan]

On the original post.

It has never been a real problem.

Most FRS traffic seems to be on channel one.

I have never had to change channels more than once o a camping trip because of traffic.

Remember FRS radios are limited on range on purpose.

[KAF6045]

2 hours ago, PartsMan said:

Remember FRS radios are limited on range on purpose.

That may once have been true -- but since 2017 FRS units are allowed 2W on all but the 467MHz interstitials (#8-14; those are still 0.5W ERP)

2W is a common value for handhelds in many services (my ancient Maxon GMRS 210+3 is ~2W on battery, might approach 5W if using a 13.8V power cable, but that does restrict the "HT" capability)

The difference in range between 2W and 5W is minuscule.

[WRWP775]

2 hours ago, PartsMan said:

On the original post.

It has never been a real problem.

Most FRS traffic seems to be on channel one.

I have never had to change channels more than once o a camping trip because of traffic.

Remember FRS radios are limited on range on purpose.

THANK YOU!

I've been kinda sorry I started this argument, but I can't say I didn't know it would happen given I have a ham license.  

[WRUU653]

2 hours ago, WRWP775 said:

I've been kinda sorry I started this argument, but I can't say I didn't know it would happen given I have a ham license.  

No need to be sorry, you didn’t know what you didn’t know. How else are you going to find out. The wheel may have been a little wobbly but others hit the accelerator and at the end of the day it’s just radios not brain surgery… wait what? You have a ham license? You b*#@*d!!!

Just kidding of course 73’s

[WRQC527]

2 hours ago, WRWP775 said:

I've been kinda sorry I started this argument

This isn't much of an argument. Wait until you see six pages of debate about an obscure FCC rule. Now THAT'S an argument. 

[Adamdaj]

On 4/8/2023 at 8:45 PM, WRWP775 said:

To me, one of the advantages of GMRS is avoiding FRS congestion at campgrounds, parks, etc.  If I have learned/read this correctly, the first 22 channels are shared between FRS/GMRS with the only difference being GMRS may use higher power on those channels.

I have nothing against FRS users, but I'd like to limit interference without having to mess around with CTCSS, DTCS codes, polarity, etc. when programming my radios for the family.

So I believe (and would like to confirm with the brain trust here)  that with my GMRS license I may use repeater channels 23 through 30 as simplex only channels, without having to go through a repeater.  That's my understanding from reading GMRS rules online.

Thanks.

John / WRWP775 / K6JJG

LISTEN TO YOURSELF! You're going have interference no matter what you have. True you may not have as much problems using a repeater, but as long as radios have PL tones and some will scan and lock on, you can still find folks talking on those frequencies even on simplex.

[Blaise]

On 4/11/2023 at 7:52 PM, KAF6045 said:

The difference in range between 2W and 5W is minuscule.

OK, my turn to start a fight:

The difference between 2W and 5W is an increase in receivable transmission range of nearly 60%.  That is neither minuscule nor even negligible!

[NavyDoc]

I always thought a fixed station was one that was broken, but now isn't. 

[WRQC527]

29 minutes ago, NavyDoc said:

I always thought a fixed station was one that was broken, but now isn't. 

My dog wasn't broken but we fixed him anyway. That's the old saying. "If it ain't broke, fix it til it is."

[Blaise]

37 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

That's the old saying. "If it ain't broke, fix it til it is."

I think in modern radio-land, it's, "If it ain't broke, add more features 'til it is."

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, WRQC527 said:

My dog wasn't broken but we fixed him anyway. That's the old saying. "If it ain't broke, fix it til it is."

Yup. When I was out of college for a bit I was doing field service work on the company’s equipment. I learned real quick if it isn’t broke and you start screwing with it then it will end up broken almost for sure.

[KAF6045]

9 hours ago, Blaise said:

OK, my turn to start a fight:

The difference between 2W and 5W is an increase in receivable transmission range of nearly 60%.  That is neither minuscule nor even negligible!

Conventionally it takes a 10dB increase (2W to 20W) to cause a movement of one S-unit

And since UHF is line-of-sight, both 2W and 5W are capable of hitting LEO satellites in terms of distance. Horizon distance is much shorter than that -- and UHF doesn't cope well with vegetation (VHF MURS will get through a forest better than UHF GMRS). UHF is a bit better in urban areas, where the shorter wavelengths can penetrate windows and doorways that act as a Faraday cage for VHF).

[marcspaz]

@KAF6045

It takes 6dB to increase 1 S-unit... going from 2 watts to 8 watts... but your point is still very valid. 2w compared to 5w, its almost no change with regard to range or readability. 

 

 @Blaise As far as voice communications goes, I would absolutely say it is negligible, but that's only because at almost midnight I can't readily think of a word that represents something less than negligible. 

[Lscott]

Well there is one other way to avoid FRS chatter that's 100 percent guaranteed to work. Find the power control button or knob on your radio and move it to the off position. No programming required.

[Blaise]

10 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

Conventionally it takes a 10dB increase (2W to 20W) to cause a movement of one S-unit

And no one cares about s-units, they *do* care that their handheld can be heard 60% farther away through woods or city!

 

10 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

And since UHF is line-of-sight, both 2W and 5W are capable of hitting LEO satellites in terms of distance. Horizon distance is much shorter than that

Sure, and I have a solution that works, but only for spherical ducks in a vacuum! 

Virtually no one using a handheld radio is in a surrounding that puts them LOS to the horizon.  Handhelds happen in woods, in cities, and in buildings.  What matters is that if all the clutter would only allow a 2W transmission to penetrate a mile, it would allow a 5W transmission to penetrate 1.6 miles, which is a big deal.

[Blaise]

10 hours ago, marcspaz said:

As far as voice communications goes, I would absolutely say it is negligible, but that's only because at almost midnight I can't readily think of a word that represents something less than negligible. 

I will repeat my previous reponse, because I can't seem to find a way to combine quoting:
Virtually no one using a handheld radio is in a surrounding that puts them LOS to the horizon.  Handhelds happen in woods, in cities, and in buildings.  What matters is that if all the clutter would only allow a 2W transmission to penetrate a mile, it would allow a 5W transmission to penetrate 1.6 miles, which is a big deal.

Come on now guys, this fight won't work if you just reasonably post your (WRONG) opinions!  You have to get some inappropriate emotion into it!

[marcspaz]

13 minutes ago, Blaise said:

I will repeat my previous reponse, because I can't seem to find a way to combine quoting:
Virtually no one using a handheld radio is in a surrounding that puts them LOS to the horizon.  Handhelds happen in woods, in cities, and in buildings.  What matters is that if all the clutter would only allow a 2W transmission to penetrate a mile, it would allow a 5W transmission to penetrate 1.6 miles, which is a big deal.

Come on now guys, this fight won't work if you just reasonably post your (WRONG) opinions!  You have to get some inappropriate emotion into it!

 

Unfortunately, I have found that in real-world applications, what you are claiming doesn't happen.  I spend a tremendous amount of time in the woods while offloading, assisting the Marine Corps Community Services with running events, and camping. Most of my friends and peers have 5w handheld radios for the stuff we do.  I have an 8w handheld. We have never had a situation where we crossed a threshold to where I couldn't hear them, but they could hear me. 

I have all the proper tools and equipment to test this.  I'd be happy to go out into the woods tomorrow and do real measurements and tell you what the scientifically measured truth is, if you're interested... but I don't think you are going to like the answer. 

[WRQC527]

3 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

I have all the proper tools and equipment to test this.  I'd be happy to go out into the woods tomorrow and do real measurements and tell you what the scientifically measured truth is

You're absolutely right. And after reading this apparently endless thread and many just like it, this famous quote comes to mind.

“I’ve made up my mind. Don’t confuse me with facts.”

 

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, WRQC527 said:

You're absolutely right. And after reading this apparently endless thread and many just like it, this famous quote comes to mind.

“I’ve made up my mind. Don’t confuse me with facts.”

 

 

[Blaise]

2 hours ago, marcspaz said:

Unfortunately, I have found that in real-world applications, what you are claiming doesn't happen.

This is interesting to me.  (Not the fighting part, that you are really bad at!)

As I've mentioned before, the naive "physics" viewpoint is the one I'm approaching this topic from. Physics says that if your signal is currently penetrating x inches of material at y flux (Or maybe I should use variable 'S', in this context?), doubling your power will allow it to pass through x * 1.6 inches of material at y flux.  Since it seems like the primary limit on how far a UHF signal will be readable at is how much crap is has to pass through, this seems like it would apply.

This of course doesn't take into account other variables I may be unaware of, but I keep bringing it up in hopes someone will clue me to the missing variables...

[Blaise]

2 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

You're absolutely right. And after reading this apparently endless thread and many just like it, this famous quote comes to mind.

“I’ve made up my mind. Don’t confuse me with facts.”

There you go!  NOW you're attacking the person, instead of the argument.  This is an excellent example of how to start a proper fight!

[marcspaz]

18 minutes ago, Blaise said:

This is interesting to me.  (Not the fighting part, that you are really bad at!)

As I've mentioned before, the naive "physics" viewpoint is the one I'm approaching this topic from. Physics says that if your signal is currently penetrating x inches of material at y flux (Or maybe I should use variable 'S', in this context?), doubling your power will allow it to pass through x * 1.6 inches of material at y flux.  Since it seems like the primary limit on how far a UHF signal will be readable at is how much crap is has to pass through, this seems like it would apply.

This of course doesn't take into account other variables I may be unaware of, but I keep bringing it up in hopes someone will clue me to the missing variables...

 

Oh, I'm not fighting, just having a discussion. Thats probably why it looks like I'm bad at fighting. LoL

 

I'm not disputing your technical point that more power equals more penetration or improved range. That is just matter of fact. My contention is more a matter of the significance of the improvement. 

 

That said, just to be friendly and see if you are correct or not, I am 100% willing to go in the woods behind my house with a radio and a field strength metere to conduct an actual measured test of the situation you are describing. Now, if you just want to have an exercise in rhetoric rather than discover usable and actionable information, then I'm not goto do the test. 

 

@everyone... if anyone wants me to do the test, I will, but I have no interest in doing it for my own sake. So, if anyone wants it, just let me know.

[Blaise]

8 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

That said, just to be friendly and see if you are correct or not, I am 100% willing to go in the woods behind my house with a radio and a field strength metere to conduct an actual measured test of the situation you are describing.

That's actually amazing.  I've been wondering all morning how I'd explain to my wife why I was buying a bunch more test equipment to do the same thing!

I want to try it across city and inside buildings, too...

[Blaise]

9 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

Oh, I'm not fighting, just having a discussion. Thats probably why it looks like I'm bad at fighting. LoL

Yes, I was teasing just to make the point that you *don't* take your discussion to emotional hysteria, like we see so often in say this thread (and so many others)...