Avoiding FRS channels

[WRWP775]

To me, one of the advantages of GMRS is avoiding FRS congestion at campgrounds, parks, etc.  If I have learned/read this correctly, the first 22 channels are shared between FRS/GMRS with the only difference being GMRS may use higher power on those channels.

I have nothing against FRS users, but I'd like to limit interference without having to mess around with CTCSS, DTCS codes, polarity, etc. when programming my radios for the family.

So I believe (and would like to confirm with the brain trust here)  that with my GMRS license I may use repeater channels 23 through 30 as simplex only channels, without having to go through a repeater.  That's my understanding from reading GMRS rules online.

Thanks.

John / WRWP775 / K6JJG

[wrci350]

That is not correct.

The receive frequencies on 23-30 are the same as on 15-22.  If a nearby FRS user is on 15-22 you will hear them.  The difference between 15-22 and 23-30 is that on 23-30 you are transmitting 5MHz up from the receive frequency so you can go through a repeater.  The GMRS regulations explicitly prohibit the use of the 467 inputs as simplex channels:

467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and control stations may transmit on these channels only when communicating through a repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with § 95.319(c). The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.

[KAF6045]

As already stated, 23-30 (aka rp15-rp22) are repeater only channels. No normal GMRS radio can receive those frequencies (repeaters listen on 467.xxx, and transmit on 462.xxx).

Prior to the 2017 reorganization by the FCC, the only purely FRS frequencies were those now designated as channels 8-14 -- the 0.5W ERP NFM channels. Channels 1-7 were GMRS interstitials (allowed 5W FM) years before FRS was created, and original FRS was permitted them using 0.5W NFM. Channels 15-22 were GMRS MAIN channels (and in the old days, one was allowed to specify just /two/ [pairs: simplex and repeater] of them on their license), allowed up to 50W FM.

With the 2017 changes, FRS is allowed to access channels 1-22, with 2W on 1-7/15-22 (ie; what had been the "GMRS" limits on the pre-reorganization bubble packs sold as FRS/GMRS). FRS is restricted to NFM on all channels. GMRS HTs, in return, gained access to 8-14 -- with the limits of 0.5W ERP NFM, same as FRS. GMRS retained 5W FM for 1-7, and 50W FMS for 15-22.

[Sshannon]

1 hour ago, wrci350 said:

The GMRS regulations explicitly prohibit the use of the 467 inputs as simplex channels:

467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and control stations may transmit on these channels only when communicating through a repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with § 95.319(c). The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.

Simplex is not prohibited on the 467 MHz channels. The regulation doesn’t even imply that. The regulation simply limits which radios can converse with each other in those channels.
Two fixed stations could chat with each other in simplex all day long on 467 MHz channels. 
 

[wrci350]

11 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Simplex is not prohibited on the 467 MHz channels. The regulation doesn’t even imply that. The regulation simply limits which radios can converse with each other in those channels.
Two fixed stations could chat with each other in simplex all day long on 467 MHz channels. 
 

Is it time for this debate again?

What you state is true, but what the OP is describing IS forbidden.

No one seems to know what a "fixed station" is ... but we DO know what it is NOT.  HTs, mobile radios in a vehicle, or mobile radios installed in a house (or sitting on a picnic table plugged into a battery and an antenna on a tripod) are NOT fixed stations.

Apparently I should have said, "The GMRS regulations explicitly prohibit the use of the 467 inputs as simplex channels except in one situation which does not apply to you."

Better?

[Sshannon]

13 hours ago, WRWP775 said:

So I believe (and would like to confirm with the brain trust here)  that with my GMRS license I may use repeater channels 23 through 30 as simplex only channels, without having to go through a repeater.  That's my understanding from reading GMRS rules online.

Your understanding is incorrect.  You may only transmit on the 467 MHz frequencies when communicating through a repeater, for doing very limited testing, or between two fixed stations.

[Sshannon]

10 minutes ago, wrci350 said:

Is it time for this debate again?

What you state is true, but what the OP is describing IS forbidden.

No one seems to know what a "fixed station" is ... but we DO know what it is NOT.  HTs, mobile radios in a vehicle, or mobile radios installed in a house (or sitting on a picnic table plugged into a battery and an antenna on a tripod) are NOT fixed stations.

Apparently I should have said, "The GMRS regulations explicitly prohibit the use of the 467 inputs as simplex channels except in one situation which does not apply to you."

Better?

A mobile station installed in a house (fixed location) and communicating only to other mobile stations in fixed locations would be fixed stations.  Of course all those mobile stations would have to comply with the other rules regarding fixed stations, such as power output.

[UncleYoda]

12 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Simplex is not prohibited on the 467 MHz channels. The regulation doesn’t even imply that. The regulation simply limits which radios can converse with each other in those channels.
Two fixed stations could chat with each other in simplex all day long on 467 MHz channels. 
 

You're misreading the regs there.  It does say only when communicating through a repeater (or test message) - seems plain enough to me.  The only type not included in that is fixed station, which even FCC can't explain what it is.   BUT I SEE YOU CHANGED IT IN YOUR NEXT POST.  (Both of those can't be true.)

[UncleYoda]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

A mobile station installed in a house (fixed location) and communicating only to other mobile stations in fixed locations would be fixed stations.  Of course all those mobile stations would have to comply with the other rules regarding fixed stations, such as power output.

NNNNOOOOOO!!!!!!!!       A FIXED STATION IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT, A MOBILE, HANDHELD OR BASE STATION.  It is not any of the normal station types by its own lame definition - can only talk to other fixed stations.  Obviously, mobile and handheld portable aren't fixed so that part is clear.  The one 99.9% of users mistake is base station.  Base can't be what they are calling a fixed station (even though it is in a fixed location) because the regulations are clearly different for the two types - different power limits, different channel usage, different definitions.  The fact that FCC can't clear this up proves they should be defunded pronto because it's ridiculous for a regulatory agency to not properly explain regulations.

[Sshannon]

10 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

NNNNOOOOOO!!!!!!!!       A FIXED STATION IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT, A MOBILE, HANDHELD OR BASE STATION.  It is not any of the normal station types by its own lame definition - can only talk to other fixed stations.  Obviously, mobile and handheld portable aren't fixed so that part is clear.  The one 99.9% of users mistake is base station.  Base can't be what they are calling a fixed station (even though it is in a fixed location) because the regulations are clearly different for the two types - different power limits, different channel usage, different definitions.  The fact that FCC can't clear this up proves they should be defunded pronto because it's ridiculous for a regulatory agency to not properly explain regulations.

You’re wrong. Any station, installed in a permanent (fixed) location, can be a fixed station.  A fixed station is a station installed in a fixed location which communities only to other fixed stations.  Whether the manufacturer designed it for use as a base, portable, or hand held makes absolutely no difference as long as the operator follows all the regulations for a fixed station.

[UncleYoda]

I don't know why you can't see what you're saying makes no sense.  But put your money where your mouth is (figuratively speaking).  Contact FCC and get the explanation from them.  That is the only interpretation that counts.  Good Luck!  In the meantime, I will go by what I see which means almost every GMRS user is wrong about this.

[UncleYoda]

9 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

 as long as the operator follows all the regulations for a fixed station.

OK, let's focus on just that.   Base, mobile and handheld are not limited to talking to just their own type nor just to fixed stations.  It would be nearly impossible to use them that way.  You don't know what another user is using before you talk to them (except possibly a family member, but even then they could be mobile or portable).

I've got a topic on exactly this, so really that should be where we continue this, not under avoiding FRS channels.

[Sshannon]

2 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

OK, let's focus on just that.   Base, mobile and handheld are not limited to talking to just their own type nor just to fixed stations.  It would be nearly impossible to use them that way.  You don't know what another user is using before you talk to them (except possibly a family member, but even then they could be mobile or portable).

I've got a topic on exactly this, so really that should be where we continue this, not under avoiding FRS channels.

I agree. Fixed stations are clearly not intended for communicating with unknown stations. I’d be happy to continue this discussion in your other thread. 

[BoxCar]

Gentlemen, Uncle Yoda is correct in the definition and use of a fixed station. Fixed stations only communicate to other fixed stations. Fixed stations DO NOT communicate to other mobile, handheld or base stations. The most common examples of fixed stations are SCADA stations used to monitor events and microwave sites. Microwave sites and SCADA stations only talk to another station of the same type, SCADA to SCADA and microwave to microwave. Base stations, operating from a "fixed" locations, communicate with other base stations, portable units and mobile units. A repeater site, even though it is in a stationary location is not a fixed station because of how it is used. It fits the definition of a base station as it passes communications between other base stations, mobiles and portables. Fixed stations use highly directional antennas such as a Yagi or parabolic dish pointed at the ONE station set to receive their transmissions.

So, the radio in your house or the repeater you use, even though their locations are fixed - as in stationary - they are not fixed stations.

[WRWP775]

Wow. No wonder I was confused. 

Like usual. Age'll do that.

Thanks for the responses.

[KAF6045]

23 hours ago, BoxCar said:

Base stations, operating from a "fixed" locations, communicate with other base stations, portable units and mobile units.

Note that a literal reading of the FCC regulations does not allow true "base" stations from operating /through/ a repeater

Quote

§ 95.1763 GMRS channels.

The GMRS is allotted 30 channels—16 main channels and 14 interstitial channels. GMRS stations may transmit on any of the channels as indicated below.

(a) 462 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, repeater, base and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 462.5500, 462.5750, 462.6000, 462.6250, 462.6500, 462.6750, 462.7000, and 462.7250 MHz.

 

(c) 467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and control stations may transmit on these channels only when communicating through a repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with § 95.319(c). The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.

Note that (c) does not mention base stations but does mention control stations (another one of the ambiguous parts in the regulations: if just being able to key up a repeater counts as "control station" there is no need for (c) to mention mobile and hand-held; my interpretation is that a control station is one that can command a repeater to change operating modes [change tone, turn off the repeat function if malicious jamming is taking place, etc.]) (a) does not mention control stations.

My view is biased by the 1990s rules, and the "family farm" situation: one base station at the farm house talking to family using HTs/mobiles working out in the fields (all operating under the single callsign). This COULD be combined with a repeater colocated at the farm house (in truth, the base station would be the 462MHz transmitter side, with the repeater module listening on 467MHz). Talking "licensee to licensee" was not the normal mode of operation -- and might be just to neighboring farms, for example ("Kxx9999, this is Kyy1234; Joe, my cows knocked down the fence gate and are wandering your way. Do you think you could corral them while I send one of the boys to herd them back?")

 

[Radioguy7268]

A "Base Station" is not a mobile sitting on a desk, although it can be. 

A Base Station is a fixed location that transmits on the lower (Base) pair of a set of frequencies. If operating in Simplex mode, a Base Station is a fixed location that transmits (and receives) on the lower frequency. (Someone will point out that Taxi Cab's in the 1960's had VHF base radios that listened on a different frequency - and you're right).

In short, when your mobile in a tray operates on the lower 462.xxx frequency - it's a Base station. Emission designator FB1 (simplex base) FB2 (repeater base) 

When it transmits on the upper 467.xxx  - it's NOT a Base station, it has become a Fixed station - ie: A control station.  Emission designator FX1

When you drop it into your car, it becomes an MO - mobile station.

Argue all you want, but that's how the FCC has seen it since the 1960's. At least, in any of my interactions with them. 

[WRUU653]

2 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

it has become a Fixed station - ie: A control station

I don't agree that a base station becomes a "fixed station" as defined by the FCC, although it is in a fixed location. The distinction being that a fixed station only communicates with other fixed stations. 

Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed stations only.

a base station is just that

Base station. A station at a fixed location that communicates directly with mobile stations and other base stations.

I do however agree that once you use a base station through a repeater it then becomes a control station, which I beleave is the point you are making.

Control station. A station at a fixed location that communicates with mobile stations and other control stations through repeater stations, and may also be used to control the operation of repeater stations.

[wrci350]

1 hour ago, Radioguy7268 said:

When it transmits on the upper 467.xxx  - it's NOT a Base station, it has become a Fixed station - ie: A control station.  Emission designator FX1

Argue all you want, but that's how the FCC has seen it since the 1960's. At least, in any of my interactions with them. 

It's not the 1960's.  

The first statement above is flat-out wrong, at least as far as GMRS is concerned.  A fixed station and a control station are two different things according to Part 95 E

[wrci350]

2 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

Note that (c) does not mention base stations but does mention control stations (another one of the ambiguous parts in the regulations: if just being able to key up a repeater counts as "control station" there is no need for (c) to mention mobile and hand-held; my interpretation is that a control station is one that can command a repeater to change operating modes [change tone, turn off the repeat function if malicious jamming is taking place, etc.]) (a) does not mention control stations.

My view is biased by the 1990s rules

The 1990s rules are no longer in effect, so not relevant.

As far as the first paragraph, Part 95A defines a control station as:

A station at a fixed location that communicates with mobile stations and other control stations through repeater stations, and may also be used to control the operation of repeater stations.

"Fixed location".  So no, a mobile or HT (which is defined as a sub-category of mobile) isn't a control station, since it's not at a fixed location.

The definition also makes it clear that communicating through a repeater is enough to make it a "control station".  Controlling the repeater is a "may", not a "must".

[OffRoaderX]

This is the funniest F*king thread i've seen in a long time.  You guys are a great resource for me!

[WRUU653]

7 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

This is the funniest F*king thread i've seen in a long time.  You guys are a great resource for me!

Glad to help, I was hoping for more radio related content

[kmcdonaugh]

4 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

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I literally read this entire thread purely for its entertainment value.

[Lscott]

On 4/8/2023 at 8:45 PM, WRWP775 said:

To me, one of the advantages of GMRS is avoiding FRS congestion at campgrounds, parks, etc.  If I have learned/read this correctly, the first 22 channels are shared between FRS/GMRS with the only difference being GMRS may use higher power on those channels.

I have nothing against FRS users, but I'd like to limit interference without having to mess around with CTCSS, DTCS codes, polarity, etc. when programming my radios for the family.

So I believe (and would like to confirm with the brain trust here)  that with my GMRS license I may use repeater channels 23 through 30 as simplex only channels, without having to go through a repeater.  That's my understanding from reading GMRS rules online.

Thanks.

John / WRWP775 / K6JJG

You could try switching over to use MURS radios. Those are also license free.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Use_Radio_Service

Also fortunately there are a few affordable ones out there so you don't have to mess around with looking for an old Part 90 radio that would be grandfathered in, received the operating grant before MURS was created.

https://baofengtech.com/product/murs-v2/

https://www.buytwowayradios.com/business/murs-radios.html

[wrci350]

Another MURS option.  I have one and it seems decent.

https://www.amazon.com/Radioddity-License-Rechargeable-Industrial-Business/dp/B0B2CV7YMN/