Approved for Ham & GMRS radios

[DONE]

I keep reading over and over that the FCC doesn't require any sort of testing or type acceptance for ham radio gear.

Yet I have the July QST magazine in my hand with the new Kenwood TH-75A on the back cover and down at the bottom of the page it clearly says:

THIS DEVICE HAS NOT BEEN AUTHORIZED AS REQUIRED BY THE RULES OF THE FCC THIS DEVICE IS AND AND MAY NOT BE OFFERED FOR SALE UNTIL AUTHORIZATION IS OBTAINED.

I think that the second most misunderstood regulation in ham radio is the type acceptance, manufacture authorization rules.

As a ham operator you can build your OWN gear.  You can sell that gear to others.  No testing or type acceptance required.

Manufactures don't have that.  They have to meet certain requirements.  Type acceptance, or some level of testing to be approved for sale in the US.

Yes, there are requirements for MANUFACTURED ham equipment to be sold in the US. While that might not be 'type acceptance" testing, there is indeed testing that has to be done for manufactured equipment. 

So, not only is the idea that runs around some circles in the ham community that they can cut the TX block out of their ham radio to talk to the police "just in case" but the lack of a requirement for testing of manufactured ham gear is also not technically correct.

 

 

[pcradio]

29 minutes ago, WRKC935 said:

I think that the second most misunderstood regulation in ham radio is the type acceptance, manufacture authorization rules. As a ham operator you can build your OWN gear.  You can sell that gear to others.  No testing or type acceptance required. Manufactures don't have that.  They have to meet certain requirements.

That is an incredibly revealing point you've made. Are you saying that type acceptance is actually for the manufacturer and not for the radio operator? This is why it is so easy to mod a Yaesu, Baofeng, and others to operate on all the bands one is licensed for. We actually already have the permissions to do so? Interesting.

[wrci350]

41 minutes ago, WRKC935 said:

I keep reading over and over that the FCC doesn't require any sort of testing or type acceptance for ham radio gear.

Yet I have the July QST magazine in my hand with the new Kenwood TH-75A on the back cover and down at the bottom of the page it clearly says:

THIS DEVICE HAS NOT BEEN AUTHORIZED AS REQUIRED BY THE RULES OF THE FCC THIS DEVICE IS AND AND MAY NOT BE OFFERED FOR SALE UNTIL AUTHORIZATION IS OBTAINED.

Yeah  Part 15.  Just like every other electronic device that's sold in the US.  Has nothing to do with Part 97.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, pcradio said:

 We actually already have the permissions to do so? Interesting.

Well - maybe !

While a Ham can modify a radio and "tinker" quite a bit, the Ham is only allowed to use Ham frequencies. - If you "change hats" from Ham to GMRS, you are bound to use an approved GMRS radio as you are using your GMRS license and frequencies.

Let's just say you are a race car driver and you drive like crazy on the "Nordschleife" (famous F1 death trap) - once you hit the highway, you can no longer drive like that ...

 

[wrci350]

10 minutes ago, pcradio said:

That is an incredibly revealing point you've made. Are you saying that type acceptance is actually for the manufacturer and not for the radio operator? This is why it is so easy to mod a Yaesu, Baofeng, and others to operate on all the bands one is licensed for. We actually already have the permissions to do so? Interesting.

That's not an accurate statement.

The FCC rules state that only a radio that is type-accepted for Part 95 E can be used on GMRS frequencies.  Nowhere does it say, "but it's OK for you to use your ham radio that's been 'opened up' (either by hardward modification or via software) as long as you have a GMRS license too".

[pcradio]

1 minute ago, WRXD372 said:

Well - maybe !

While a Ham can modify a radio and "tinker" quite a bit, the Ham is only allowed to use Ham frequencies. - If you "change hats" from Ham to GMRS, you are bound to use an approved GMRS radio as you are using your GMRS license and frequencies.

Enjoying the conversation. This is an interpretation is it not? I'm not bound, the manufacture is. I can use GMRS correctly on identical hardware known as UV-5R.

[pcradio]

3 minutes ago, wrci350 said:

The FCC rules state that only a radio that is type-accepted for Part 95 E can be used on GMRS frequencies.  Nowhere does it say, "but it's OK for you to use your ham radio that's been 'opened up' (either by hardward modification or via software) as long as you have a GMRS license too".

Why can all radios be so easily modded then? The whole Mars Mod is in fact for opening up a radio for use on privileges the operator has. Can you show me the legal statement of what makes a GMRS radio? Like, I don't know where all this is.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, pcradio said:

Enjoying the conversation. This is an interpretation is it not? I'm not bound, the manufacture is. I can use GMRS correctly on identical hardware known as UV-5R.

But your GMRS authorization forces you to use compliant equipment:

 

47 CFR 95.1705(b) Individual licensee responsibility. The holder of an individual license to operate GMRS stations is responsible at all times for the proper operation of the stations in compliance with all applicable rules in this part.

47 CFR 95.1761(a) Each GMRS transmitter (a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate in the GMRS) must be certified in accordance with this subpart and part 2 of this chapter.

 

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, pcradio said:

 what makes a GMRS radio? 

47 CFR 95.1761(a) Each GMRS transmitter (a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate in the GMRS) must be certified in accordance with this subpart and part 2 of this chapter.

 

eCFR :: 47 CFR Part 95 Subpart E -- General Mobile Radio Service

 

 

[SteveShannon]

10 minutes ago, pcradio said:

Why can all radios be so easily modded then? The whole Mars Mod is in fact for opening up a radio for use on privileges the operator has. Can you show me the legal statement of what makes a GMRS radio? Like, I don't know where all this is.

Here’s the index to all the “Parts” including amateur radio:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D

[Guest]

I just realized that throughout this thread, I never closed this tab:

eCFR :: 47 CFR Part 95 Subpart E -- General Mobile Radio Service

Many laws are written with a disturbing deal of "possible ambiguity" - at least to a lay person.

However, remember that we live in a society that prides itself with charging murders that we cannot get for the crime with ... wait for it ... tax evasion !!!

[pcradio]

1 minute ago, WRXD372 said:

47 CFR 95.1705(b) Individual licensee responsibility. The holder of an individual license to operate GMRS stations is responsible at all times for the proper operation of the stations in compliance with all applicable rules in this part.

47 CFR 95.1761(a) Each GMRS transmitter (a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate in the GMRS) must be certified in accordance with this subpart and part 2 of this chapter.

Stay with me here ... I'm the individual, I'm personally using the service in compliance. The radio I would be using has been certified for GMRS (UV-5G). Certified is a past tense term. The hardware is certified. We've established that. As a HAM, I can change the hardware into a HAM radio, because that is within my privileges.

[SteveShannon]

5 minutes ago, pcradio said:

Stay with me here ... I'm the individual, I'm personally using the service in compliance. The radio I would be using has been certified for GMRS (UV-5G). Certified is a past tense term. The hardware is certified. We've established that. As a HAM, I can change the hardware into a HAM radio, because that is within my privileges.

Once you modify if, it is no longer certified for use on GMRS.

[pcradio]

1 minute ago, Sshannon said:

Once you modify if, it is no longer capable of being certified for use on GMRS.

I will modify it back for GMRS usage.

[wrci350]

4 minutes ago, pcradio said:

Stay with me here ... I'm the individual, I'm personally using the service in compliance. The radio I would be using has been certified for GMRS (UV-5G). Certified is a past tense term. The hardware is certified. We've established that. As a HAM, I can change the hardware into a HAM radio, because that is within my privileges.

Go read Part 95 and then come back and show us where it says that.  Hint:  it does not.

Yes, the manufacturer submitted that model of radio for certification some time in the past.  In order to be legal to use on GMRS, the radio in your hand has to be in the same configuration as the one submitted for certification.  If it's not, then it is no longer certified, and does not meet the FCC requirements for the GMRS service.

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, pcradio said:

I will modify it back for GMRS usage.

It doesn’t work that way.  You cannot “modify” a radio into certification.

[pcradio]

2 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

It doesn’t work that way.  You cannot “modify” a radio into certification.

But I can ... it is "software". The hardware is identical. I can, in fact, modify the software.

[SteveShannon]

Just now, pcradio said:

Stay with me here ... it is "software". The hardware is identical. I can, in fact, modify the software.

Nope - still doesn’t work that way.

I understand what you mean.  You’re just changing the configuration and there’s no reason that doing so should affect the certification, but the regulations say something different.

c)No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in § 95.1763, unless such transmitter is also certified for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required. No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service. All frequency determining circuitry (including crystals) and programming controls in each GMRS transmitter must be internal to the transmitter and must not be accessible from the exterior of the transmitter operating panel or from the exterior of the transmitter enclosure. 

[pcradio]

12 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

c)No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS ...

Wow, that is a ball of ambiguity. Sounds like it is saying there is no such thing as a certified GMRS device that can monitor another frequency outside of GMRS. How do GMRS repeaters work then? What is the most common hardware used for GMRS repeaters?

This rule is not taken seriously at all. Which only proves my point of how invalid it actually is in practice. The art of radio, is not about making me carry a UV-5R & UV-5G at the same time. There is serious error here.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Nope - still doesn’t work that way.

I understand what you mean.  You’re just changing the configuration and there’s no reason that doing so should affect the certification, but the regulations say something different.

c)No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in § 95.1763, unless such transmitter is also certified for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required. No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service. All frequency determining circuitry (including crystals) and programming controls in each GMRS transmitter must be internal to the transmitter and must not be accessible from the exterior of the transmitter operating panel or from the exterior of the transmitter enclosure. 

 

17 hours ago, WRXD372 said:

Those other frequencies must not be amateur radio frequencies ...

47 CFR 95.1761(c)

No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in § 95.1763, unless such transmitter is also certified for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required. No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service. [...]

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E

 

@Sshannon You just pulled a time travel trick !!!  

 

... I also like that the "crystals" must be internal ... so FCC old school !

 

 

[SteveShannon]

2 minutes ago, pcradio said:

Wow, that is a ball of ambiguity. Sounds like it is saying there is no such thing as a certified GMRS device that can monitor another frequency outside of GMRS. How do GMRS repeaters work then? What is the most common hardware used for GMRS repeaters?

This rule is not taken seriously at all. Which only proves my point of how invalid it actually is in practice. The art of radio, is not about making me carry a UV-5R & UV-5G at the same time. There is serious error here.

It says nothing about monitoring another frequency.  It applies to transmitters. And you must also read all of the regulations in the context of the general rules regarding personal radio services. For instance:

§ 95.337 Operation of impermissibly modified equipment prohibited.

No person shall modify any Personal Radio Service transmitter in a way that changes or affects the technical functioning of that transmitter such that operation of the modified transmitter results in a violation of the rules in this part. This includes any modification to provide for additional transmit frequencies, increased modulation level, a different form of modulation, or increased transmitter output power (either mean power or peak envelope power or both). Any such modification voids the certified status of the modified transmitter and renders it unauthorized for use in the Personal Radio Services. Also, no person shall operate any Personal Radio Service transmitter that has been so modified.

As for repeaters I’ll copy and paste a regulation that allows for devices certified for other uses in a few minutes.

[pcradio]

2 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

It says nothing about monitoring another frequency.  It applies to transmitters.

How did you determine its referring to transmitters? A previously stated paragraph?

[SteveShannon]

6 minutes ago, pcradio said:

How did you determine its referring to transmitters? A previously stated paragraph?

Look for the word ”transmitter” in that paragraph, but also the paragraph earlier about certification refers to transmitters.

[SteveShannon]

Here’s the language referring to exceptions for LMR equipment used for PRS:  

a)Exceptions.Under certain exceptions, non-certified Personal Radio Service transmitters, or transmitters certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated. Any such exceptions applicable to stations in a Personal Radio Service are set forth in the subpart governing that specific service. See e.g.,§§ 95.735and 95.1735.

[SteveShannon]

5 minutes ago, pcradio said:

How did you determine its referring to transmitters? A previously stated paragraph?

Did you read the paragraph you’re questioning.

No person shall modify any Personal Radio Service transmitter in a way that changes or affects the technical functioning of that transmitter such that operation of the modified transmitter results in a violation of the rules in this part. This includes any modification to provide for additional transmit frequencies, increased modulation level, a different form of modulation, or increased transmitter output power (either mean power or peak envelope power or both). Any such modification voids the certified status of the modified transmitter and renders it unauthorized for use in the Personal Radio Services. Also, no person shall operate any Personal Radio Service transmitter that has been so modified.