Why doesn't the FCC allow multi-service radios?

[WRKC935]

On 8/6/2023 at 12:34 PM, buttholejim said:

 

 

Trying to keep users of illegal radios from interfering with public safety systems was not the reason for the adoption of trunked systems. I've been a scanner listener for many, many years. In the 1980's before any major metropolitan areas switched to trunked systems, I would listen to District 4 Police in Denver. I would listen for hours and hours. The radio channels were always busy. The switch to trunked systems was for greater efficiency and improved cross agency communications. Not once had I ever heard an interloper on a police channel. For that matter, I can't even recall ever reading a news story in the last 40 years where someone has used an "illegal" radio to interfere with public safety. No to say that it hasn't happened, but whatever incidents that may have happened are so low profile they probably aren't even news worthy.

If someone honestly wanted to interfere with public safety channels for criminal reasons, they would probably resort to jamming and not try to engage in a conversation.

 

First off, I never said that keeping unauthorized users off a radio system was the only reason for trunking.  But it WAS a sales point. 

Never heard of people using 'illegal radios to access a trunked system'  Maybe not in your state... Ohio has had several instances of people being busted for selling radios that were programmed for the state wide system. 

Never heard of it prior to trunking?  I have worked with the FCC and in one case the FCC and FBI tracking someone that was interfering with repeater systems that were County EMA equipment.  All EMA's fall under Homeland Security.  And due to that screwing with them can be considered a terrorist activity.  And that's not some guess or interpretation, that was directly from the agents I was working with. 

We also figured out that the radio that was being used was indeed a cheap import.  The 'roger beeps' on those radios are distinctive and the logging recorder that we had running did hear that specific set of tones multiple times in the case where the FBI was involved.  The other times were fire and police repeaters that the FCC came out and tried to hunt the person or persons down but had no luck, other than whoever it was stopped doing it.  But it was made public in the radio communities that the FCC was in town and that is what seemed to make it stop. 

Back to the trunking thing.. Yes, the primary reasons for trunking systems is frequency management and sharing.  But interoperability, access control and radio resource management are also big parts of it too.  And wide area coverage beyond the county level is a big piece of it was well.  You simply couldn't use a single frequency across three or more counties that contained any significant population. 

[marcspaz]

55 minutes ago, WRKC935 said:

And this thread ladies and gentlemen is why some of us that actually work or have worked in the communications industry and might know a bit more about these topics than the casual user tend to steer clear of posts like this and giving technical answers to questions.  There is always somebody that thinks that someone told them something else that they have ZERO first hand knowledge of will argue with guys that do this crap for a living.  It gets old.  And is one of the reasons that guys like me no longer bother with these forums like we did. 

But here's the sad part of all of this.  There are some on here that DO know.  And when they get driven off of here due to the BS, you loose that knowledge base. 

 

 

 

I'm of 2 mindsets... either you have to stay off the internet (you, generally..  not you specifically) or you need to stir the pot and embrace the suck.

 

Very little of my job is RF related; mostly computers. I haven't been on an IT forum or group in more than a decade. I gave up after someone with no standing in the industry was trying to tell me how wrong I was after answering a question and telling someone how to correctly configure a product I designed, built and took to market.  It was like a high school freshman with a 3.0 GPA telling Jeff Snover he was using PowerShell wrong.

[Hoppyjr]

Exactly!
Why should Duke Energy be inhibited in its free flow of commerce by having to properly take care of coal ash by too big governmental agencies?
Electricity is cheaper when the government just allows Duke Energy to just wash away its coal ash for free into a river previously providing drinking water!
Duke Energy Agrees to $3 Million Cleanup for Coal Ash Release in the Dan River

That’s from 2014, but thanks for the nostalgia. My point is still valid, agencies should be reorganized and made to operate more efficiently and with purpose.

[WRKC935]

16 hours ago, marcspaz said:

 

 

I'm of 2 mindsets... either you have to stay off the internet (you, generally..  not you specifically) or you need to stir the pot and embrace the suck.

 

Very little of my job is RF related; mostly computers. I haven't been on an IT forum or group in more than a decade. I gave up after someone with no standing in the industry was trying to tell me how wrong I was after answering a question and telling someone how to correctly configure a product I designed, built and took to market.  It was like a high school freshman with a 3.0 GPA telling Jeff Snover he was using PowerShell wrong.

Yeah, I got involved with a forum that started as outdoor warning siren techs and manufactures.  We would exchange info on different things we had seen, odd issues that we couldn't figure out and crap like that. 

Then the 13 year olds took it over.  And they wanted to discuss leaning poles and what specific frequencies the sirens operated at and all sort of nonsense that had no bearing on keeping them running.   Then of course they started disagreeing with people.  Once case the guy that dude was arguing with was the guy that designed the equipment in question.  He was the designer for that manufacture.  And this clown is arguing with him about what he's saying about the equipment is incorrect. 

That was the beginning of the end. All of use that were in the industry left.  And it was a shame, because at one point it was a very helpful took to reference.  Now, not so much.

But I actually am tired of stirring the pot. And any more, there is no need to stir it.  It just happens on its own.  And again, it just gets boring to see a horse beat to pink slime.

 

[Lscott]

43 minutes ago, WRKC935 said:

And this clown is arguing with him about what he's saying about the equipment is incorrect.

That attitude isn’t just confined to forums. Years ago our company had a service engineer who thought he knew more about the high power inverters we use on the heat treat systems the company sells. Got into an argument with me more than once. Didn’t matter I was the main R and D engineer that designed it. 

[WRKC935]

5 hours ago, Lscott said:

That attitude isn’t just confined to forums. Years ago our company had a service engineer who thought he knew more about the high power inverters we use on the heat treat systems the company sells. Got into an argument with me more than once. Didn’t matter I was the main R and D engineer that designed it. 

Yeah, but at least in that case, you can go in the archives and grab the original design documents and put them in from of the guy and ask him how he's more familiar with the equipment than you are?

Outside of one guy at work, we don't have that problem.  We work together.  The one boob.. I taught to tune a specific duplexer, and did it wrong.  I went to him, applogized for the mistake and tried to retrain him.  He was having none of that.  The method that I taught him, mind you I am standing there telling this clown I had told him incorrectly, was fine and that was the way he was gonna do it. 

But that's the way this guy is.  And he's scared of me.  Like a LOT. Never really gave him a specific reason, he just is.  And the other employee's can't figure it out.  This clown will fart, burp, make noises, laugh in a loud and obnoxious way around anyone, except ME.  Our boss included.  I walk in the tech room and he pulls himself up to his desk, shuts his mouth and works.  Minute I leave, he's right back at it. 

He did one day after I got on him for screwing off and not doing his job and butting into mine finally decided to muster the courage to tell me th 'go to hell' and called me an asshole.

I IMMEDIATELY replied that my reservations for Hell were confirmed the prior week and as far as being an asshole, I appreciated the recognition of my continuing efforts.

And it wasn't that he said it that was so funny.... It was the way he said it.  Like he knew I was gonna pound him for it.  So his voice was cracking and he was almost timid about it.  When I fired back, the whole room got up and left.  But of course as soon as they cleared the door they all busted out laughing. 

Gotta love co-workers

[axorlov]

1 hour ago, WRKC935 said:

The one boob.. I taught to tune a specific duplexer, and did it wrong.  I went to him, applogized for the mistake and tried to retrain him.  He was having none of that.

Most people can be programmed only once. Like a famous philosopher Kozma Prutkov once said: People a are akin to sausages. What they are filled with, they keep carrying around. 

[Lscott]

5 hours ago, WRKC935 said:

Yeah, but at least in that case, you can go in the archives and grab the original design documents and put them in from of the guy and ask him how he's more familiar with the equipment than you are?

That didn’t stop the idiot. He complained about a high frequency current transformer that we custom designed and build internally. He said it was unnecessary what we did. I explained carefully why it was done that way. Nope. Talked to the head of our standard products group to let him show us how it’s done just to prove his point. Spent a week on it. Installed it. Just like I told him it didn’t work for the exact reason I told him before why it won’t.

[WRKC935]

On 8/9/2023 at 5:26 AM, Lscott said:

That didn’t stop the idiot. He complained about a high frequency current transformer that we custom designed and build internally. He said it was unnecessary what we did. I explained carefully why it was done that way. Nope. Talked to the head of our standard products group to let him show us how it’s done just to prove his point. Spent a week on it. Installed it. Just like I told him it didn’t work for the exact reason I told him before why it won’t.

Resistance of the heating element when cold too low for the FET's to drive without going nuclear?  Transformer acts as sort of an impedance match so the elements can heat up?  Purely guessing here.

 

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, WRKC935 said:

Resistance of the heating element when cold too low for the FET's to drive without going nuclear?  Transformer acts as sort of an impedance match so the elements can heat up?  Purely guessing here.

 

The principal is based on generating a high frequency AC current in a copper “coil”, for lack of a better term, in close proximity to the surface that’s to be heated. The high frequency magnetic field induces a current flow in the surface of the metal. The depth the current penetrates depends on the frequency. The higher the frequency the closer the current remains to the surface, skin effect. Since the metal has resistance heat is generated from P=R*I^2 effect.
 

https://www.routledgehandbooks.com/pdf/doi/10.1201/9781315117485-3
 

https://ijcrt.org/papers/IJCRT22A6083.pdf

[WREM784]

It would be very useful for an individual to be able to have a fully legal handheld radio which does both FRS and MURS (and VHF marine, for when you're boating, etc).  There is no technical reason why a radio cannot be manufactured to do all of these (because any unlocked Baofeng or "MARS-modded" ham radio can already do this), but the FCC doesn't want us to do it, so they prohibit it in their regulations.  VHF and UHF have different behavior depending on the terrain and it makes sense to be able to switch between them depending on the circumstances, but carrying two different radios for FRS and MURS is a hassle and it's just silly when one radio can easily do both.  I'm sure there are manufacturers who would love to market an FRS/MURS radio for unlicensed use.  It's just the FCC that stands in the way.  They would sell well to people who want to follow the letter of the law, as long as the price was reasonable.

[WRQC527]

1 hour ago, WREM784 said:

It's just the FCC that stands in the way. 

It took the FCC years to discuss and implement a simple fee change just to drop the GMRS license fee to $35. I cannot imagine how long it would take to hash out rule changes that affect multiple radio services. 

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, WREM784 said:

They would sell well to people who want to follow the letter of the law, as long as the price was reasonable.

And that is the issue. You keep reading the forums here and you quickly realize there’s enough people who know the rules but simply ignore them by using uncertified equipment, modified radios etc. just because they can and it’s “convenient” to do so. As long as that attitude persists the FCC will never go along with the idea of a multi service radio. Why? Because once they have it it still won’t be enough so they will push envelope further. There’s no end to it.

[Hoppyjr]

And that is the issue. You keep reading the forums here and you quickly realize there’s enough people who know the rules but simply ignore them by using uncertified equipment, modified radios etc. just because they can and it’s “convenient” to do so. As long as that attitude persists the FCC will never go along with the idea of a multi service radio. Why? Because once they have it it still won’t be enough so they will push envelope further. There’s no end to it.

I’m all for following rules that are based in common sense, but in our modern world there are many rules & regulations that exist only because those in power have a need to justify their existence. It happens not just in the world of communications gear, but in every aspect of our lives.

[Lscott]

7 minutes ago, WRUZ229 said:

I’m all for following rules that are based in common sense, but in our modern world there are many rules & regulations that exist only because those in power have a need to justify their existence. It happens not just in the world of communications gear, but in every aspect of our lives.

The FCC got burned on the FRS/GMRS mess. They’re not eager to repeat that mistake.

[WRQC527]

I'm going out on a limb here that the FCC puts a very low priority on anything to do with GMRS, MURS, FRS, CB and amateur radio. I keep thinking they're saying "Look. We finally dropped your license fee to under a penny a day. Heck, we don't even charge you for some of the services. Now stop bothering us and go outside and play with your radios." 

[WREM784]

3 hours ago, Lscott said:

And that is the issue. You keep reading the forums here and you quickly realize there’s enough people who know the rules but simply ignore them by using uncertified equipment, modified radios etc. just because they can and it’s “convenient” to do so. As long as that attitude persists the FCC will never go along with the idea of a multi service radio. Why? Because once they have it it still won’t be enough so they will push envelope further. There’s no end to it.

The only reason that I own GMRS and FRS radios is because I like to set a good example and follow the rules.  If I were to use MURS channels on a regular basis, I would get myself some MURS radios.  There are times when one would be significantly better than the other, and there are a plethora of radios which will do both, so it's frustrating to explain that you're not supposed to use those radios that way.  Even if you follow every other rule and use the appropriate amount of power, etc, it's illegal for no good reason.  I would absolutely buy a set of legal, dual-band FRS/MURS radios if the FCC would allow it.  I have the ability to do this already with many of my HTs, but I would spend my hard-earned money on a redundant set of radios just to have a set that is fully legal, so I could set a good example.  It would also give me something I could recommend to people who don't want to make radio into a hobby, etc.  

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, WREM784 said:

it's illegal for no good reason

At least any you know about. Doesn’t imply there are none. 

[WRQC527]

Part of the issue I think is because FRS radios are low power and short range and are required to have a fixed antenna, likely to keep people from using bigger antennas and amplifiers to increase what is supposed to be low power and short range. Lots of GMRS and amateur radios have removable antennas specifically to enable users to increase range and power using upgraded antennas and amplifiers. Imagine a world where someone could jack up the power and coverage of FRS that way. That's one reason for a rule not allowing multi-service radios.

[marcspaz]

50 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

Imagine a world where someone could jack up the power and coverage of FRS that way

 

We don't have to imagine.  That is literally what GMRS is.

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, marcspaz said:

 

We don't have to imagine.  That is literally what GMRS is.

Exactly!  You beat me to it. It’s not like there’s a barrier of any kind. 

[WRQC527]

3 hours ago, marcspaz said:

We don't have to imagine.  That is literally what GMRS is.

I think you two missed the point of what I was saying. But that's ok. People miss points all the time. The idea is that FRS radios are supposed to be low power with no license required, but with removable antennas, that purpose would effectively be defeated. Carry on. 

[WREM784]

4 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

Part of the issue I think is because FRS radios are low power and short range and are required to have a fixed antenna, likely to keep people from using bigger antennas and amplifiers to increase what is supposed to be low power and short range. Lots of GMRS and amateur radios have removable antennas specifically to enable users to increase range and power using upgraded antennas and amplifiers. Imagine a world where someone could jack up the power and coverage of FRS that way. That's one reason for a rule not allowing multi-service radios.

FRS is limited to 2w.  MURS is limited to 2w.  They could just make a rule that says that radios approved for both FRS and MURS must have a fixed antenna (due to the restriction for FRS).  But for a GMRS+MURS radio, you could use external antennas, provided that the power output on the MURS channels is limited to 2w.  

[marcspaz]

If a student fails, it's the student. If the class fails, it's the teacher. 

[WRQC527]

1 minute ago, marcspaz said:

If a student fails, it's the student. If the class fails, it's the teacher. 

What if it's homeschooling?