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#1 Guest_bryan_*

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 04:39 PM

Being new using GMRS repeaters,  do I program the given listed frequency i.e. 462.700, pl 141.3

when look more at a coverage, this shows as an output, with an input of 467.700. I understand the 5mhz offset, so is program done with 1st number with positive offset?



#2 SteveC7010

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 05:42 PM

Being new using GMRS repeaters,  do I program the given listed frequency i.e. 462.700, pl 141.3

when look more at a coverage, this shows as an output, with an input of 467.700. I understand the 5mhz offset, so is program done with 1st number with positive offset?

 

Your radio should transmit on 467.700 with pl of 141.3. You should set receive for 462.700. PL on Rx is kind of optional unless you have interference from other stations. I usually leave Rx on CSQ.

 

The offset is 5 Mhz, but unlike the amateur channels, GMRS is cast in stone:  For all eight repeater pairs 462.xxx is always Rx for units in the field, and 467.xxx is always Tx for field units. Repeaters, of course are the reverse. I generally don't bother specifying an offset in the programming. Instead, I just enter the two numbers as appropriate. But my radios are multi purpose beyond GMRS and I don't always need the offset as I use a lot of simplex on GMRS and on other services.

 

Also, a small point, you can run simplex on the eight 462.xxx channels if you want, but the 467.xxx are reserved just for repeater input, at least according to GMRS rules. My wife and I use simplex a lot around town and when we caravan on camping trips.


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#3 mainehazmt

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 07:18 AM

prob a foolish question but   does it have to be 462.700  and 467.700   (even though here) I cant use them  can it be 462.700  and 467.550   to mess up the non approved users?



#4 jwilkers

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 10:21 AM

No. Repeater inputs and outputs are specified by regulation. You can't switch them.

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#5 SteveC7010

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 12:37 PM

prob a foolish question but   does it have to be 462.700  and 467.700   (even though here) I cant use them  can it be 462.700  and 467.550   to mess up the non approved users?

 

No. FCC rules requires these pairs and only these pairs for repeaters in GMRS.


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#6 Tom

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Posted 21 May 2016 - 05:24 PM

No. FCC rules requires these pairs and only these pairs for repeaters in GMRS.

 

Hello,

I'm new to the forums but not new to GMRS. Although you'd want to use the standardized repeater pairs if you want your repeater to be easily found and accessed, I'm not aware of any FCC rule that specifies a 5 MHz offset.

 

Referencing 47 CFR 95.7 (a), it says:

(a) Channels or channel pairs (one 462 MHz frequency listed in § 95.29(a) of this part and one 467 MHz frequency listed in § (95.29(b )  of this part are available to GMRS systems only on a shared basis and will not be assigned for the exclusive use of any licensee.

 

§ 95.29 Channels available.

(a) For a base station, fixed station, mobile station, or repeater station (a GMRS station that simultaneously retransmits the transmission of another GMRS station on a different channel or channels), the licensee of the GMRS system must select the transmitting channels or channel pairs (see§ 95.7(a) of this part) for the stations in the GMRS system from the following 462 MHz channels:
462.5500, 462.5750, 462.6000, 462.6250, 462.6500, 462.6750, 462.7000 and 462.7250.
(For a mobile station, control station, or fixed station operated in the duplex mode, the following 467 MHz channels may be used only to transmit communications through a repeater station and for remotely controlling a repeater station. The licensee of the GMRS system must select the transmitting channels or channel pairs (see§ 95.7(a) of this part) for the stations operated in the duplex mode, from the following 467 MHz channels:
467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000 and 467.7250.

 

Although 95.29 refers to channel pairs, the way I read 95.7 is that is as long as your input and output are any of the frequencies in the separate approved lists you are in compliance.

Am I missing another rule?



#7 SteveC7010

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Posted 21 May 2016 - 08:07 PM

Hello,

I'm new to the forums but not new to GMRS. Although you'd want to use the standardized repeater pairs if you want your repeater to be easily found and accessed, I'm not aware of any FCC rule that specifies a 5 MHz offset.

 

Referencing 47 CFR 95.7 (a), it says:

(a) Channels or channel pairs (one 462 MHz frequency listed in § 95.29(a) of this part and one 467 MHz frequency listed in § (95.29(b )  of this part are available to GMRS systems only on a shared basis and will not be assigned for the exclusive use of any licensee.

 

§ 95.29 Channels available.

(a) For a base station, fixed station, mobile station, or repeater station (a GMRS station that simultaneously retransmits the transmission of another GMRS station on a different channel or channels), the licensee of the GMRS system must select the transmitting channels or channel pairs (see§ 95.7(a) of this part) for the stations in the GMRS system from the following 462 MHz channels:
462.5500, 462.5750, 462.6000, 462.6250, 462.6500, 462.6750, 462.7000 and 462.7250.
(For a mobile station, control station, or fixed station operated in the duplex mode, the following 467 MHz channels may be used only to transmit communications through a repeater station and for remotely controlling a repeater station. The licensee of the GMRS system must select the transmitting channels or channel pairs (see§ 95.7(a) of this part) for the stations operated in the duplex mode, from the following 467 MHz channels:
467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000 and 467.7250.

 

Although 95.29 refers to channel pairs, the way I read 95.7 is that is as long as your input and output are any of the frequencies in the separate approved lists you are in compliance.

Am I missing another rule?

 

I'm not going to debate miniscule details of FCC regs. I would simply say the 99.9999999% of GRMS users accept and expect the pairs to be used as defined. If one were to use a mixed pair, it would almost certainly cause interference with other users operating on the normal pairs. It's arguable that one could do it somewhere that no one else operates, i suppose, but as soon as another GMRS operator is present, the argument is deflated. Personally, I would call it intentional disruption of normal GMRS operations. If someone were to actually do it in my sphere of operation, I'd have some very unkind words.

 

I'd also add that I believe the intent of the regs is to clearly define the pairs, even if it's not as crystal clear as one might like. I am certain that a clarification from the FCC would support that. Let's remember that there's a lot stuff in the regs that reads contradictory to each other, and yet, past practice and occasional clarification from the FCC has sorted most out. There's a lot of outhouse lawyers that want endlessly debate this stuff in the forums. I think it's a waste of time and effort to pick at these nits.


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#8 SteveC7010

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 06:00 AM

Another point to consider is that all UHF Part 90 repeater pairs are also in exact 5 Mhz offsets. Since the 8 GMRS pairs fall right in the middle of Part 90 allocations, I suspect that somewhere buried in the FCC regs, there is a clear rule about it.

 

Like I said in my previous post, I am not going to spend any effort on debating the miniscule nuances and contradictions in the FCC regs. Given the allocation of exact 5 MHZ offsets in the UHF spectrum across multiple Parts and Services of the FCC regs, I simply accept that it is correct and proper for GMRS as well regardless of the possible vagueness of some of the wording. Finding the precise rule, for me at least is a waste of time and effort. It's a fool's errand at best.


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#9 jimndfw

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 06:37 AM

If your looking to keep un-approved user off your system, use DCS tones only < knocks bubble pack off right off the bat > and use separates DCS tones for input / output.



#10 zap

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 07:11 PM

If your looking to keep un-approved user off your system, use DCS tones only < knocks bubble pack off right off the bat > and use separates DCS tones for input / output.


Some are DPL capable. My favorite method is to use an analog output tone (avoid the tones around 135 Hz) and use a DPL input tone.

#11 Tom

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 07:42 AM

The poster (mainehazmt) asked if he 'could' use non-standard repeater pairs, not if he 'should'.

The replies were that he can't because the rules say he can't.

 

All I was pointing out is I don't read that in the rules regardless of what they intended, nothing more.

Finding the correctly worded rule is a fools errand because it doesn't exist.

What I did find in CFR 47 90.173(i) is:

(i) In the 450-470 MHz band, the frequencies are ordinarily assigned in pairs, with the mobile station transmit frequency 5 MHz above the paired base station transmit frequency. In the 470-512 MHz band, the frequencies are ordinarily assigned in pairs with the mobile station transmit frequency 3 MHz above the paired base station transmit frequency.

 

But since GMRS falls under part 95 it wouldn't apply. If the FCC wanted to specifically assign 5 MHz offsets,

why wouldn't they word it the same way as they did in part 90?

Also, notice it said "ordinarily", which implies the rule isn't set in stone.

In any event, a part 90 frequency assignment would come via the recommendation of the local coordinator,

which GMRS doesn't have.

 

I completely agree in some urban areas where there is GMRS congestion that would cause an issue,

but for example where I am located there are only 2 GMRS repeaters located within 100 miles of me.

Looking up the posters callsign, I'm sure in Limestone, Maine there isn't a plethora of GMRS repeaters either.

So can we agree the answer could depend on your location?



#12 mainehazmt

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 05:20 AM

Looking up the posters callsign, I'm sure in Limestone, Maine there isn't a plethora of GMRS repeaters either.
So can we agree the answer could depend on your location?


Pretty good call on that. Last time I looked there were only 3 of us north of Bangor And I have only talked to one of them mostly on line here... More issues with kids playing on any and all freq. and then there is the road flagging crews with their foul mouths

#13 SteveC7010

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 07:02 AM


 

If your looking to keep un-approved user off your system, use DCS tones only < knocks bubble pack off right off the bat > and use separates DCS tones for input / output.

 

That only works until someone sits down with a scanner capable of detecting and identifying TPL/TCS and DPL/DCS and goes hunting for the info. All you have to do is be close enough to the transmitting unit in the field and you can immediately ID the DPL/DCS.

 

Some are DPL capable. My favorite method is to use an analog output tone (avoid the tones around 135 Hz) and use a DPL input tone.

 

Zap's method shoul successfully beat the bubble packs because I don't believe that they can do one mode on Tx and another on Rx. But if the interfering person has a commercial portable or mobile, all bets are off.


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#14 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 08:50 PM

Apologies for adding onto an old topic, but, I have a similar issue and didn't feel the need to create a new topic. With a Tx of 467.550 (123.0 PL) and Rx of 462.550 (123.0 PL) and a -5Mghz offset, I get nothing. Setting multiple different radios to the same frequency, I actually don't hear my own transmissions (or others) to my other radios and vice versa. That's the first issue I've had with a repeater.



#15 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 09:55 PM

There was a typo in that comment. I couldn't figure how to edit already posted comments. Though, I understand being a guest.



#16 mainehazmt

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 12:59 PM

Apologies for adding onto an old topic, but, I have a similar issue and didn't feel the need to create a new topic. With a Tx of 467.550 (123.0 PL) and Rx of 462.550 (123.0 PL) and a -5Mghz offset, I get nothing. Setting multiple different radios to the same frequency, I actually don't hear my own transmissions (or others) to my other radios and vice versa. That's the first issue I've had with a repeater.


trying to get on my repeater? Lol. It is down for a month right now....

#17 XSevenSonata

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 03:23 PM

trying to get on my repeater? Lol. It is down for a month right now....

 

Hey. I think I contacted you about it a couple days ago? I got the response. Yeah, I can wait. In the meantime, I'm still studying for amateur exams while I can get a ride to the exams. I may use Uber. It's kind of out of my ways as I don't drive. And, no friends/family to transport me. (I don't know how I was logged out during that initial post by the way)



#18 mainehazmt

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 12:31 PM

Hey. I think I contacted you about it a couple days ago? I got the response. Yeah, I can wait. In the meantime, I'm still studying for amateur exams while I can get a ride to the exams. I may use Uber. It's kind of out of my ways as I don't drive. And, no friends/family to transport me. (I don't know how I was logged out during that initial post by the way)

where are you at?

#19 XSevenSonata

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 01:49 PM

where are you at?

I messaged that. :)



#20 XSevenSonata

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 02:13 PM

Hey. I think I contacted you about it a couple days ago? I got the response. Yeah, I can wait. In the meantime, I'm still studying for amateur exams while I can get a ride to the exams. I may use Uber. It's kind of out of my ways as I don't drive. And, no friends/family to transport me. (I don't know how I was logged out during that initial post by the way)

That actually may not be you, or, is it? The owner I contacted regarding the repeater responded to me a couple days before your comment and told me it was down for maintenance, so, I assumed it was you. But, the names don't compute.





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