Electric Motor Vehicles with a 2-way radio

[Adamdaj]

Specking from someone who uses a Mobility Scooter and has a bit of knowledge of RF and RFI, but I tend to ask how my experience is different than the manufactures.

I been using Hand Held Transceivers while driving my scooter for years without RFI to the motors. Of course, Manufactures warn owners don't 2 - way radios, because the RF from the radio can effect. Individuals use their Cell Phones while driving, Of course, they're not driving on streets and interstates like regular vehicles. then while crossing heavy traffic streets, I guess no one should holding anything, but the Tiller. I never had any issues that caused malfunction to the motors on any scooter that I drove. 

[Lscott]

20 minutes ago, Adamdaj said:

Specking from someone who uses a Mobility Scooter and has a bit of knowledge of RF and RFI, but I tend to ask how my experience is different than the manufactures.

I been using Hand Held Transceivers while driving my scooter for years without RFI to the motors. Of course, Manufactures warn owners don't 2 - way radios, because the RF from the radio can effect. Individuals use their Cell Phones while driving, Of course, they're not driving on streets and interstates like regular vehicles. then while crossing heavy traffic streets, I guess no one should holding anything, but the Tiller. I never had any issues that caused malfunction to the motors on any scooter that I drove. 

That's a very good question.

Lately the auto manufactures want to eliminate AM radios from their vehicles. I strongly suspect there is much more to it than a simple cost cutting measure. I'm even more suspicious when an EV is involved. 

My professional work experience involves designing high power switching inverters for metal heating at high frequency. I know first hand just how much electrical RF trash these things generate. I also consult with a buddy who does work over the years on EV motor drives, very similar in design principle to what I do. In his case they have to do extensive EMC, electromagnetic compatibility, testing.

The AM radios are amplitude modulated receivers in the frequency range of 550KHz to 1600KHz. Some of the EV motor drives operate up to 150KHz in some cases. The harmonics from the switching waveforms can easily end up in the AM radio broadcast band. I think the manufactures just want to eliminate the AM radio option rather than spending gobs of money trying to shield the motor drive inverter electronics so it doesn't trash the radio in the dash. If it's not there then there is no complaints they have to deal with fixing.

[Lscott]

10 minutes ago, Adamdaj said:

Thank you for giving me an answer! I was just trying figure out you typical Power Wheelchair or Mobility Scooter would issues with the use of Two-Way Radios.

The majority of Airports or Railroad Terminals use Terminal Carts, which are Electric Vehicles. Of course, the operator uses their 2-way radio. However, I'm not sure if I have facts right when it comes to a two-way radio while moving. Does it effect, all electric vehicles or only wheelchairs and mobility scooters??

Like I said in my question, I know that don't have any issues with talking and moving at the same time. I wouldn't use an old AM CB, because AM would definitely pick up motor RF and add hum.

If I'm rambling on, please shut me up. I apologize for sounding like why I asked this question in the first place. I 

I would suspect that the use of an FM radio would be less of an issue from a receiver stand point. However the RF generated could, in theory, could even jam an FM radio. I guess the real way to find out is get a radio and just try it. Basically any kind of motor controller can cause RF trash to be generated. The higher the voltage the controller uses the more likely the noise will be greater in amplitude. Also the closer the radio is to the motor controller, motor or interconnecting cables the more likely you might experience a noise problem.

People have had issues with electric fuel pumps over the years. Usually a capacitor and or ferrite installed on the wires by it works in some cases to cure the noise problem.

Somebody else was asking about fuel injector noise. Fuel injectors use a moderate high frequency AC signal on the main signal that activates the fuel injector. The injectors use a solenoid to force fuel into the cylinder. The solenoid shaft has a habit of sticking. The moderate high frequency signal, manufactures call it a "dither current" I believe, that very slightly vibrates the solenoid shaft to keep it from sticking and could be a source for RF noise.

[WRKC935]

Well, there are two types of interference. 

The first being interference FROM the vehicle / device / whatever that would interfere with the operation of a radio in close proximity to the device.  This would typically be noise generated from the device / vehicle that would either show up in the receive of the radio or in come cases show up on the transmitted audio of the radio being used.

Second type is the radio transmissions getting into the electronics of the device / vehicle and causing erratic operation or even damage to the electronic control systems of the device. 

Both are a possibility, but only one can possibly be harmful or expensive to deal with.  That of course being the device reacting to the RF field generated by the radio.

At handheld power levels, this is going to be very rare as the electronics on something like a mobility scooter would need to be tested for certain levels of RF exposure to be allowed to be sold as having those issues when going past a police car, fire truck, semi truck with a legal radio system or even a radio station could NOT put the user in danger of the loss of control of the scooter. 

The type of modulation used in the radio transmission can also effect the reaction of the equipment in question.  FM signals typically present the lowest probability of causing issues due to the nature of the continuous signal level during a transmission.  Other modes of transmission like DMR, CW, SSB and possibly AM could have effects on sensitive equipment that FM wouldn't bother. 

There is a LOT to all this, but I will say that since a mobility scooter is a 'medical device' the testing requirements on it are typically going to be rather high. 

A kids power scooter / E-bike / whatever may or may not have the same level of ability to deal with RF being near it.

 

[PRadio]

It never was about cost cutting, nor did the manufacturers cite that as a reason. Most want to remove it due to the problem with interference, Ford want to get rid of AM in electric and gas powered cars. I am sure part of the reason Ford wants to do that, is to standardize between the electric vehicles not having AM radio, and their gas powered counterparts, not as they claim, simply modernizing. 

https://thehill.com/homenews/nexstar_media_wire/4004678-say-goodbye-to-am-radio-why-carmakers-are-removing-it-from-new-models/

[Adamdaj]

39 minutes ago, Lscott said:

That's a very good question.

Lately the auto manufactures want to eliminate AM radios from their vehicles. I strongly suspect there is much more to it than a simple cost cutting measure. I'm even more suspicious when an EV is involved. 

My professional work experience involves designing high power switching inverters for metal heating at high frequency. I know first hand just how much electrical RF trash these things generate. I also consult with a buddy who does work over the years on EV motor drives, very similar in design principle to what I do. In his case they have to do extensive EMC, electromagnetic compatibility, testing.

The AM radios are amplitude modulated receivers in the frequency range of 550KHz to 1600KHz. Some of the EV motor drives operate up to 150KHz in some cases. The harmonics from the switching waveforms can easily end up in the AM radio broadcast band. I think the manufactures just want to eliminate the AM radio option rather than spending gobs of money trying to shield the motor drive inverter electronics so it doesn't trash the radio in the dash. If it's not there then there is no complaints they have to deal with fixing.

Thank you for giving me an answer! I was just trying figure out you typical Power Wheelchair or Mobility Scooter would issues with the use of Two-Way Radios.

The majority of Airports or Railroad Terminals use Terminal Carts, which are Electric Vehicles. Of course, the operator uses their 2-way radio. However, I'm not sure if I have facts right when it comes to a two-way radio while moving. Does it effect, all electric vehicles or only wheelchairs and mobility scooters??

Like I said in my question, I know that don't have any issues with talking and moving at the same time. I wouldn't use an old AM CB, because AM would definitely pick up motor RF and add hum.

If I'm rambling on, please shut me up. I apologize for sounding like why I asked this question in the first place. I 

[Sshannon]

5 hours ago, Adamdaj said:

Thank you for giving me an answer! I was just trying figure out you typical Power Wheelchair or Mobility Scooter would issues with the use of Two-Way Radios.

The majority of Airports or Railroad Terminals use Terminal Carts, which are Electric Vehicles. Of course, the operator uses their 2-way radio. However, I'm not sure if I have facts right when it comes to a two-way radio while moving. Does it effect, all electric vehicles or only wheelchairs and mobility scooters??

Like I said in my question, I know that don't have any issues with talking and moving at the same time. I wouldn't use an old AM CB, because AM would definitely pick up motor RF and add hum.

If I'm rambling on, please shut me up. I apologize for sounding like why I asked this question in the first place. I 

My wife gets around with Pride Elite GoGo scooter. As far as I can tell I never see any RFI and even when my 100 watt radio is transmitting it doesn’t appear to interfere with it. 

[Lscott]

9 hours ago, Sshannon said:

My wife gets around with Pride Elite GoGo scooter. As far as I can tell I never see any RFI and even when my 100 watt radio is transmitting it doesn’t appear to interfere with it. 

That's good news.

I have stumbled across a story where a guy was running 1KW in their mobile. When he keyed up it would kill the engine of the vehicle next to them. Yes it's a very rare occurrence but does happen.

I'm surprised this topic doesn't get discussed more often. As the electronics contents of vehicles goes up the "potential" of interference to or from the vehicle's electronics increases. And with EV's that get even more concerning. I'm sure manufactures are doing a good job of EMC testing and shielding, but nothing is perfect.

[WRXB215]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

And with EV's that get even more concerning. I'm sure manufactures are doing a good job of EMC testing and shielding, but nothing is perfect.

EV's have a long way to go before I feel comfortable buying one. A friend here at work just went through a long ordeal with his. It's brand new and it was in the shop for about 2 weeks.

[Sshannon]

1 hour ago, WRXB215 said:

EV's have a long way to go before I feel comfortable buying one. A friend here at work just went through a long ordeal with his. It's brand new and it was in the shop for about 2 weeks.

I have a friend who had a Chevy Volt.  He had really good luck with it but he needed something to pull a trailer.  He ended up selling the Volt to fix up his Suburban, which seemed like it was always in the shop.

Now he has an older F-150.  I hope he has better luck with it.

[Adamdaj]

 

Maybe I have already answered my question. Although I haven't any issues so far, I just wanted to see if anyone else had issues with using a 2-way radio or Cell Phone while operating a Mobility Scooter. I guess manufactures don't really do too much on the test stage when it comes to Activities or Tasks that user of the scooter is doing. My only experience as far as RFI while operating scooter is, a few retail stores RF anti-theft alarm. Well I hope I didn't waste anyone's time with an odd question.

[Sshannon]

1 hour ago, Adamdaj said:

 

Maybe I have already answered my question. Although I haven't any issues so far, I just wanted to see if anyone else had issues with using a 2-way radio or Cell Phone while operating a Mobility Scooter. I guess manufactures don't really do too much on the test stage when it comes to Activities or Tasks that user of the scooter is doing. My only experience as far as RFI while operating scooter is, a few retail stores RF anti-theft alarm. Well I hope I didn't waste anyone's time with an odd question.

It wasn’t a waste of my time. As I answered above I’ve never seen any issues with my wife’s mobility scooter. 

[Adamdaj]

Just now, Sshannon said:

It wasn’t a waste of my time. As I answered above I’ve never seen any issues with my wife’s mobility scooter. 

Yep, I got it. I just put that particular question on the table, because I read my owner's manual, I was curious to know why the manufacture emphasize Don't use Two Way Radios on scooters when I haven't had any issues. Doesn't really say anything about the use of cellular phones, even with a Bluetooth hands free device. I'm glad to hear that you haven't experience any issues with your wife's mobility scooter.   I can only what MTD is printing in their for Electric Lawn Tractors and industrial mowers.

Thank you

Mr. Shannon

[Sshannon]

10 minutes ago, Adamdaj said:

Yep, I got it. I just put that particular question on the table, because I read my owner's manual, I was curious to know why the manufacture emphasize Don't use Two Way Radios on scooters when I haven't had any issues. Doesn't really say anything about the use of cellular phones, even with a Bluetooth hands free device. I'm glad to hear that you haven't experience any issues with your wife's mobility scooter.   I can only what MTD is printing in their for Electric Lawn Tractors and industrial mowers.

Thank you

Mr. Shannon

I’m just Steve. You’re welcome!