Is this typical for a GMRS radio?

[SvenMarbles]

I recently purchased a Retevis RA87. Typically when I get a radio that already has all of those pre-programmed channels, I’ll connect it with the programming software and more or less wipe those and organize my channels and frequencies the way I like and alpha tag things etc.. I’ll make the first 5 or 6 channel memories as my local repeaters, and then have the 1-22 standard channel plan following that. 
 

The problem is that on the RA87, it appears that the channels 8-14 will not allow you to key up REGARDLESS of what frequencies you’ve programmed into them. I understand about the thing of mobiles supposing to have these channels locked per part 95. But the programming software is such that it seems to provide the ability to be able to have your memory channels be what you’d like, yet it maintains the TX lock out on 8-14. So why even provide the apparent option to be able to reprogram the frequencies in the channels? If it’s going to hard-lock out those channel spots for TX no matter what…
 

The RA87 doesn’t currently have Chirp support and the Retevis software does work FINE, but there doesn’t appear to be any sort of work around for this issue in any of the menus..

Anyone else experience this or know a work around? I suppose I’ll just put it back the way it comes and use it that way, but it seems odd that it would provide for a customization that is completely in conflict to some type of baked-in lock out on the radio..

[Socalgmrs]

This is why I won’t own a retivis or a “gmrs” only radio.  I don’t like to be locked down. 

[kidphc]

Shrug.

I know om my gmrs v1 from baofeng. The firmware allowed me to change the frs memory slots. But I couldn't change the power on those memory slots (stuck in low).

Personally, I would say box the radios up and return them. Get something else that might be inline more with your customization wants.

Maybe a motorola xts?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[tweiss3]

Its the requirement of Part95, mobiles/bases cannot transmit on 8-14, so they firmware lock those from transmit.

[Socalgmrs]

18 minutes ago, kidphc said:

Shrug.

I know om my gmrs v1 from baofeng. The firmware allowed me to change the frs memory slots. But I couldn't change the power on those memory slots (stuck in low).

Personally, I would say box the radios up and return them. Get something else that might be inline more with your customization wants.

Maybe a motorola xts?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
 

One does not need a Motorola xts to be able to do this.  Many many many none gmrs radios have the ability.  An xts would require specialized cps programming that is way more complicated.   Plus an xts is a hand held and he currently has a mobile unit.   

[kidphc]

One does not need a Motorola xts to be able to do this.  Many many many none gmrs radios have the ability.  An xts would require specialized cps programming that is way more complicated.   Plus an xts is a hand held and he currently has a mobile unit.   

Missed it was a mobile.

You are correct about the options. Was just a suggestion. Because it sounds like he was tired of the china experience of programming. I get the m cps is a pain to learn.

For cheap and easy the db20g on mobile is hard to beat.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[amaff]

A whole lot of GMRS radios are *extremely* lazily programmed, and heavy-handed in how they allow you to customize them.

Other than a couple Wouxun KG-905Gs (which allowed me to program them however I wanted, but enforce the rules on what frequencies can get what power / bandwidth), all my other stuff is unlocked, and I manually program them to the rules so that all my stuff matches and is, technically, more or less, compliant. Even my mobile (DB20-G)...
It shouldn't care what frequency you put in a particular memory slot (IE: If you want to program a repeater on memory slot 8, then you should be able to). But plenty of radios really don't like those first 22 (or 30) slots being messed with.

The RT95 (Anytone 778) and DB20G (Anytone 779) can, but a quick google unfortunately doesn't come up with much for unlocking or jailbreaking the RA87. And those are 'only' 25 and 20 watt radios, respectively.

[SvenMarbles]

I actually really like this radio. Aside from this quirk, I don’t have any other complaints so far. I just got annoyed by this after completing my whole little custom programming session, and learned it after the fact and have this whole chunk of frequencies in the middle of my memories that I can’t transmit on.. The solution is pretty simple, I just will skip over programming 8-14 entirely . Turning the knob will just go from 7 to 15, and I alpha tag what the channel is anyway since I don’t put FRS/GMRS 1 at channel 1. I just have to re-do my programming is all..

I was going to do a review of this radio in the Reviews forum in another day or so, and it’s shaping up to be a positive one. Dumb issues like this, and only having 6 characters for alpha aside. It’s a radio that radios good. It’s a 40 watter that puts 40 watts on the meter, on the dot. Super loud speaker, and “loud full quieting” reports from my end on my radio checks.. Built super well. It’s a hunk of steel. Good mic, tactile ptt click. Doesn’t feel cheap. 

[WRQC527]

7 hours ago, SvenMarbles said:

on the RA87, it appears that the channels 8-14 will not allow you to key up REGARDLESS of what frequencies you’ve programmed into them.

That's because for FRS, those frequencies are FCC-limited to a half a watt narrowband, and for GMRS, FCC-limited to handheld radios only and the same half watt narrowband. So on mobile radios, the manufacturer simply blocks them from transmitting, but still allows receiving.

§ 95.567 FRS transmit power.

Each FRS transmitter type must be designed such that the effective radiated power (ERP) on channels 8 through 14 does not exceed 0.5 Watts and the ERP on channels 1 through 7 and 15 through 22 does not exceed 2.0 Watts.

 

§ 95.1763 GMRS channels.

(d) 467 MHz interstitial channels. Only hand-held portable units may transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5625, 467.5875, 467.6125, 467.6375, 467.6625, 467.6875, and 467.7125 MHz.

[SvenMarbles]

6 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

That's because for FRS, those frequencies are FCC-limited to a half a watt narrowband, and for GMRS, FCC-limited to handheld radios only and the same half watt narrowband. So on mobile radios, the manufacturer simply blocks them from transmitting, but still allows receiving.

§ 95.567 FRS transmit power.

Each FRS transmitter type must be designed such that the effective radiated power (ERP) on channels 8 through 14 does not exceed 0.5 Watts and the ERP on channels 1 through 7 and 15 through 22 does not exceed 2.0 Watts.

 

§ 95.1763 GMRS channels.

(d) 467 MHz interstitial channels. Only hand-held portable units may transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5625, 467.5875, 467.6125, 467.6375, 467.6625, 467.6875, and 467.7125 MHz.

I understand ALL of that. My point was that it’s MEMORY channel 8-14 that are locked. So regardless of how I choose to program the radio, perhaps with repeater channels on the first 5 and then GMRS simplexes 1-22 from memory channels 6 and down. It locks out TX on the memory channels 8-14 even though there are different “channels” on them now. 

[WRQC527]

14 minutes ago, SvenMarbles said:

I understand ALL of that. My point was that it’s MEMORY channel 8-14 that are locked. So regardless of how I choose to program the radio, with repeater channels on the first 5 and then GMRS simplexes 1-22 from memory channels 6 and down. It locks out TX on the memory channels 8-14 even though there are different “channels” on them now. 

It looks like in the manufacturer's efforts to maintain compliance with the FCC and channel number consistency with other GMRS and FRS radios, the firmware is looking at only the channel numbers when you press the PTT, and doesn't care about what the frequencies are. From a firmware simplicity standpoint, it's probably easier for them to just lock out those seven channels instead of programming the firmware to look for specific frequencies, bandwidth and power levels.

[SvenMarbles]

3 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

It looks like in the manufacturer's efforts to maintain compliance with the FCC, the firmware is looking at only the channel numbers when you press the PTT, and doesn't care about what the frequencies are. From a firmware simplicity standpoint, it's probably easier for them to just lock out those seven channels instead of programming the firmware to look for specific frequencies, bandwidth and power levels.

Yeah it makes sense. “It satisfied the part 95 requirement”.. So it is so..

Now obviously I can stick “GMRS Channel 8” on memory channel 15 and blast 40 watts on it… But,.. like you said, it was a measure that satisfied the FCC requirements to get the cert.

[amaff]

Like I said, lazy programming.

But yeah if you can just skip memory slots 8-14 and do whatever you want (within The Rules) on the rest of them, seems like it's fairly easily ignorable

[SvenMarbles]

10 minutes ago, amaff said:

Like I said, lazy programming.

But yeah if you can just skip memory slots 8-14 and do whatever you want (within The Rules) on the rest of them, seems like it's fairly easily ignorable

It is.. I just wish I knew this before I spent 45 minutes punching in all my stuff that I like to have . And with this Retevis software it doesn’t let you “insert blank row below” like chirp. So basically everything south of channel 8 needs to be tediously re-typed in… 

[WRQC527]

10 minutes ago, amaff said:

Like I said, lazy programming.

But yeah if you can just skip memory slots 8-14 and do whatever you want (within The Rules) on the rest of them, seems like it's fairly easily ignorable

The Wouxun KG-905G you mentioned is a handheld radio. Handheld GMRS radios have no restrictions on what channels they can transmit on. Mobile radios do. It's not lazy programming, it's firmware that the manufacturer has produced in order to stay within the FCC's regulations and sell compliant GMRS radios. 

[amaff]

Yeah I get that. Radioddity and Wouxun's software is the same. Super annoying. Once it's done, it's done. And it's still easier than doing it all by hand on the face of the radio. But it could so easily be so much better.

[amaff]

Just now, WRQC527 said:

The Wouxun KG-905G you mentioned is a handheld radio. Handheld GMRS radios have no restrictions on what channels they can transmit on. Mobile radios do. It's not lazy programming, it's firmware that the manufacturer has produced in order to stay within the FCC's regulations and sell compliant GMRS radios. 

You can transmit on those channels with a handheld, but there are restrictions on power level and bandwidth. The radio doesn't care what memory slot I put those frequencies into, it'll obey the rules. And if I put a frequency that allows 5 watts in memory slot, say, 8, it uses high power.

Like Sven said, it's arbitrarily blocking off *memory slots* 8-14, no matter what's actually in those memory slots.
You definitely can't transmit on 467.5625 / Ch8 on a GMRS Mobile. But you can't transmit on that frequency whether or not you put it in memory channel 1 or 499. There's not something magical about *memory slots* 8-14. It's the actual frequencies that matter. If wants to put a repeater frequency in one of those memory slots, it not allowing transmit because "it's 8-14" is lazy programming.

[WRQC527]

4 minutes ago, amaff said:

Yeah I get that. Radioddity and Wouxun's software is the same. Super annoying. Once it's done, it's done. And it's still easier than doing it all by hand on the face of the radio. But it could so easily be so much better.

Just remember who these manufacturers are marketing to. There's a huge market for people who just want to buy a radio and use it out of the box with as little drama as possible. There's a much smaller market that wants to buy a radio and immediately connect it to their favorite software and change everything. The money is in the huge market.

[amaff]

You can have a radio that works right out of the box (like the aforementioned 905G), but that also allows you to do more or less what you want while following the rules.

Just for fun, and to illustrate: I have a repeater channel in memory slot 9, a low power channel in memory slot 11, and a normal 5W GMRS channel in 11.

 

Given Sven's experience, it'd be interesting to know if it allows transmitting on those frequencies, so long as they're not in one of the magical memory spots. Probably not. But it'd be funny

[WRQC527]

6 minutes ago, amaff said:

You can transmit on those channels with a handheld, but there are restrictions on power level and bandwidth. The radio doesn't care what memory slot I put those frequencies into, it'll obey the rules. And if I put a frequency that allows 5 watts in memory slot, say, 8, it uses high power.

Like Sven said, it's arbitrarily blocking off *memory slots* 8-14, no matter what's actually in those memory slots.
You definitely can't transmit on 467.5625 / Ch8 on a GMRS Mobile. But you can't transmit on that frequency whether or not you put it in memory channel 1 or 499. There's not something magical about *memory slots* 8-14. It's the actual frequencies that matter. If wants to put a repeater frequency in one of those memory slots, it not allowing transmit because "it's 8-14" is lazy programming.

Another issue is that it would be pretty tough to get a mobile radio to emit half a watt ERP, especially when it's powered by a car battery or alternator and has a high gain antenna. They're more interested in compliance than with your ability to modify channels.

[amaff]

I feel like we're talking past each other.
A mobile GMRS radio should never transmit on the interstitial frequencies, *no matter what memory slot they're in*.

They can (and should) comply with that by enforcing the rules on those frequencies no matter where in the radio's memory they are.  You can 100% comply with the FCC's rules while not arbitrarily blocking out those memory slots. Lots of radios do it.

[SvenMarbles]

23 minutes ago, amaff said:

You can transmit on those channels with a handheld, but there are restrictions on power level and bandwidth. The radio doesn't care what memory slot I put those frequencies into, it'll obey the rules. And if I put a frequency that allows 5 watts in memory slot, say, 8, it uses high power.

Like Sven said, it's arbitrarily blocking off *memory slots* 8-14, no matter what's actually in those memory slots.
You definitely can't transmit on 467.5625 / Ch8 on a GMRS Mobile. But you can't transmit on that frequency whether or not you put it in memory channel 1 or 499. There's not something magical about *memory slots* 8-14. It's the actual frequencies that matter. If wants to put a repeater frequency in one of those memory slots, it not allowing transmit because "it's 8-14" is lazy programming.

God damn I’m glad there’s someone following along…

[SvenMarbles]

12 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

Another issue is that it would be pretty tough to get a mobile radio to emit half a watt ERP, especially when it's powered by a car battery or alternator and has a high gain antenna. They're more interested in compliance than with your ability to modify channels.

The rule isn’t ERP.. 

[SteveShannon]

49 minutes ago, SvenMarbles said:

The rule isn’t ERP.. 

467 MHz interstitial channels. The effective radiated power (ERP) of hand-held portable units transmitting on the 467 MHz interstitial channels must not exceed 0.5 Watt. Each GMRS transmitter type capable of transmitting on these channels must be designed such that the ERP does not exceed 0.5 Watt.

[WRQC527]

9 hours ago, Sshannon said:

467 MHz interstitial channels. The effective radiated power (ERP) of hand-held portable units transmitting on the 467 MHz interstitial channels must not exceed 0.5 Watt. Each GMRS transmitter type capable of transmitting on these channels must be designed such that the ERP does not exceed 0.5 watts.

I guess he's not "following along".