Immediate family use of gmrs callsign

[marcspaz]

 

Now that Randy has officially accepted blame (thank you, Sir), its safe for me to start some trouble....

 

6 hours ago, WRXB215 said:

The way I understand the intent of this regulation is that when the licensee and his family are taking part in some sort of outing together, the licensee can hand out GMRS radios to his family members and allow them to use the radios and call sign during the event. Using the call sign of a licensee who lives in another state to rag chew locally seems to be a stretch to me.

 

2 hours ago, Hoppyjr said:

Good thing you’re not in charge.

 

As Steve posted above, 95.1705(f)(2) says "The licensee must maintain access to and control over all stations authorized under its license."  Being 4 hours away is definitely not maintaining "access to and control over" the licensee's station.  While we don't know the actual intent of the rule, based on the way the paragraph is written, I am inclined to agree with @WRXB215 interpretation of the rule.

 

 

[SteveShannon]

6 hours ago, WRXB215 said:

The way I understand the intent of this regulation is that when the licensee and his family are taking part in some sort of outing together, the licensee can hand out GMRS radios to his family members and allow them to use the radios and call sign during the event. Using the call sign of a licensee who lives in another state to rag chew locally seems to be a stretch to me.

I agree.

[TrikeRadio]

4 hours ago, marcspaz said:

As Steve posted above, 95.1705(f)(2) says "The licensee must maintain access to and control over all stations authorized under its license."  Being 4 hours away is definitely not maintaining "access to and control over" the licensee's station.  While we don't know the actual intent of the rule, based on the way the paragraph is written, I am inclined to agree with @WRXB215 interpretation of the rule.

And as @WRXB215 Stated earlier in the tread... it might be more appropriate for her to user your sister's callsign if she lives closer... use it as unit two or something.

[WRQC527]

All this back-and-forth over how many people you can cram under a $35 license. Seems like if these brothers, sisters and nephews ponied up $5 each, they could buy mom her own license. Happy birthday mom!

[WRYZ926]

We had this discussion a few times while getting our club interested in a GMRS repeater and while we were in the testing phase. Opinions varied with club members about the same as it does here. And the conversation got heated  at times too. We even had one guy say "GMRS would cover the entire state of Arkansas"

Here is just my humble opinion, which very well could be wrong. Immediate family means just that and doesn't include one's 2nd, 3rd, 4th cousins etc, etc. It's also my opinion that giving mom or grandma a radio when they live in a different state is not right either. Now handing out a bunch of radios at a family gathering would be perfectly fine. Again all of this is just my opinion, right or wrong.  Remember everyone is entitled to their own opinion. as long as they don't try to force others to fell the same way.

[SteveShannon]

28 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

Here is just my humble opinion, which very well could be wrong. Immediate family means just that and doesn't include one's 2nd, 3rd, 4th cousins etc, etc. It's also my opinion that giving mom or grandma a radio when they live in a different state is not right either. Now handing out a bunch of radios at a family gathering would be perfectly fine. Again all of this is just my opinion, right or wrong.  Remember everyone is entitled to their own opinion. as long as they don't try to force others to fell the same way.

I agree with you. The actual relationships allowed to use a license are very specifically defined in the regulations, as is the requirement that the licensee/owner of the radio be able to access and control the use of the radio at all times.  But humans being humans, people will always look for ways to stretch regulations or complain about the government’s regulatory authority.  A conversation like this will never be settled.

[WRUU653]

4 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

All this back-and-forth over how many people you can cram under a $35 license. Seems like if these brothers, sisters and nephews ponied up $5 each, they could buy mom her own license. Happy birthday mom!

I like how you think. Just get mom her own license, isn’t she worth it?

[WRQC527]

5 hours ago, WRYZ926 said:

"GMRS would cover the entire state of Arkansas"

That is by far the funniest thing I've heard all day! Thanks for the laugh. I needed it.

[Raybestos]

On 8/14/2024 at 10:24 PM, marcspaz said:

As Steve posted above, 95.1705(f)(2) says "The licensee must maintain access to and control over all stations authorized under its license."  Being 4 hours away is definitely not maintaining "access to and control over" the licensee's station.  While we don't know the actual intent of the rule, based on the way the paragraph is written, I am inclined to agree with @WRXB215 interpretation of the rule.

 

 

Hi Marc!  Not trying to be contrary, although I do have a knack for it at times, but consider the following scenario.  Your wife (or any GMRS licensee's wife) is about to take your (or their) kids to visit her parents, four hours away.  Your job won't let you off to make this trip with them.  She has a GMRS mobile in her car and operates under your license, as your kids occasionally do, also.  She has packed enough GMRS ht's to allow one for herself and each of the kids.  The kids love exploring the expansive farm their grandparents own and the radios provide a measure of convenience and safety while they are away from the house.  You (or any licensee) see what she is doing.  You go out to the car and disconnect the microphone from her mobile radio.  You also collect all of the GMRS ht's she packed and replace them with non-licensed FRS radios you had laying around from the days before you took the plunge and got into GMRS.  She is walking to the car to be sure everything is packed before getting the kids ready to get in the car.  She encounters you, walking towards the house; a mobile mic and several GMRS ht's burdening your arms.  The dialog that follows goes something like this:

Wife: "Where are you going with my mobile mic and the GMRS ht's????"

Licensee:  "You will be four hours away and  95.1705(f)(2) says "The licensee must maintain access to and control over all stations authorized under its license."  Being 4 hours away is definitely not maintaining "access to and control over" the licensee's station.  Sorry, but I am not risking the sanctity of my license by trusting you guys with GMRS radios while you are four hours away."

Being this is a family-oriented site, I will not go further with the dialog which followed.    Yes, this is a reduction to absurdity, but there are some people out there in the world who practice absurdity and practice it often.

Going back and reading the original poster's comment, his mom will be using ht's and simplex to communicate with family.  I doubt anyone will notice or know if they are using GMRS or FRS since all frequencies are shared, except for repeater inputs.  In fact, if they don't use call signs or have a license, I doubt anyone would care on simplex.  The only way anyone would probably care is if his mom finds she enjoys chatting on repeaters in the area.  In most areas I am aware of, if on a repeater, all the owner(s) cares about is that you are using a valid call sign not pirated from someone without their permission.  I know the repeater that I am part owner of, that is all we care about.  Of course, there are some really an-l owners out there, too.  In my state, there is one guy who I understand, wants to know your name and call, and the names, Unit numbers, and their relation to you, of anyone operating under your call, before granting permission to use his repeaters.    In another part of the state, the owner wants to know what make and models of radios you will be using.    My group, we just want you to ID and generally follow the rules.  Any discrepancies regarding relation to people using your call sign or type of equipment is between you and the FCC, as if they care.

[WRXR255]

On 8/15/2024 at 8:31 AM, WRUU653 said:

I like how you think. Just get mom her own license, isn’t she worth it?

Good point.

Dear Mom,

How are you doing?

The siblings and I know you are short on funds, and cannot make this months mortgage payment, so we got together and chipped in.

You now have a GMRS license! So exciting!

Anyway, Love you!

Your kids.

(Yes, im going to hell 8-P )

[LeoG]

Maybe Mom doesn't want to go through the daunting exercise of bouncing from govt website to website in order to manage the jungle to obtain said license.  It's only $35 in monies but it's 3 years off your lifespan because of what you need to go through to get it.

[marcspaz]

@Raybestos integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking. I try to have integrity, but we all have moments of weakness. 

 

I didn't write the rules. Like many others, I just interpret them the best I can and honor them with all the integrity I can muster. 

[SteveShannon]

15 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

@Raybestos integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking. I try to have integrity, but we all have moments of weakness. 

 

I didn't write the rules. Like many others, I just interpret them the best I can and honor them with all the integrity I can muster. 

As we all should.  

[LeoG]

That scenario Raybestos described is just about any situation a family might use GMRS for.  Going to the beach, a campsite are all going to be a hour or so away from the "home base" where you have control.

What if the home base is the mobile in the car?  Now you are in full control because you brought it with you.  I had HTs when I signed up for my license.  Is that my "control" unit?  My next was the mobile unit in my truck.  My base station was last.

So if I bring that 1st HT with my I have all the control I need over it and my license.

[SteveShannon]

6 hours ago, LeoG said:

That scenario Raybestos described is just about any situation a family might use GMRS for.  Going to the beach, a campsite are all going to be a hour or so away from the "home base" where you have control.

What if the home base is the mobile in the car?  Now you are in full control because you brought it with you.  I had HTs when I signed up for my license.  Is that my "control" unit?  My next was the mobile unit in my truck.  My base station was last.

So if I bring that 1st HT with my I have all the control I need over it and my license.

This has nothing to do with a “control unit”, just the ability of the license holder to impose a modicum of control over the use of their license and stations, remembering that they are responsible for the actions of everyone they authorize to use their stations. 
99.9% of the time nobody would know, but it doesn’t change the requirement. 

[WRUU653]

15 hours ago, Raybestos said:

Wife: "Where are you going with my mobile mic and the GMRS ht's????"

 

15 hours ago, Raybestos said:

"You will be four hours away. Sorry, but I am not risking the sanctity of my license by trusting you guys with GMRS radios while you are four hours away."

Soooo, he’s single now?  
 

edit: I guess we know why she’s packing up and heading to the parents.

Edited September 9 by WRUU653

[LeoG]

53 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

This has nothing to do with a “control unit”, just the ability of the license holder to impose a modicum of control over the use of their license and stations, remembering that they are responsible for the actions of everyone they authorize to use their stations. 
99.9% of the time nobody would know, but it doesn’t change the requirement. 

No one can control another at a distance.  If all of a sudden one of your users goes crazy and starts rants of a raving lunatic there is little you can do about it immediately.  Eventually you can take the radio away.

[NotARubiksCube]

On 8/14/2024 at 7:24 PM, marcspaz said:

As Steve posted above, 95.1705(f)(2) says "The licensee must maintain access to and control over all stations authorized under its license."  Being 4 hours away is definitely not maintaining "access to and control over" the licensee's station.  While we don't know the actual intent of the rule, based on the way the paragraph is written, I am inclined to agree with @WRXB215 interpretation of the rule.

I agree with raybestos and LeoG. I don't think the FCC would agree that 4 hours' distance (or any specific distance) renders a station inaccessible or uncontrollable by the licensee. 

Another illustration: Let's assume that you're out with many family members hiking rough terrain divided into several different hiking parties, and that you, the licensee, have handed out radios to each party. While hiking, it's plausible that these family parties may find themselves in locations that are located multiple hours away from you by foot--the only means of ground travel--and yet still be within GMRS range of you. You obviously no longer have direct "access to and control over" all of the stations, yet surely even the strictest interpreter of the FCC rule would agree that this is a legitimate use of the your radios by your family. Therefore, the FCC does not intend your "access to and control over" the stations used by other family members to be immediate or direct. (Although one could argue that the FCC intends the family member's use to be only in the presence of the licensee, this would be pure speculation since the rule doesn't say that, and surely the FCC doesn't intend to allow the licensee's family members to use the radio to talk to anyone except the licensee, which would be the case if the FCC required the licensee to be physically present and thus have no need for GMRS communication.)

Since GMRS range is limited, in the absence of an FCC definition of "access to and control over," it's reasonable to conclude that any GMRS licensee has access to and control over all radios he/she owns that are in the possession of family members related to the licensee as specified in the rule, as long as they are within the normal GMRS range of the licensee using accessible repeaters. (I say "normal range" because if there's a reasonable hope of contacting each other via GMRS, then the FCC is unlikely to consider the distance to exceed the limits of "access to and control over" just because there happens to be an RF shadow between them, or a repeater goes offline, or whatever.)

 

 

[LeeBo]

On 8/14/2024 at 9:22 AM, quarterwave said:

Mother in laws, on the other hand, require special certification and licensing. 

ACCESS DENIED!!!!!

[WRKC935]

Jesus God almighty!!!! You all talk like it's a NFA stamped singularly owned automatic weapon that the ATF says you must be in arms reach of at all times with someone else is handling it.  It's a GMRS radio.  

And Yes, anything that carries a tax stamp including suppressors, automatic weapons, short barreled shotguns, or the AOW (Any Other Weapon) can be shot by others that are not owners of the firearm, but the owner or a representative of the trust that owns the firearm MUST be within arms reach of the weapon at all times.  If you go to a range that rents these you will have an employee of the business standing RIGHT THERE when you are handling, shooting, or even close to the firearm.  And they walk it out to the range with you, hold on to it until you are ready to shoot it and then hand it to you while remaining right next to you.  It's not because the M16 is 30 thousand dollars and an expensive AR15 might get up to 4K that is missing like 4 or 5 parts the M16 has.  It's because they can loose their 30K weapon and all the other weapons they have including the normal stuff if they get caught NOT doing it by the book.

There was a time that a ham repeater required a phone line or other RF control outside of the receive frequency for positive control of the repeater to take it off the air if there was a problem with someone being on it that shouldn't be.  Those days are gone.  Now you are required to have access to the repeater in 'a timely manner'.  That could be 24 or 48 hours depending on the location of the install. 

And positive control could be as simple as being able to make a call and tell someone to not use the radio.  Once you have informed them your hands are clean of it.  Same with ham radio, you get on the air and tell someone to ID or leave the repeater, or stop using a repeater they aren't suppose to be on, it's no longer your issue.  THe actions of the operator are their actions.  Once you tell someone to not use your call sign, even after being told it was OK, absolves you of fault. 

Your requirements are to inform the family member that would be otherwise authorized there is a requirement to ID using your call sign and an assigned unit number and that covers it. 

And yes, if your brothers and sisters have licenses, since she is their mother as well she could use any of their call signs and an assigned unit number.  And in truth that might be easier. 

But seriously, You have about as much of a chance of the FCC bringing in financial auditors to dig through a clubs books to verify they aren't selling air time on a repeater for profit as you do having them split hairs about your mother using your call sign and being too far away from you.  Because the way some have explained it here, you need to be in arms reach of anyone using your call sign to stop them from using GMRS in a manner not within the scope of the service or something.  

 

 

[marcspaz]

 

There are two different conversations when we talk about what the FCC might do verse what the rules say.  Don't twist the two.  We are talking about what the rules say; not what people have been getting away with.

 

§ 95.1705(b) states the holder of an individual license to operate GMRS stations is responsible at all times for the proper operation of the stations in compliance with all applicable rules.  Also, § 95.1705 (d)(1) says the holder of an individual license shall determine specifically which individuals, including family members, are allowed to operate (i.e., exercise operational control over) its GMRS station(s).  You can't accomplish any of that while the radio(s) or the person(s) using your call sign is 400 miles away. 

 

The operator must be at the 'control point'.  The 'control point' is any location where the operator of a Personal Radio Services station may reliably operate that station.  Now, techniques such as 'automatic control' and 'remote control' make it so the control operator does not have to be located at the transceiver and monitoring communications in order to avoid interference and rule violations.  However, the licensee is still in constant control as they are considered 'at the control point'.

[LeoG]

As soon as you are a few hundred feet away you can no longer consider being in control of that equipment.  Get separated by a hill, no longer in control.  They change channels and you can't find them, no longer in control.

You are dealing with humans.  You have no control.

[WRUU653]

36 minutes ago, LeoG said:

You are dealing with humans.  You have no control

I was just thinking this. It’s an illusion. Of course the minute you recognize that everybody has to get their own license.  theoretically that is.
In the real world it just doesn’t matter.  

 

because all the really good looking girls would still go out with the guys from Mohawk because they've got all the money!

[SteveShannon]

6 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

I was just thinking this. It’s an illusion. Of course the minute you recognize that everybody has to get their own license.  theoretically that is.
In the real world it just doesn’t matter.  

 

because all the really good looking girls would still go out with the guys from Mohawk because they've got all the money!

 

It seems clear to me from the regulations that the most common kind of scenario foreseen by the FCC in writing the regulations would be like a family going on an outing or working together in a family business and the licensed adult handing out handheld radios to everyone else in the family so they can stay in touch.  Access and control by the owner/licensee can be achieved by being able to communicate with those who have been provided with a radio by voice command.  “Gil, stop talking about good looking women on the radio!”  

[LeoG]

We can't talk about good looking women on the radio?  Guess I'll have to forfeit my license.