Govt Interference (Think About Who is Really TYRANICAL ) Votes Count

[Guest khughes74]

  Very dissapointed, just got my GMRS license approved today. I have been researching GMRS vs HAM, 

for a month. Went GMRS to start out first. Got my license , order some cheap hand helds ,  and mobile antenna. 

Thinking I could find out what's happening in this Country should we have an emergency. Just got blind sided by 

this new News that linking the Repeaters is not going to be available.  I guess , I'll have to start up the HAM, A.S.A.P.

 

[LeoG]

Not a lot of research I guess.  GMRS is a family radio service for close communications with the ability to access a repeater to help out range.  The linked repeater thing has been going on now for months and months and repeater owners have been disconnecting there linked systems to avoid FCC reprisal.  If this post was a year old then that would be one thing, now most of us know the FCC has reiterated that linked repeaters aren't allowed.

Still better than no communications during SHTF times.  I'm sure the $35 didn't hurt that much.

 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Guest khughes74 said:

  Very dissapointed, just got my GMRS license approved today. I have been researching GMRS vs HAM, 

for a month. Went GMRS to start out first. Got my license , order some cheap hand helds ,  and mobile antenna. 

Thinking I could find out what's happening in this Country should we have an emergency. Just got blind sided by 

this new News that linking the Repeaters is not going to be available.  I guess , I'll have to start up the HAM, A.S.A.P.

 

Let’s not start ANOTHER thread on linked repeaters,

In the event a really bad issue happens  that it becomes necessary to know what is happening beyond your immediate area, the linked repeaters would go down along with the internet. Therefore linked repeaters were never a good option for that.   Now gmrs and local repeaters with battery, solar, or generator back up MAY be a good option for this scenario on a local level.   GMRS has never been a good option for long distance comms.   HAM is the way to go if you want to know what is happening out in the rest of the country and world.   Plus you do not need a ham license to listen so even with no license you can hear what’s going on out in the world.    In reality you need both. BUT remember EVERY one else will also be flocking to ham and gmrs for comms license or not. So in a real SHTF senario the airwaves will be very busy.   

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, WRXP381 said:

In reality you need both. BUT remember EVERY one else will also be flocking to ham and gmrs for comms license or not. So in a real SHTF senario the airwaves will be very busy.

Unless you go off the official FCC reservations above. I guess this could be another whole topic itself.

[Hoppyjr]

Please no more, we’ve had enough of the linked repeater drama.

[WRQI663]

Any unlinked repeater drama?

[back4more70]

On 8/27/2024 at 6:46 PM, Guest khughes74 said:

  Very dissapointed, just got my GMRS license approved today. I have been researching GMRS vs HAM, 

for a month. Went GMRS to start out first. Got my license , order some cheap hand helds ,  and mobile antenna. 

Thinking I could find out what's happening in this Country should we have an emergency. Just got blind sided by 

this new News that linking the Repeaters is not going to be available.  I guess , I'll have to start up the HAM, A.S.A.P.

 

Keep in mind that there is a good chance that no radio service will work large-scale in an emergency.

[SteveShannon]

19 minutes ago, back4more70 said:

Keep in mind that there is a good chance that no radio service will work large-scale in an emergency.

What do you mean by “large-scale”?

[LeoG]

Well, the 7-11 in his neighborhood shut down.  You know, large scale emergency

 

I would suspect multi state.

[SteveShannon]

2 hours ago, LeoG said:

Well, the 7-11 in his neighborhood shut down.  You know, large scale emergency

 

Good one!

2 hours ago, LeoG said:

I would suspect multi state.

Because I’m pedantic, or hung up on semantics, he didn’t say “large-scale emergency”; he said “there is a good chance that no radio service will work large-scale in an emergency.”

So my question is what does he mean by “working large-scale”?  Is he suggesting all of the various bands available to hams would be congested or something else?

[808Beachbum]

1 hour ago, back4more70 said:

Keep in mind that there is a good chance that no radio service will work large-scale in an emergency.

That is why competent National/State/Local/Family groups perform multi-agency emergency simulation exercises. By doing so, those that actually take part, will (in theory) be reasonably efficient in carrying out their comms responsibilities, while overcoming expected "grid down" scenarios. There actually is such a thing as an incident command structure, and "traffic" systems (not vehicle traffic, message handling) that, on some level are always present, but when SHTF those systems ramp up as circumstances allow. It is up to the individuals to prepare for such events, including acquiring reasonable equipment with the necessary capabilities, and knowledge to, at a minimum, receive information; and, to potentially transmit critical information to the proper recipient. If you are clueless as to what capabilities are needed, how can you possibly prepare? You also need to practice setting up and using the proper equipment, so you are not bumbling when it really matters.

Otherwise, no one is coming to help you...

[WRHS218]

In a large scale emergency (what ever that means) you might want to have a Short Wave radio and a random piece of wire for an antenna. You can get news from all over the world.

[Tip10]

Keep in mind that there is a good chance that no radio service will work large-scale in an emergency.

It will all depend upon what you are expecting….

Only thing I’m looking for is comms between me and FOPs, and perhaps between me and neighbors in my MAG. All are within simplex GMRS range (except a couple who would be reachable with a single simplex relay).

Longer range comms would be monitored but nothing really expected from it….

Living in the boonies has its benefits!


Never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

[LeoG]

Right at the beginning of a comms down situation the govt is going to be worthless.  They will be figuring out how to communicate between themselves and starting up the plan for rescue etc.  It's in the beginning in the immediate need of communications between people, neighbors, family members and local businesses that going to be important to the people.  That's where the local radio communications are going to be important.

After 10s of hours, maybe days, that's when the govts will start to come back into play.

[808Beachbum]

56 minutes ago, LeoG said:

Right at the beginning of a comms down situation the govt is going to be worthless.  They will be figuring out how to communicate between themselves and starting up the plan for rescue etc.  It's in the beginning in the immediate need of communications between people, neighbors, family members and local businesses that going to be important to the people.  That's where the local radio communications are going to be important.

After 10s of hours, maybe days, that's when the govts will start to come back into play.

Well, the fact the govt is worthless is a whole 'nuther topic. BUT, the National/State/Local/Family groups I referred to above primarily is in regard to "served agencies" and other non-govt groups...whether that is a hiking or offroading club, or just your own family and friends group. You still need to know what works, and where you CAN get or relay info to if desired. There are numerous local groups, which vary by locale, that learn and practice many/all of the elements that will come into play when SHTF. This includes a variety of local HAM groups, such as ARES, RACES, and local Red Cross as well as less EMCOMM focused radio groups; and possibly GMRS groups. Make no mistake however, again, depending on your locale, but for instance here the State and County Emergency Management orgs, as well as a group consisting of local hospitals, all prepare for and take part in the annual simulation tests. That means Amateur Radio Operators manning off-grid stations across the islands, at Emergency Management Centers, at hospitals, at temporary Red Cross shelters, and other locations as determined based on the actual event. Some are just storm watchers, reporting actual conditions. Sorry, not "just", they are in the eye of the monster. In some locales, I understand the HAM clubs are embracing/coexisting with GMRS, but at their basis, they are very separate services, in terms of actual intent, capabilities, and acceptance for SHTF scenarios. Bottom line, when all else fails, and you need 911, you may have no choice but 144MHZ, or a 40 meter freq to talk with anyone that would be useful in some manner in the moment. You just need to know where, exactly, to look. Better to determine that beforehand, and practice.

[Newb]

Why did the FCC choose GMRS to attack?  Any ideas? They let CB run rampant. Why is there a different connection between the government and HAM radio?

[LeoG]

No repeaters on CB.

[WRXB215]

2 hours ago, WRHS218 said:

you might want to have a Short Wave radio and a random piece of wire for an antenna. You can get news from all over the world.

This is a good idea. But just a note for those that might not know, if you don't hear anything, it doesn't necessarily mean there is something wrong with your equipment. The bands "open" and "close" even now as we enter the solar max. Sometimes you just have to be patient till they open again.

[BoxCar]

24 minutes ago, Newb said:

Why did the FCC choose GMRS to attack?  Any ideas? They let CB run rampant. Why is there a different connection between the government and HAM radio?

 

22 minutes ago, LeoG said:

No repeaters on CB.

Ham radio does a decent job of monitoring itself to keep people and signals within their limits.

[Davichko5650]

44 minutes ago, Newb said:

Why did the FCC choose GMRS to attack?  Any ideas? They let CB run rampant. Why is there a different connection between the government and HAM radio?

Well, given we've seen no enforcement action yet on the linked repeaters, I don't see they "attacked" GMRS per se; they clarified to their view of specific regulations, to some degree.

 

CB has generally been ignored for enforcement other than in egregious cases of jamming or interference by operators.

Amateur radio has been around longer than the other services, has a better record of self policing and coordinating, long standing agreements and participation with EmComms , etc.

[FlatTop]

32 minutes ago, BoxCar said:

Ham radio does a decent job of monitoring itself to keep people and signals within their limits.

I got an email from some band cop telling me I was operating CW outside my limits.  I'm an Extra, and I was well within the band limits. 

Of course the email was from a remailer so I don't know the chicken lipped bastich was that tried to call me out. 

 

[FlatTop]

3 hours ago, WRHS218 said:

In a large scale emergency (what ever that means) you might want to have a Short Wave radio and a random piece of wire for an antenna. You can get news from all over the world.

Well not really.  If the transmitters aren't transmitting or can't transmit, the receivers can't receive.  If NorKor sends ONE nuke here, we will send them 82 nukes.  I saw it on Facebook so you know it's real. 

[DONE]

First off, reliance on 'linked repeaters' for emergency service, outside of stuff built out to public safety standards (meaning NO Internet links) is a bad idea.  You are putting reliance in something that's probably not going to work.

Second, GMRS is NOT an emergency use service.  Yes, it's radio, and it could be used for that purpose, but so can childrens walkie talkie's.  But it's not ideal.  The underlying technology and equipment would support it.  Before the advent of the huge 700/800 Mhz radio systems, public safety used UHF radio in many locations. 

But getting back to the linking.  And I am not going to debate the FCC's latest opinion.  Only the methods used for linking, why they are not good for mission critical communications and what actually would be useful for linking and why it's not possible with those technologies.

Common use linking was being done over the Internet.  And the connected Internet relies on a multitude of things to function.  Power and management being the top two.  In a SHTF situation, power isn't going to be available everywhere in most cases. Never mind the repeaters will require power.  But a local repeater can be solar / wind powered in some cases with battery backup for nights and windless days.  But you are NOT going to be able to maintain power everywhere that needs it in order to keep the Internet working.  So reliance on it is a dumb move in truth.

So what do the public safety systems use?  Mostly microwave linking.  All equipment is housed in the same location and the links are wireless, so as long as the towers are in the air, the links are running on the same power source that the repeaters are.  You have local control of that.  The solar / wind system can power all of it if it's built out to support it.  The drawback to it is the distance you can run microwave links.  The practical limit is about 30 to 50 miles.  So you aren't going to link large distances with it without additional hops.  The tower heights to get those distances are NOT going to be reasonable in most cases for you to have in your back yard either.  200 feet of height on both ends is going to be required for longer distances.  And if line of site isn't available, it's not going to work at all.  Coupled with the fact that when you have that sort of tower height to work with, the UHF radio propagation (how far it will talk) will exceed the distance the microwave can communicate due to the lower power microwave systems (typically they are under 1 watt) and the path loss of the higher frequency (GMRS is 465 Mhz and microwave is above 2 Ghz).  So then you run into taking up multiple repeater pairs, or running simulcast on a single frequency which is possible but expensive and requires additional technical skills and specific hardware to implement. 

Then you get into the issue of being linked to other places that don't care what your situation is.   By that I mean that if there is some wide area situation unfolding and multiple major population centers are being effected, population center A is not really gonna care about the issues that population center B is having.  They have their own problems.  People for get that there is more to managing a disaster situation than just being able to communicate it.  If Columbus Ohio is burning, Cleveland is NOT going to send fire trucks if Cleveland is on fire too. So you deal with your situation by yourself. 

The truth is that localized communications in a disaster are FAR more important than wide area linking.  If you and your neighbors all have the ability to communicate locally, then you have the ability to assist each other and check on their well being.  If there is a shelter in place situation and someone 3 blocks away needs some bottles of water, then getting them water is a possibility.  If you are informed in Columbus Ohio that someone in Ft Wayne Indiana needs bottled water, and there is a shelter in place mandate, are you gonna drive 200 miles to get them bottled water?  Of course not.  This is why ham radio isn't really relevant in disaster communications any more.  And are a solution looking for a problem that no longer exists.  They tout that they can communicate anywhere, relying on HF radio for long distance communications when the people that actually NEED long distance communications have satellite phones and then own HF nets to communicate on if needed.  The technology that public safety uses now is vastly superior to the old FM technology that hams and GMRS uses to communicate.  SO don't worry about linking in a disaster situation.  Build out a couple repeaters that have good backup power or alternate power sources from the grid and go with that.  It's going to be money better spent.

 

[WRUE951]

On 8/30/2024 at 8:05 AM, SteveShannon said:

What do you mean by “large-scale”?

i would say he is refering to electronic warfare which will undoubtedly be the aftermath of a nuclear war. We all know the effects and purpose  this level of an attack will  have on our the ability to communicate with other people across wide areas..   Yes you can stash your portables in a lead bag but what good will those radios do when all 'mountaintop repeater' is useless..   I think a lot of people underestiamae the potential  this 'large-scale' event is feasible and i won't say what i think of those 'fools'  Anyone with an open eye can see we are closer now then ever in history of pretty much total destruction.   I do have a few portables and batteries stashed in lead bags which i acquired from someone that has easy access to them..  Do i really relay on them to communicate in event of a 'large scale' electromaganitic event.. NOPE, not really but doing a little is better than doing nothing..   just sayin..  

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WRKC935 said:

This is why ham radio isn't really relevant in disaster communications any more.  And are a solution looking for a problem that no longer exists.

You were doing so well until you said the above.

I would agree that the role of ham radio is not what it once was, because of things like satellite communications like you mentioned, but in any true emergency, there’s always a role for yet another avenue of communications. Compared to the number of hams, satellite phones are very few.  As such, they should be relegated to the higher priority tasks.  But many people won’t have access to satellite phones and they will still crave hearing from their loved ones and still need to hear what’s happening in the rest of the world.