5 MHz Split

[Elbowmac]

I am attempting to program a repeater that does not have the standard +5Mhz into my radios. The radios I  own, a Radioddity GM-30 and DB20G do not seem to allow this and the seeming lack of documentation is perplexing. I have been advised that this is a specific radio issue and it is also a FCC requirement for gmrs radios... Another internet and word of mouth conundrum ie: pain. Thanks for any clarification, information and or documentation

 

BTW any thoughts on Wouxon KG805G radio's quality, durability and reception and transmissions. Hope that covers it all.....

Edited November 26, 2024 by Elbowmac
Additional info needed

[wayoverthere]

  On 11/26/2024 at 5:23 PM, Elbowmac said:

BTW any thoughts on Wouxon KG805G radio's quality, durability and reception and transmissions. Hope that covers it all.....

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I'll have to double check the software; with the 805g, the software is the barrier that keeps you in bounds for gmrs. If I remember right, it will let you enter whatever you want for receive frequecies, but transmit was limited to the gmrs simplex and repeater frequencies.

Quality wise, it's a definite step up from the average baofeng, and less susceptible to desense/interference in my experience. Also handled a few drops just fine. My only complaint is the battery drain when not in use, common with some other wouxun handhelds as well

Edited November 26, 2024 by wayoverthere
clarifying

[AdmiralCochrane]

  On 11/26/2024 at 10:28 PM, Socalgmrs said:

Loads of radios Atleast same quality for much less money. It’s just a radio like all other radios.  It will rx and tx exactly the same as a radio 1/5th the price 

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But it is more likely to apply more of its radiated power on receivable center frequency and less wasted on harmonics that no one hears.  Your money is not wasted.

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/26/2024 at 9:01 PM, wayoverthere said:

I'll have to double check the software; with the 805g, the software is the barrier that keeps you in bounds for gmrs. If I remember right, it will let you enter whatever you want for receive frequecies, but transmit was limited to the gmrs simplex and repeater frequencies.

Quality wise, it's a definite step up from the average baofeng, and less susceptible to desense/interference in my experience. Also handled a few drops just fine. My only complaint is the battery drain when not in use, common with some other wouxun handhelds as well

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It is then similar to the db20g in that it will allow like 500 channels, but can only transmit on gmrs preset channels. Want a quality ht that isn't dire in it's cost and will give good listening and talking.

Thanx

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/26/2024 at 5:59 PM, WSAM454 said:

If it is a GMRS only radio, and there is no way to "unlock" it ( look it up ) then it will only offer the 5MHz split, since that is what is used on the GMRS band.

If it can be unlocked, then you might be able to enter the needed offset, but make sure you would be welcomed on the repeater, since it does not sound like a typical GMRS repeater, and if it is, then it should be using the standard GMRS repeater offset.

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Learning that it was a gmrs repeater thing explained enough to me for now. Want to of course get me a technician's license, eventually..

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/26/2024 at 9:24 PM, MarkInTampa said:

The largest repeater in my area (462.575) has two receivers, primary on the standard +5 (467.575) and a secondary on 467.725. The repeater overlooks the port of Tampa and gets occasional interference on the primary input from ship traffic and they have shut it down. Unfortunately it confuses a lot of folks and a lot of radios (Midlands for example) don't support anything other than a +5MHz offset so they are unable to transmit to the repeater but receive it just fine. My Wouxun's (KG-1000 and KG-935) will allow for a different offset - as long as the TX offset is a GMRS frequency (including frequencies not assigned for repeater inputs like 467.6125) but a lot of radios don't.

If your radios have dual scan or priority watch, what you can try (as long as the TX frequency is a standard GMRS frequency) is setup TX on whatever you want and RX as a 2nd channel on the dual scan or your priority watch channel. 

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Will have to digest the procedure you have described, but I am not particularly concerned any longer. I have a lot to learn and I am doing it intermittently. Thanks for the response and idea!

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/26/2024 at 10:39 PM, AdmiralCochrane said:

But it is more likely to apply more of its radiated power on receivable center frequency and less wasted on harmonics that no one hears.  Your money is not wasted.

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Cool, thanks!

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/26/2024 at 6:17 PM, WRYS709 said:

Repost on another thread that is not "Sort by Votes" and I will be happy to respond...

If it is a ham radio repeater, post on that topic please.

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Hello WRYS709, I am finally understanding your post. I did not know that there is a Sort by posts type thread. I was wondering about the crazy answer structure I was receiving. How do I go about reposting and finding the options on type of posts?

[Lscott]

  On 11/26/2024 at 6:07 PM, Elbowmac said:

No I guess not...... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Unfortunately manufactures "assume" that GMRS repeaters are using the "usual" 5MHz so that gets baked in to the radio's programming software and or firmware. For the most part it works so it's a fair assumption and simplifies the radio programming. This seems to be the case with the GMRS specific radios being sold.

The options to work around that is to to use a radio that can be unlocked so arbitrary frequency splits can be programmed, or use a commercial grade radio. The later option typical requires the radio tech to program in two frequencies, a receive and a transmit, there is no entry for a frequency split, or offset. When I first got into using commercial grade radios years back, and coming from a Ham radio back ground where the radios had entries for the offset, it was a bit of a mental adjustment to get use to the idea. You do have to pay attention to which frequency goes into which column. It's easy to switch the two around and end up transmitting on the output frequency and receiving on the input frequency, oops.

This is one of my preferred analog only radios for GMRS.

https://forums.mygmrs.com/gallery/image/263-tk-3170jpg/?context=new

This is a sample of the programming for a Kenwood TK-3170, which is what I usually carry around for Ham UHF and GMRS use.

 

[Guest]

  On 11/26/2024 at 5:41 PM, Elbowmac said:

The frequency will tell you that it is a non gmrs repeater.  I don’t think any one has asked this simple question.  What are the frequencies listed?   

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/27/2024 at 2:28 PM, Socalgmrs said:

I’m on simplex and repeaters Atleast 12 hours every day 7 days a week. I talk on average 20 miles many times 50plus miles.   No one knows if I’m using a $20ht and a $150ht or a $5000ht.  You’ll learn kore as you actually use multiple radios over 30plus years.     They all tx and rx exactly the same.  The ONLY difference is battery life and I can upgrade any radios battery for small and light or big and heavy.  

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Howdy and what are some good sounding and quality radios that you have used that would be significantly cheaper than the Wouxon KG805G, if you don't mind? They are going for like $79 with a free antenna upgrade? Interested to know. Any particulars on why also, don't want to start a great controversy!!!!

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/27/2024 at 2:25 PM, SteveShannon said:

I agree with Gil (@WRUU653). Please don’t start a new thread because one person cannot adapt to the up/down voting. This is the technical forum. People have the ability to very easily choose “sort by date”. 
Unfortunately someone went through the responses here and downvoted almost every post, including your very reasonable questions.  That was petty and shows an utter lack of respect to those who honestly try to answer technical questions.

Back to your original question, although the typical GMRS repeater will use exactly 5.000 MHz as the offset, the regulations do not require it.  The regulations do require that transmitting to a repeater be done using one of the eight established 467 MHz main channels and that the repeater transmit on one of the 462 MHz main channels. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-95.1763

But choosing an offset that is different than 5.000 MHz will result in many (perhaps all) certified GMRS radios being unable to use your repeater.  All certified GMRS radios that I know of uses 5.000 MHz as the offset.  So that means that people will be forced to unlock ham radios or repurpose commercial radios in order to use your repeater transmit. Whether that’s a problem, only you can determine.  One way to get around that is to use a radio that can be programmed using Chirp and which supports non-standard offsets or separate receiver and transmit frequencies. The cheap Baofeng UV5R radios did this easily.  Many ham radios use “Automatic Repeater Shift” which assumes exactly 5.000 MHz offset for UHF frequencies. Commercial radios, found on the used market, like the ones @Lscott refers to would be absolutely excellent for this purpose.

Best wishes!

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Thanks sir. Getting to understand the possible ambiguity in wording and rules . I prefer to follow the rules as a good citizen or at least break as few as I can manage I personally found your explanation more comprehensive and understandable to me! Not to downplay other's information! In reference to the Voting type threads this is the first time I have encountered it and it takes a bit to follow the logic 0ld dogs, new tricks

[SteveShannon]

@Elbowmac - one thing that you can do with certified GMRS radios with dual tuners is program the primary tuner to transmit on the correct repeater input frequency and program the secondary tuner to receive only on the non-standard tuner.

Oops, I see that @MarkInTampa posted that same solution yesterday. Sorry.

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/27/2024 at 3:48 PM, SteveShannon said:

@Elbowmac - one thing that you can do with certified GMRS radios with dual tuners is program the primary tuner to transmit on the correct repeater input frequency and program the secondary tuner to receive only on the non-standard tuner.

 

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Believe that might have been suggested but out of my current league. Will keep it in mind as learn, fingers crossed.

[SteveShannon]

  On 11/27/2024 at 3:52 PM, Elbowmac said:

Believe that might have been suggested but out of my current league. Will keep it in mind as learn, fingers crossed.

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You’re right. @MarkInTampa nailed it yesterday.  I failed to see that.

I have the KG-805.  It’s an excellent radio. Unfortunately I don’t believe there’s any way to program it for a non-standard split. 
I also have a Baofeng UV5R.  Although the QC wasn’t nearly as good it works adequately. It will definitely transmit just as far.  It sounds okay, and it can be programmed with the split. But I bought it before they started locking them down.  I don’t know about the newer versions, but I suspect once they’re unlocked they’re fine.

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/27/2024 at 1:23 PM, Lscott said:

Unfortunately manufactures "assume" that GMRS repeaters are using the "usual" 5MHz so that gets baked in to the radio's programming software and or firmware. For the most part it works so it's a fair assumption and simplifies the radio programming. This seems to be the case with the GMRS specific radios being sold.

The options to work around that is to to use a radio that can be unlocked so arbitrary frequency splits can be programmed, or use a commercial grade radio. The later option typical requires the radio tech to program in two frequencies, a receive and a transmit, there is no entry for a frequency split, or offset. When I first got into using commercial grade radios years back, and coming from a Ham radio back ground where the radios had entries for the offset, it was a bit of a mental adjustment to get use to the idea. You do have to pay attention to which frequency goes into which column. It's easy to switch the two around and end up transmitting on the output frequency and receiving on the input frequency, oops.

This is one of my preferred analog only radios for GMRS.

https://forums.mygmrs.com/gallery/image/263-tk-3170jpg/?context=new

This is a sample of the programming for a Kenwood TK-3170, which is what I usually carry around for Ham UHF and GMRS use.

 

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Thanks for your time and information! I have barely gotten past the basic setting channels and repeaters that don't require possibly half of the settings listed in my radios. Just found out about the tot use, reason and setting. My GM-30 has an offset setting, that is disabled. The manufacturer hasn't been able to provide any documentation on the function page and the channels have been hit and miss. Figured out what DIY channels mean.... 500 channels,,,,, sure!

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/27/2024 at 3:57 PM, SteveShannon said:

You’re right. @MarkInTampa nailed it yesterday.  I failed to see that.

I have the KG-805.  It’s an excellent radio. Unfortunately I don’t believe there’s any way to program it for a non-standard split. 
I also have a Baofeng UV5R.  Although the QC wasn’t nearly as good it works adequately. It will definitely transmit just as far.  It sounds okay, and it can be programmed with the split. But I bought it before they started locking them down.  I don’t know about the newer versions, but I suspect once they’re unlocked they’re fine.

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I purchased the GT-5R Pro as it was FCC certified (good citizen idea). Don't know much about dual band. I have been advised that the 805g doesn't use diy channels and thus can be programmed for different frequencies with different tones for the varied repeaters on all available channels/memory settings?! I don't require the non-conventional offset as of now. My choices are basically gut reactions to the concepts I've gleaned such as superiority of superheterodyne reception. Again don't need to spark a debate. Beauty of advertising and brand name/ term recognition!!

[SteveShannon]

  On 11/27/2024 at 4:14 PM, Elbowmac said:

I purchased the GT-5R Pro as it was FCC certified (good citizen idea). Don't know much about dual band. I have been advised that the 805g doesn't use diy channels and thus can be programmed for different frequencies with different tones for the varied repeaters on all available channels/memory settings?! I don't require the non-conventional offset as of now. My choices are basically gut reactions to the concepts I've gleaned such as superiority of superheterodyne reception. Again don't need to spark a debate. Beauty of advertising and brand name/ term recognition!!

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As long as you don’t need the non conventional offset the 805 should be excellent.  You can program it with up to 128 custom channels. One nice thing is that the squelch is much better out of the box than the Baofeng, but there is a way to tweak the squelch for the Baofeng. I have a GT5R also, but it’s strictly a ham radio, not GMRS.

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/27/2024 at 4:23 PM, SteveShannon said:

As long as you don’t need the non conventional offset the 805 should be excellent.  You can program it with up to 128 custom channels. One nice thing is that the squelch is much better out of the box than the Baofeng, but there is a way to tweak the squelch for the Baofeng. I have a GT5R also, but it’s strictly a ham radio, not GMRS.

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Is it true that it requires the proprietary programming cable to set the bcl and possibly other settings?

[SteveShannon]

  On 11/27/2024 at 4:25 PM, Elbowmac said:

Is it true that it requires the proprietary programming cable to set the bcl and possibly other settings?

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The 805?  It uses the same cable as the Baofeng radios.  You probably already have one, but if not it doesn’t hurt to get the Wouxun cable. Busy Channel Lockout can only be set from the software.

Heres a video on programming it:

 

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/27/2024 at 11:53 AM, WRUU653 said:

You posted in the correct area. Some don’t like the voting system but as it was a technical question and the voting system is designed to allow the most relevant answers to move to the top. It is unreasonable to expect you to make a double post just for one person’s preferences. If you had made a second post someone would give you a hard time for that. Don’t worry about your post you are doing fine. I say all this as someone that prefers to read post in order by date but I’m not going to give the poster a hard time about it.

Back to the original subject. If you tell us what the TX and RX frequencies are a determination of whether this is a GMRS repeater with an unconventional offset or if perhaps it’s an amateur band repeater could be made. Though it sounds like might have already determined that. 

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Thanks and I don't believe I will use this technique again!!

[WRUU653]

  On 11/27/2024 at 4:33 PM, Elbowmac said:

Thanks and I don't believe I will use this technique again!!

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It’s no problem if you do.
If someone has a problem with the way the site behaves they should take it up with the owner not the people who use it. 

[SteveShannon]

  On 11/27/2024 at 4:33 PM, Elbowmac said:

Thanks and I don't believe I will use this technique again!!

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It really wasn’t a technique that you could choose.  If you post in the technical discussion forum the sort by votes is the default.  Unfortunately choosing sort by date isn’t persistent once a person chooses it.  I do agree with 709 that it’s a pain in the ass, but like Gil (@WRUU653) I can live with it.

[Elbowmac]

  On 11/27/2024 at 4:32 PM, SteveShannon said:

The 805?  It uses the same cable as the Baofeng radios.  You probably already have one, but if not it doesn’t hurt to get the Wouxun cable.

Heres a video on programming it:

 

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Appreciated, I can imply some of the settings on my radios from this as well as see how this is done on a perspective purchase!

[WRUU653]

  On 11/28/2024 at 12:38 AM, WRYS709 said:

No wonder, someone on the GMRS SubReddit advises us to "Ignore" you!

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[WRUU653]

  On 11/28/2024 at 12:50 AM, WRYS709 said:

And yet, after @Elbowmacread my suggestion to him as a newbie, his subsequent questions are posted as I suggested.

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so your point is you are going to whine about every post with a voting system until you get everyone on board with your wishes? Okay I guess that's one approach. Why not create the post I suggested and get a consensus? I'll even vote on the poll for the change you are seeking.