Hustler vs. Laird Base Antenna

[WRUE951]

Late last summer a bird (black raven) out of all things stuck my base Hustler G6-450-3 antenna causing it to buckle at the base. I had to replace it..The Hustler performed great, I talked 80+ miles  on a regular bases. When i got it down i noticed that the fiberglass antenna radome was very very brittle, i could nearly crush it by pressing with my fingers..  No way was i gong to replace the antenna with another Hustler..  So i decided to go with a Laird FG-4605 antenna..   Both antennas had good SWR's  1:2-1:35 on my repeater Ch (18)..  After waiting nearly 3 months for the backordered Laird, i got her up.. And i'm not happy with the Laird performance..  On the Hustler i could easily talk with a friend at his cabin near Long Pine,  (70 mile hop).   The Laird won't make the trip, not even static, it just won't do it..  I messed with turning the antenna at at several 15 degrees turns but no go..  I have not problems talking out around 40 miles but its not cutting it on the long haul..   As much as i don't want to go back to the Hustler because of the quality and cost factor,,  i'm on the fence and about ready to just to do it..  Any thoughts on this Laird Antenna???  there is not much i can do to get it to work any better. It's sitting 60 feet above ground, perhaps this antenna needs more height, which isn't going to happen..    

[SteveShannon]

33 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

Late last summer a bird (black raven) out of all things stuck my base Hustler G6-450-3 antenna causing it to buckle at the base. I had to replace it..The Hustler performed great, I talked 80+ miles  on a regular bases. When i got it down i noticed that the fiberglass antenna radome was very very brittle, i could nearly crush it by pressing with my fingers..  No way was i gong to replace the antenna with another Hustler..  So i decided to go with a Laird FG-4605 antenna..   Both antennas had good SWR's  1:2-1:35 on my repeater Ch (18)..  After waiting nearly 3 months for the backordered Laird, i got her up.. And i'm not happy with the Laird performance..  On the Hustler i could easily talk with a friend at his cabin near Long Pine,  (70 mile hop).   The Laird won't make the trip, not even static, it just won't do it..  I messed with turning the antenna at at several 15 degrees turns but no go..  I have not problems talking out around 40 miles but its not cutting it on the long haul..   As much as i don't want to go back to the Hustler because of the quality and cost factor,,  i'm on the fence and about ready to just to do it..  Any thoughts on this Laird Antenna???  there is not much i can do to get it to work any better. It's sitting 60 feet above ground, perhaps this antenna needs more height, which isn't going to happen..    

I don’t know what’s wrong with the laird, but what about rebuilding the Hustler?

Different epoxy resins are more or less susceptible to deteriorating due to sunlight.  I lost a rocket out in the hills for a two or three years.  When I found it the epoxy on the body tube (very similar to a radome) was fuzzy.  The epoxy binding the outermost fiberglass surface together was gone, leaving just the fiberglass fibers sticking out, but deeper into the structure the epoxy was still intact.  I’ve been tempted to simply slather it in a good quality epoxy and vacuum bag it to restore the structure.

But the fins and the epoxy used to adhere them to the body tube showed no signs of deterioration, so it seems obvious to me that the choice of epoxy resin is extremely important.  The epoxy I used to attach the fins to the rocket would have been Aeropoxy laminating epoxy which is available from several sources.
This was all a long winded post to suggesting that you replace the radome of the original Hustler antenna with a G10 or FR4 tube.  Further, you may wish to paint or perhaps gel coat the radome after rebuilding it, but I don’t know what effect that might have on RF.

[WRUE951]

42 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

I don’t know what’s wrong with the laird, but what about rebuilding the Hustler?

After i ordered the Laird i did dissect the Hustler, it was a major PITA to get the fiber glass radome removed especialy at the base.  My brother is a retired Hardware store manager and found me a piece of Hot Water PVC pipe, which is a thin wall strong PVC type pipe.  Between making a base section with a transistion to the new PVC pipe  on my 3D printer, i did manage to rebuild that Huster (see pic) to better than new with outstanding SWR..   But guess what, i gave it to my brother and he loves it ..  The fiberglass on the original Hustler deteriorated over time , the resin in the fiberglass must of broke down because there was no adhesion within the fiberglass, it was very brittle.   The Hustler is a ground plane antenna, the Laird is not..  The take of angle on the Laird is defiantly different and weird..  After Christmas i'll end up shelling out over $400 for a new Hustler.  I just hope there was a defect in the radome and i dont have that haunting me.   

 

[SteveShannon]

2 hours ago, WRUE951 said:

 

I’d be curious to see what effect using pvc rather than fiberglass had on SWR.  I know that placing the radiator inside of different materials can change the velocity factor, thus changing the wavelength of the antenna, but I don’t know what the difference will be between pvc and fiberglass.

Also, unless you used UV resistant pvc, there’s a probability that the pvc radome will suffer solar embrittlement.  UV resistant pvc is used for non-metallic electrical conduit.

[WRUE951]

5 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

I’d be curious to see what effect using pvc rather than fiberglass had on SWR.  I’ve know that placing the radiator inside of different materials can change the velocity factor, thus changing the wavelength of the antenna, but I don’t know what’s wrong the difference will be between pvc and fiberglass.

Also, unless you used UV resistant pvc, there’s a probability that the pvc radome will suffer solar embrittlement.  UV resistant pvc is used for non-metallic electrical conduit.

the SWR did go up about .5-.8  to 1:35-2:2 across the entire GMRS Band..  You are right about the UV issues with the white PVC pipe..  Not sure if the hot water pipe is PVC though.  PVC glue did stick, but not like it does with normal PVC pipe..  The Hot Water pipe is blue in the inside and white on the outside, i'm not sure what material it is, but it is very thin..   I also painted to help with the UV..   BTW, I did call Hustler telling them i removed the old radome and asking if i could purchase a replacement from them..  She just chuckled and said their antennas are not serviceable..    My brother is using the antenna for his base GMRS radio and its working great..  We'll see how long that hot water pipe last, we defiantly get the hot summers to beat it up..  

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WRUE951 said:

the SWR did go up about .5-.8  to 1:35-2:2 across the entire GMRS Band..  You are right about the UV issues with the white PVC pipe..  Not sure if the hot water pipe is PVC though.  PVC glue did stick, but not like it does with normal PVC pipe..  The Hot Water pipe is blue in the inside and white on the outside, i'm not sure what material it is, but it is very thin..   I also painted to help with the UV..   BTW, I did call Hustler telling them i removed the old radome and asking if i could purchase a replacement from them..  She just chuckled and said their antennas are not serviceable..    My brother is using the antenna for his base GMRS radio and its working great..  We'll see how long that hot water pipe last, we defiantly get the hot summers to beat it up..  

sounds like it might be coextruded, like this: https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=74636

If so, It is engineered to be UV resistant.

I have removed metal parts from broken fiberglass tubing by heating the metal with either a high temperature heat gun or even a torch until the epoxy fails.  It’s pretty noticeable when it fails because it gives off a puff of smoke. 
Anyway, it sounds like you did a good job of salvaging that Hustler, despite their lack of help!

[gortex2]

Just as reference the Laird and the Hustler are not identical. The Laird is a 5db antenna and the Huslter is listed as 6db. Granted 1db should not be the deciding factor but coupld possibly be enough. Feedline could also change the antenna performance. Granted your in CA where everyone talks way more miles than you will on the east coast but I use the antenna for contorl points and never had an issue hitting our repeaters or simplex. I also use the Laird unity gain for control stations as well but those are intended to talk to the repeater mostly. 

As for the PVC part of the rebuild. I know the Ed Fong antenna lists a certain PVC thats supposed to be better for antenna than the standard PVC thicker material. I've only use a single Ed fong antenna and promply tossed it in a can after so dont know what each PVC pipe difference is other than thickness. I have fixed fiberglass radomes on antennas in the past if they are structurally OK. Not sure how bad the one on your huster was but may be worth trying. Most anything fiberglass does take a beating from the sun. I have 30 year old station masters in use still. A few I have taken down to move and they were all fiberglass hairs and no gell coat left. I wrapped them all in a thin layer of fiberglass matt with resin and put back up after drying. None changed SWR or any other sweep data. Personally I prefere folded dipoles for durability but the fiberglass stick is a good option some areas. 

 

[WRUE951]

31 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

Just as reference the Laird and the Hustler are not identical. The Laird is a 5db antenna and the Huslter is listed as 6db. Granted 1db should not be the deciding factor but coupld possibly be enough. Feedline could also change the antenna performance. Granted your in CA where everyone talks way more miles than you will on the east coast but I use the antenna for contorl points and never had an issue hitting our repeaters or simplex. I also use the Laird unity gain for control stations as well but those are intended to talk to the repeater mostly. 

As for the PVC part of the rebuild. I know the Ed Fong antenna lists a certain PVC thats supposed to be better for antenna than the standard PVC thicker material. I've only use a single Ed fong antenna and promply tossed it in a can after so dont know what each PVC pipe difference is other than thickness. I have fixed fiberglass radomes on antennas in the past if they are structurally OK. Not sure how bad the one on your huster was but may be worth trying. Most anything fiberglass does take a beating from the sun. I have 30 year old station masters in use still. A few I have taken down to move and they were all fiberglass hairs and no gell coat left. I wrapped them all in a thin layer of fiberglass matt with resin and put back up after drying. None changed SWR or any other sweep data. Personally I prefere folded dipoles for durability but the fiberglass stick is a good option some areas. 

 

My Hustler used ground radials where the Laird does not.  I'm far from being an antenna expert but I'm thinking this may be the difference..  BTW,  i actually have the 7DB version of the Laird.  I just know the stations further out are a no go where the Hustler had no problems..  I think the lobes are a bit sharper and work at a different elevations with the Laird vs. Hustler..   

Ed Fong's Antenna uses schedule 20 PVC pipe,  (thin wall) and you can't find this stuff anywhere, hardware stores no longer sell it.  The Hot water plastic pipe i used is actually thinner and stronger than sch. 20 PVC.  I believe Steve Shannon found the material used in this pipe (above)..  It will be interesting to see how this material will hold up in the outside environment - time will tell.   

A bird smacked into the Hustler antenna and the material was so weathered (see pic) the antenna just buckled at the impact.. The antenna was only two years old, i cant imagine the weather getting to it so quickly, maybe just a bad batch of resin????..   At first, i didn't know what caused the antenna to buckle but then found several large black bird feathers nearby that could only come from these large black ravens that fly around here.  There would have been no way of salvaging the old radome without shorting by several inches and now as an afterthought,  I probably could have made an extension on the 3D Printer..  Too late now, i have already hacked up the old radom.   

[SteveShannon]

14 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

My Hustler used ground radials where the Laird does not.  I'm far from being an antenna expert but I'm thinking this may be the difference..  BTW,  i actually have the 7DB version of the Laird.  I just know the stations further out are a no go where the Hustler had no problems..  I think the lobes are a bit sharper and work at a different elevations with the Laird vs. Hustler..   

Ed Fong's Antenna uses schedule 20 PVC pipe,  (thin wall) and you can't find this stuff anywhere, hardware stores no longer sell it.  The Hot water plastic pipe i used is actually thinner and stronger than sch. 20 PVC.  I believe Steve Shannon found the material used in this pipe (above)..  It will be interesting to see how this material will hold up in the outside environment - time will tell.   

A bird smacked into the Hustler antenna and the material was so weathered (see pic) the antenna just buckled at the impact.. The antenna was only two years old, i cant imagine the weather getting to it so quickly, maybe just a bad batch of resin????..   At first, i didn't know what caused the antenna to buckle but then found several large black bird feathers nearby that could only come from these large black ravens that fly around here.  There would have been no way of salvaging the old radome without shorting by several inches and now as an afterthought,  I probably could have made an extension on the 3D Printer..  Too late now, i have already hacked up the old radom.   

If you get the antenna back and want to replace the PVC with fiberglass, I think i can help you find some strong fiberglass tubes. 
But it sounds like you have it working well. I wouldn’t mess with it unless you have to. 

[WRUU653]

You may find the sch 20 at an electrical wholesale supply, you may have to buy a 20’ length.

[WRUE951]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

If you get the antenna back and want to replace the PVC with fiberglass, I think i can help you find some strong fiberglass tubes. 
But it sounds like you have it working well. I wouldn’t mess with it unless you have to. 

I appreciate the offer but we already have that mounted 50' up..  I found some fiberglass tubes on ebay they are real antenna raydome tubes but seller required a large qty purchase..  Also found some on a google search with the same deal.  Large qty..  Curious where you are finding it?   

[SteveShannon]

5 hours ago, WRUE951 said:

I appreciate the offer but we already have that mounted 50' up..  I found some fiberglass tubes on ebay they are real antenna raydome tubes but seller required a large qty purchase..  Also found some on a google search with the same deal.  Large qty..  Curious where you are finding it?   

I know people who make their own tubes (it’s not that difficult). I even know some people who have purchased tow winding machines for making them. 

[WRVR303]

Here's a source for fiberglass antenna components:

Max-Gain  https://mgs4u.com/

[tcp2525]

On 12/19/2024 at 12:07 PM, WRUE951 said:

the SWR did go up about .5-.8  to 1:35-2:2 across the entire GMRS Band..  You are right about the UV issues with the white PVC pipe..  Not sure if the hot water pipe is PVC though.  PVC glue did stick, but not like it does with normal PVC pipe..  The Hot Water pipe is blue in the inside and white on the outside, i'm not sure what material it is, but it is very thin..   I also painted to help with the UV..   BTW, I did call Hustler telling them i removed the old radome and asking if i could purchase a replacement from them..  She just chuckled and said their antennas are not serviceable..    My brother is using the antenna for his base GMRS radio and its working great..  We'll see how long that hot water pipe last, we defiantly get the hot summers to beat it up..  

I'm using schedule 80 PVC (gray) for a 70cm and a 1296 coax collinear that have been on the tower for over 5 years without issue or discoloration. I didn't notice any changes in resonance when I put the antenna inside the PVC. When I make an antenna I secure it to the outside of the radome and tune.

[WRUE951]

12 hours ago, tcp2525 said:

I'm using schedule 80 PVC (gray) for a 70cm and a 1296 coax collinear that have been on the tower for over 5 years without issue or discoloration. I didn't notice any changes in resonance when I put the antenna inside the PVC. When I make an antenna I secure it to the outside of the radome and tune.

I log all my antenna test so i had a reference to look at when i got the Hustler rebuilt with the Hot Water pipe..   Yes the SWR did go up sligthly after the rebuild.  Now, i don't know if that was due to the different radome material or stress to the internal antenna from the bird strike which is possible.   Looking back i wish i would have done a SWR test on the antenna without the radome for that reference.. I've always heard that different radome materials changes the velocity factor.. I think this would be worth researching,, It would be nice to see actual data measurments showing these results.. If i find anything, i'll repost here..  

As far as PVC vs white and gray holding up under UV. White PVC will self destruct pretty fast under UV exposure.  I've seen that happen.  Gray PVC will hold up but it will discolor.  I know this from a short section where the Fiber Internet installer placed on my outside wall two years ago.  There is a section where the sun beets down and you can defiantly see the discoloration but it's not brittle, it's holding strong..    I think over time, any material will evently destruct from EV rays..   

[WRUE951]

On 12/21/2024 at 11:55 AM, WRVR303 said:

Here's a source for fiberglass antenna components:

Max-Gain  https://mgs4u.com/

Good Find..  

[tcp2525]

4 hours ago, WRUE951 said:

I log all my antenna test so i had a reference to look at when i got the Hustler rebuilt with the Hot Water pipe..   Yes the SWR did go up sligthly after the rebuild.  Now, i don't know if that was due to the different radome material or stress to the internal antenna from the bird strike which is possible.   Looking back i wish i would have done a SWR test on the antenna without the radome for that reference.. I've always heard that different radome materials changes the velocity factor.. I think this would be worth researching,, It would be nice to see actual data measurments showing these results.. If i find anything, i'll repost here..  

As far as PVC vs white and gray holding up under UV. White PVC will self destruct pretty fast under UV exposure.  I've seen that happen.  Gray PVC will hold up but it will discolor.  I know this from a short section where the Fiber Internet installer placed on my outside wall two years ago.  There is a section where the sun beets down and you can defiantly see the discoloration but it's not brittle, it's holding strong..    I think over time, any material will evently destruct from EV rays..   

I suspect the radome material should not affect velocity factor as it's determined by the dielectric material in the coax if you're building a collinier. When I rebuild StationMasters I always tape it to the outside of the radome at intervals that keep it straight as possible. Antenna is mounted vertical on my test mast before measuring. If I have to make adjustments, I have to unmount it from the mast.

As for the PVC getting discolored from UV, it depends. I have some Carlon PVC fittings that have been exposed to weather for 20+ years and haven't been affected. Compare that to some of the fittings I got from Home Depot that look like crap. It seems all PVC isn't created equal. One day I will have to try some schedule 80 CPVC.

[SteveShannon]

Here’s a quote from a post on RadioReference:

I once did an experiment with a simple dipole on VHF. The dipole was made with #8 solid wire, and it's resonant frequency was measured. It was then encased in PVC and the resonant frequency was remeasured, and found to have moved over a MHz. That was at VHF. I expect the effect at 2.4 GHz would be worse.

https://forums.radioreference.com/threads/protecting-yagi-with-pvc-or-other-material.298291/#:~:text=The issue is nopt necessarily,it'll work just fine.

[tcp2525]

46 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Here’s a quote from a post on RadioReference:

I once did an experiment with a simple dipole on VHF. The dipole was made with #8 solid wire, and it's resonant frequency was measured. It was then encased in PVC and the resonant frequency was remeasured, and found to have moved over a MHz. That was at VHF. I expect the effect at 2.4 GHz would be worse.

https://forums.radioreference.com/threads/protecting-yagi-with-pvc-or-other-material.298291/#:~:text=The issue is nopt necessarily,it'll work just fine.

Good points mentioned in that forum. I suspect the builder of the yagi suffered inconsistencies more from supporting the dipole in open air than he would from the PVC. I admit any material used for a radome can have impurities that can reflect RF back to the native antenna. We need pictures to see exactly what he was doing. Not enough info.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, tcp2525 said:

Good points mentioned in that forum. I suspect the builder of the yagi suffered inconsistencies more from supporting the dipole in open air than he would from the PVC. I admit any material used for a radome can have impurities that can reflect RF back to the native antenna. We need pictures to see exactly what he was doing. Not enough info.

I don’t think that it’s as simple as that. According to this document PVC is more polarizable in the presence of RF and has a higher dielectric constant than other plastics and composite materials, especially at higher frequencies.  This document discusses the materials which are more suitable for use as radioed:

https://www.curbellplastics.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Plastics-for-High-Performance-Radomes-White-Paper.pdf
 

[tcp2525]

13 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

I don’t think that it’s as simple as that. According to this document PVC is more polarizable in the presence of RF and has a higher dielectric constant than other plastics and composite materials, especially at higher frequencies.  This document discusses the materials which are more suitable for use as radioed:

https://www.curbellplastics.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Plastics-for-High-Performance-Radomes-White-Paper.pdf
 

Thanks for the article, it's definitely an eye opener in some of the properties I took into consideration in a highly unscientific way. As an experimenter and hobbyist when it comes to building antennas, the two features I naturally and instinctively took into consideration is reflection and absorption of RF. I definitely want to get more in-depth in Ashby. My logic for using PVC is it is readily available, easy to work with and inexpensive. The real question from an RF perspective, does it have a negative impact on performance operating on the frequencies we use? I really haven't found any, especially measurable ones. Granted, there are better materials for structural and longevity, but will they perform any better electrically? Maybe, maybe not. I guess what I'm trying to say is any materials we have access to as hobbyists is going to have its positives and negatives that we have take into consideration for ourselves if the material is usable. From an academic and mission critical perspective where costs and availability are pretty much not a major issue all these properties must be considered.