Something very strange is happening

[SteveShannon]

5 minutes ago, Lscott said:

On a GMRS repeater frequency? Well see how good a 50 watt radio does compared to a low power FRS signal. I'm sure when the new parents are getting quizzed on what the kids name is on the receiver end, reminding them it's due for a diaper change every 15 minutes and asking if they can repeat their credit card number with the pin since you missed it the last time they will likely turn the D**mn thing off and get rid of it. Nobody wants something in their house that lets the whole neighborhood spy on them.

From time to time this kind of crap gets imported and missed by the FCC. I remember when there was a rash of "high power" cordless phones showing up on the Ham 2 meter band. You could hear the things from several miles away.

Calling it a “GMRS repeater frequency” implies more than actually exists. 22 isn’t dedicated to repeaters.  It’s available for FRS simplex, GMRS simplex, and as the output of a GMRS repeater. It might suck, but legal FRS users have as much right to use it as GMRS users.

But the actions you describe are excellent reasons why people shouldn’t use wireless intercoms or baby monitors, regardless of the frequency.

[intermod]

SteveSHannon is correct.    All of them were approved under FRS rules.  However, there is no restriction on "continuous carrier" modes under the 95.3 (general) area or the FRS rules.   This is a problem that needs resolution.   This can be resolved with one sentance in the rules. 

We ordered several models of these to test a few years ago (thankfully Amazon has a Free Return policy...).  At the time, we were searching for models operating on 467 MHz GMRS repeater uplink channels.  There were some models that did this (we never found the model).  

However, their operation on 462.725 MHz regularly interfere with reception of licensed GMRS direct and repeater communications.   They seem to propgage well, assuming they comply with the 2-watt requirement.

I am going to look for a rule that restricts one-way communication in FRS. 

 

[Lscott]

2 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Calling it a “GMRS repeater frequency” implies more than actually exists. 22 isn’t dedicated to repeaters.  

It's a repeater output frequency. Yes you do have to share the spectrum, however having a 24/7 signal doesn't qualify as "sharing" the frequency.

[WSEM262]

I was recently on amazon looking at wireless home intercom systems. After finding one that looked viable...  I was curious what frequencies it used.

Lo and behold...  it ran on GMRS frequencies... and was obviously chinese-made.

That pi$$ed me off enough to not buy it.

[intermod]

Agree.

Another question:  As GMRS licnesees, are we obligated to accept interference by the rules, regardless of the shared channel environment?  I believe that FRS users are obligated to not cause IX, and must accept IX.  

[Lscott]

2 minutes ago, WSEM262 said:

I was recently on amazon looking at wireless home intercom systems. After finding one that looked viable...  I was curious what frequencies it used.

Lo and behold...  it ran on GMRS frequencies... and was obviously chinese-made.

That pi$$ed me off enough to not buy it.

Somebody else likely did, and your luck would be they live just down the street from you.

[SteveShannon]

6 minutes ago, Lscott said:

It's a repeater output frequency. Yes you do have to share the spectrum, however having a 24/7 signal doesn't qualify as "sharing" the frequency.

I agree and both broadcasting and one way communications could be cause for citations, but it wasn’t always 24/7 according to his description.  It appeared once for what sounded like a period of days (that would be 24/7 at the time) then reappeared again a few weeks later.

This is a clear case of parents being ignorant about the technology they’re using.  But using GMRS frequencies, regardless of how important a person might think his communications are, includes sharing with ignorant people. I like @WRUE951’s suggestion to educate the parents, but if it’s kids with a set of FRS walkie talkies using VOX, there’s not much that can be done legally.

[Lscott]

12 minutes ago, intermod said:

SteveSHannon is correct.    All of them were approved under FRS rules.  However, there is no restriction on "continuous carrier" modes under the 95.3 (general) area or the FRS rules.   This is a problem that needs resolution.   This can be resolved with one sentance in the rules. 

We ordered several models of these to test a few years ago (thankfully Amazon has a Free Return policy...).  At the time, we were searching for models operating on 467 MHz GMRS repeater uplink channels.  There were some models that did this (we never found the model).  

However, their operation on 462.725 MHz regularly interfere with reception of licensed GMRS direct and repeater communications.   They seem to propgage well, assuming they comply with the 2-watt requirement.

I am going to look for a rule that restricts one-way communication in FRS. 

 

However FRS is an UNLICENSED service which would be causing interference to a LICENSED service in this case GMRS. I would hope the FCC realizes GMRS users paid for the use of the spectrum and should have some reasonable protection from an UNLICENSED service interference.

[OffRoaderX]

20 minutes ago, Lscott said:

I would hope the FCC realizes GMRS users paid for the use of the spectrum and should have some reasonable protection from an UNLICENSED service interference.

Haha! That's funny.

[SteveShannon]

32 minutes ago, Lscott said:

However FRS is an UNLICENSED service which would be causing interference to a LICENSED service in this case GMRS. I would hope the FCC realizes GMRS users paid for the use of the spectrum and should have some reasonable protection from an UNLICENSED service interference.

You’re joking, right?

[SteveShannon]

51 minutes ago, intermod said:

SteveSHannon is correct.    All of them were approved under FRS rules.  However, there is no restriction on "continuous carrier" modes under the 95.3 (general) area or the FRS rules.   This is a problem that needs resolution.   This can be resolved with one sentance in the rules. 

We ordered several models of these to test a few years ago (thankfully Amazon has a Free Return policy...).  At the time, we were searching for models operating on 467 MHz GMRS repeater uplink channels.  There were some models that did this (we never found the model).  

However, their operation on 462.725 MHz regularly interfere with reception of licensed GMRS direct and repeater communications.   They seem to propgage well, assuming they comply with the 2-watt requirement.

I am going to look for a rule that restricts one-way communication in FRS. 

 

95.531(b)

One-way communications. FRS units may be used for one-way communications that are emergency messages, traveler assistance communications, voice pages or brief equipment tests.

 

§ 95.533 Prohibited FRS uses.

FRS units must not be used for one-way communications other than those listed in § 95.531(b). Initial transmissions to establish two-way communications and data transmissions listed in § 95.531(a) are not considered to be one-way communications for the purposes of this section.

 

 

[Lscott]

31 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

You’re joking, right?

Nope. Otherwise why bother with getting a license, much less having to pay a fee for it too.

[LeoG]

I sort of agree.  Especially from baby monitors.

[kirk5056]

33 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Nope. Otherwise why bother with getting a license, much less having to pay a fee for it too.

The license gets you more allowable TX power, being able to improve antennas and use repeaters.

It is ironic that people that come to GMRS/FRS are surprised to find it used by families.  The "F" in FRS actually means "FAMILY" and FCC rules for GMRS/FRS encourages family use.  It even makes YOUR license cover almost all of YOUR family.

[SteveShannon]

50 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Nope. Otherwise why bother with getting a license, much less having to pay a fee for it too.

Nothing about the general personal radio services regulations nor those of part B (FRS) or part E (GMRS) support the position that a licensed user has a greater right to the 22 shared channels. 

[quarterwave]

1. A tip to find the signal with limited equipment - take the antenna off your radio once you are getting a good signal. You are effectively dumbing down your receiver, and you can gain resolution in finding the source. 

2. I have heard these "intercoms" before. In the city near where I live, a guy had one on VOX and sitting near his scanner. So he was rebroadcasting all the local scanner traffic on a GMRS channel. It was an "accident" I'm sure....  I had a BC780XLT in my work truck and it would lock up on his channel all the time. 

Him arguing with grandma was a bonus we all got to hear. 

Like most annoyances in this category, they eventually burn out or self right. 

[Lscott]

36 minutes ago, kirk5056 said:

The license gets you more allowable TX power, being able to improve antennas and use repeaters.

The FCC can just dispense with the license like they did years ago for CB 11M and just let people do whatever they want. The FCC screwed up when they allowed the sale of combo FRS/GMRS radios while requiring people to get a license to use the then at the time GMRS only channels. Almost everyone ignored that requirement so the FCC just changed the rules and gave FRS access to the GMRS channels with out the license requirement. As a reference point Australia has a UHF 80 channel license free CB radio service WITH repeater access. So it can be done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHF_CB

[kirk5056]

3 hours ago, Lscott said:

The FCC can just dispense with the license like they did years ago for CB 11M and just let people do whatever they want. The FCC screwed up when they allowed the sale of combo FRS/GMRS radios while requiring people to get a license to use the then at the time GMRS only channels. Almost everyone ignored that requirement so the FCC just changed the rules and gave FRS access to the GMRS channels with out the license requirement. As a reference point Australia has a UHF 80 channel license free CB radio service WITH repeater access. So it can be done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHF_CB

OR--anyone upset by family or other "unimportant" radio traffic can find a radio service that only licenses mature acting, grown ups.  

We have 30 small, insignificant frequencies in the vast radio spectrum, maybe there are other frequencies that more meet your needs.

We should accept the rules of the radio service we are using.

Edited January 7 by kirk5056
clarification

[Lscott]

5 hours ago, kirk5056 said:

We have 30 small, insignificant frequencies

Well when they get saturated with baby monitors, wireless intercoms etc. those radios you spent a good chunk of money on you’ll regret the purchase.

[GrouserPad]

I had something similar happen recently I just received my GMRS license and scanning the band and getting to learn my radios. I kept coming to a frequency that was obviously a VOX triggered transmitter being used as a baby monitor. I’m not sure if people are using FRS radios to do this or not, but that’s where my mind went at first not knowing a whole lot about the imported Frequencies that are being used by Chinese model monitors.  This went on for three or four evenings when I would scan the channels, and then on the same channel, I started hearing children talking, which kind of confirmed my thought of it being an FRS radio as they were using it for two a communication around their house from the sounds of it . Seems uncool  to run an FRS radio as a baby monitor. That’s just my opinion. And another night I heard a group of children somehow transmitting from a repeater for a few hours. Couldn’t have been over 5 or 6 years old. Curious how a cheap frs children’s talkie could make it onto a toned repeater so effectively. 

[SteveShannon]

7 minutes ago, GrouserPad said:

I had something similar happen recently I just received my GMRS license and scanning the band and getting to learn my radios. I kept coming to a frequency that was obviously a VOX triggered transmitter being used as a baby monitor. I’m not sure if people are using FRS radios to do this or not, but that’s where my mind went at first not knowing a whole lot about the imported Frequencies that are being used by Chinese model monitors.  This went on for three or four evenings when I would scan the channels, and then on the same channel, I started hearing children talking, which kind of confirmed my thought of it being an FRS radio as they were using it for two a communication around their house from the sounds of it . Seems uncool  to run an FRS radio as a baby monitor. That’s just my opinion. And another night I heard a group of children somehow transmitting from a repeater for a few hours. Couldn’t have been over 5 or 6 years old. Curious how a cheap frs children’s talkie could make it onto a toned repeater so effectively. 

A certified FRS radio shouldn’t be able to transmit on the repeater input frequencies.  But those kids (and their folks) could have been using GMRS radios.  

[WRYZ926]

Plus you will hear people on the repeater's output frequency when they are talking on the corresponding simplex channel. Now if you have receive tones set then you should not hear anyone talking that does not have the same tone set.

I will give a perfect example. Our repeater using the repeater channel 17 so the repeater input is 467.600 and the repeater output is 462.600. We have both TX and RX tones set on the repeater. The simplex channel 17 is also 462.600. A group of us were traveling in separate vehicles when one guy asked if the rest of us were hearing the kids on the repeater. The guy hearing the kids did not have the RX tone set on his radio. The kids were on simplex channel 17 and the reason he was hearing them and the rest of us weren't was because he did not have his RX tone turned on.

[Lscott]

16 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

Plus you will hear people on the repeater's output frequency when they are talking on the corresponding simplex channel. Now if you have receive tones set then you should not hear anyone talking that does not have the same tone set.

I will give a perfect example. Our repeater using the repeater channel 17 so the repeater input is 467.600 and the repeater output is 462.600. We have both TX and RX tones set on the repeater. The simplex channel 17 is also 462.600. A group of us were traveling in separate vehicles when one guy asked if the rest of us were hearing the kids on the repeater. The guy hearing the kids did not have the RX tone set on his radio. The kids were on simplex channel 17 and the reason he was hearing them and the rest of us weren't was because he did not have his RX tone turned on.

That's basically why I usually don't set RX tones. I want to monitor all traffic on the frequency. If somebody is close by on the repeater output frequency using simplex it could muck up the signal from the repeater depending on the relative strength of the two. It helps to figure out if the garbled reception is due to a repeater issue or someone else on the frequency. If I have the tone set and not watching the channel busy light I might miss what the cause might be since there would be no audio produced from the simplex traffic. 

[WRYZ926]

38 minutes ago, Lscott said:

That's basically why I usually don't set RX tones. I want to monitor all traffic on the frequency. If somebody is close by on the repeater output frequency using simplex it could muck up the signal from the repeater depending on the relative strength of the two. It helps to figure out if the garbled reception is due to a repeater issue or someone else on the frequency. If I have the tone set and not watching the channel busy light I might miss what the cause might be since there would be no audio produced from the simplex traffic. 

I normally run RX tones but will definitely turn them off if I think we are getting some interference on the repeater. I also monitor the repeater input frequency at times. On the hunt for ID10T's. 

We had an ID10T Tuesday night keying up and making noise on our repeater during our net. The hunt is on.

[SteveShannon]

11 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

We had an ID10T Tuesday night keying up and making noise on our repeater during our net. The hunt is on.

Good hunting!